World Cup predictions

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I saw the Dutch three times when I was out there (vs Japan, Slovakia and Brazil) and on each occasion their tricky play prized open stubbon opposition.

For all the noshingoff about the "lovely passing game" the Spanish play they've yet to really dismantle a team (save Honduras) - eeking past a 10 man Chile, an ineffective Portugal and a sadly labouring German team by a single goal. Plucky Paraguay gave them a real test and the Spanish floundered but for the aid of a bizzare series of ricochets off the posts.

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Surely you can say exactly the same as what you said about the Dutch about Spain?

A sadly labouring Germany? An ineffective Portugal? Maybe Spain made them labouring and ineffective? Against Portugal and Paraguay, Spain's "tricky play prized open stubborn opposition". Both Holland and Spain beat a team with a goal rom a corner.

I think the Dutch also had their fair share of lucky breaks, probably more: OG to open the scoring against Denmark, goalie blunder v Japan, goalie blunder / OG / red card v Brazil, deflected goal v Uruguay. I doubt you'll ever find a team that reaches a WC Final that hasn't had a few breaks. In fact I thought Spain were unlucky against Switzerland.

Sounds like you were at some good games - very jealous!

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Originally Posted by endabob1

It was never a penalty, he'd lost control of the ball it would have been ridiculously harsh.

Spain were good, composed, patient and pretty clinical the chance at the end that Pedro should have played in Torres apart, I think they were comfortably the better side. As always you can't score without the ball, the Spanish possession game may not be everyone's cup of tea but it's damned effective.

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I think it's no coincidence that Spain's goals in the KO rounds have all come after 70 minutes (I think). Teams get worn out chasing the ball & "that one chance" always seems to come. They seem to be able to increase the tempo when necessary and there was a 15-20 minute spell early in the second half last night where Germany couldn't contain them - though it could be said that most of thye chances they craeted were shots from 18 yards.

Can't agree with previous posters that it was a brilliant game last night. Spain are a superb team, but they very rarely seem to bother playing. Yes, they controlled possession, yes they completely blunted a very decent German side, but 1 90-minute exercise in keep-ball doesn't make for entertaining football. Spain scored from a set-piece, wasted a couple of other decent chances by trying to walk the ball into the net and didn't in the end of the day create anywhere near as much as their possession and ability deserved. I thought it was a dull enough game to sum up a dull enough World Cup.

The only time Spain have really played, I thought, was when 1-0 down to Switzerland and they had to play; they played some lovely incisive stuff then and were unlucky not to score in that game. Last night was tedium by comparison.

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Originally Posted by elroy

Did anyone else think that was not a peno for Germany?? Couldnt believe the whole panel thought it was.

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The whole of the BBC Panel who showed that the clip on the back of the leg was outside the box (he fell inside). I found it amusing that Dunphy, who had a look at the incident at least 5 times, never noticed this castigated the referee (mind you he didn't give a free at all) and said that he hoped "some clown didn't spoil the Final". Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile!!

I was surprised how dominant Spain was. I think Germany tried to do an Inter Milan. Allow possession to the other side and hit them on the break. If the German chance, when it was 0-0, had fallen to Klose, it might have been a different story. In the second half, when it was 0-0, all the Spanish chances were only half chances with shots from outside the box.

ANyone else notice that not one of the Spanish players sung the national anthem, not even the Real Madrid players. What was that all about?

One other interesting thing I've noticed - taking off star players shortly before the end. Spain took off Villa with ten to go; if Germany had equalised, Spain would have been in extra time with no Villa (who'd scored all bar one of their goals prior to the semis I think?). Uruguay had a right go in injury time at bringing the game to extra time, but they'd have played it without Forlan, and Holland without Robben. Just a random observation.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

ANyone else notice that not one of the Spanish players sung the national anthem, not even the Real Madrid players. What was that all about?

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Might be something to do with the Spanish national anthem having no lyrics. Obviously I'm just guessing here.

I was thinking the same re-late substitutions. Taking a leaf out of Stan's "how to protect a lead in Bratislava" book. At least the Dutch were 2 ahead I suppose, but they still had a major wobble.

Disagree on the quality of the game though. I thought it was gripping. Tight games of utmost importance don't need lots of goalmouth incident. I thought the skill level on display was very high.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

One other interesting thing I've noticed - taking off star players shortly before the end. Spain took off Villa with ten to go; if Germany had equalised, Spain would have been in extra time with no Villa (who'd scored all bar one of their goals prior to the semis I think?). Uruguay had a right go in injury time at bringing the game to extra time, but they'd have played it without Forlan, and Holland without Robben. Just a random observation.

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I find this trend quite staggering also. Its a gamble that could seriously backfire

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Originally Posted by seand

Might be something to do with the Spanish national anthem having no lyrics. Obviously I'm just guessing here.

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Aah, although I heard the fans singing in the background. Must be unofficial lyrics.

FIFA/UEFA must do something some these substitutions in injury time. They totally break up the rhythm of the game near the end and the ref very seldom adds on the correct amount of time. I counted the time they took once and the ref was over 30 seconds short. Not sure what the solution is though. Can't add on extra time because the losing team would then start substituting. Perhaps no substitutions can be made in injury time. Hmmmm, not sure that would work.

any word on who is reffing the final?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Disagree on the quality of the game though. I thought it was gripping. Tight games of utmost importance don't need lots of goalmouth incident. I thought the skill level on display was very high.

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We'll have to agree to disagree so. There's some ball jugglers at UCD games regularly - superb control and some nice tricks. If I want to watch excellent technique on its own, I'll watch them for a while; maybe join in a game of head tennnis with them. In a real game, that's worth nothing without some manner of incision; not lethargic keep-the-ball-till-ye-get-tired stuff. Yes, the skill level was very high, but as you said, the goalmouth action was minimal, and that's where most of the interesting things happen.

It's frustrating more than anything else, I think. I've seen La Liga games with a similar emphasis on ball retention, and I've seen Espanyol use it to absolutely rip through Villarreal, for example (the only La Liga game I've actually been at). That game was a joy to watch. Spain all World Cup have had none of that outside of an occasional spurt here or there. You get the feeling they could destroy any team in the world if they wanted to. Even Brazil 1970. But they just don't want to. It's not gripping, it's not exciting - it's dull.

I think one of the major themes of this WC has been how well drilled everyone is without the ball. Lesser teams than Spain (e.g., Italy) wouldn't have been able to make the breakthrough. They're victims of their own success to a degree because nobody will attempt to play an expansive game against them.

If this was just a regular mid-season league game I'd agree with you. But context is huge - it was as almost as big a game as it gets and there was a fascinating conflict in styles & tactics. Spain's defending was excellent as was their willingness to win the ball back.

I watched footage of 74 and 78 recently & the goalkeeping was laughable, but there were more goals. I know which I'd prefer.

Anyway, happy to agree to disagree as you say!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Spain's defending was excellent as was their willingness to win the ball back.

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The thing that impressed me most about them. Against Portugal Villa & Torres harried the Portuguese back 4 every time they had the ball forced them to play hurried passes that invariably got cut out by Alonso or Busquets (hugely underrated player) they are very much a collective effort both with and without the ball

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I was thinking the same re-late substitutions. Taking a leaf out of Stan's "how to protect a lead in Bratislava" book. At least the Dutch were 2 ahead I suppose, but they still had a major wobble.

Disagree on the quality of the game though. I thought it was gripping. Tight games of utmost importance don't need lots of goalmouth incident. I thought the skill level on display was very high.

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Yes, I agree. Very good game. Probably the best game I've seen in 2010 WC. Did'nt think much of analysis though. What game were they watching? Alonso had a very good game and his contribution was utterly dismissed.
Sad

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Aah, although I heard the fans singing in the background. Must be unofficial lyrics.

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The fans were singing the tune.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

One other interesting thing I've noticed - taking off star players shortly before the end. Spain took off Villa with ten to go; if Germany had equalised, Spain would have been in extra time with no Villa (who'd scored all bar one of their goals prior to the semis I think?)...

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They replaced him with Fernando Torres. Is that really so shocking?

Fernando Torres who's been badly off form all tournament? It's not shocking - that's a bit of tabloidism I don't expect from you - but if you're only 1-0 up with ten minutes to go in a game which could see extra time, I don't think it makes sense to take off the player who's scored all bar one of your goals. When I saw Torres coming on, I assumed it'd be for Pedro, who replaced him in the starting line-up. It just seemed an unnecessary risk to take.

Question re-Germany: does anyone know if any of the German U19 team that beat us 1-0 at Dalyer in 2007 (there was very little between the teams) went on to the winning German U21 team or even the current senior team?

Tets???

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Question re-Germany: does anyone know if any of the German U19 team that beat us 1-0 at Dalyer in 2007 (there was very little between the teams) went on to the winning German U21 team or even the current senior team?

Tets???

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http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...ive&Itemid=355

Just Boateng and Kroos from the senior team.

I don't usually have much time for Tony Cascarino's regular EPL comments in The Times, but I'm glad I read his piece this morning, saying that this has been his favourite WC for 20 years. This is beacuse of the large number of interesting tactical games and the ability of lesser teams to compete with the bigger teams with bigger stars due to fitness, discipline & organisation. That's how I've felt, though I know it's not shared by many here. I'd also add that thankfully there have been none of the ludicrous mismatches we've had in past World Cups. One of the other Times writers was moaning about the WC not being as good as the Champions League. I think it's far more engaging.

I don't like Gabriele Marchotti much either, far too pleased with himself, but I agree with his suggestion that WC play offs should be across regional confederations, though politically it may be hard to push through.

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Originally Posted by seand

Might be something to do with the Spanish national anthem having no lyrics. Obviously I'm just guessing here.

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Just throwing this in as well but I think he may be due to the fact that 7 of the players that started the last game are Catalan.

Im going to throw this out there, does anyone else have a feeling that Holland will sneak this tonight?!?

Spain for me have not come close to reaching the heights of their performances in Euro 2008. Yes they have been impressive but not as much as many of us would have expected.
Holland have a number of serious attacking threats, notably in Robben and Sneider, also Van P (although he is a little out of form).
Spanish defence is not rock solid by any means and I dont feel any team has really got at them just yet. Was particularly disappointed that Germany did not test them more, having said that they have the stand out chance of the game with Kroos when it was still scoreless.
Torres hopefully out of form and no sign of it changing. If he starts 2n, it would be a bad move imo.

There are no lyrcis to the Spanish anthem.

The anthem is still the one that was used under Franco but after his death they decided to get rid of the lyrics.

Can the Dutch win it?
Don't want to back Spain at evens, but Holland at 3-1 is more tempting.
SoI am basically looking for a reason to back Holland.
Actually I think I have found it myself.

Holland are unbeated and have won every match, Spain lost to Switzerland.

So that's good enough to justify a 3-1 shot I think.

Anyway the money is on now so sod it, should make it more exciting, afterall I have to win a bet sooner or later!

( also I think Spain will win, so I am bound to be wrong on that ;))

Will put me in the black if it comes in!!

Looks like Holland are lulling Spain in to a false sense of security - very clever tactics ;)

There's going to be a red in this one; some nasty tackles so far. Five yellows in the first half hour; not a lot else.

As a side note, I see that Denmark's elimination in the first round means that Ireland now hold the record for most appearances at the World Cup, always getting beyond the first round. Previously, us and Denmark had been level on 3.

Just seen my money flash before my eyes again!!
Knew Robin was not going to score!

Wow. That was one of the worst games I've ever seen. Vaguely came to life in extra time, but for a World Cup final, that was pure muck. I'm loathe to use the phrase "disgrace" cos it's very tabloidy, but the Dutch were very much approaching a disgrace. Trying to foul a player, missing and so reaching out to tap the player's boot as well just to make sure he went down. Arguably a suitable final for the tournament though.

Delighted for Spain and Casillas in particular. Two great saves today and you could see what it meant to him in the end.

Disappointed with the overall game. It won't linger in the memory.

Surprised the ref is getting so much abuse, both in the ground and in the studio. Hard to argue with any of the bookings really. If the players are going to be that filthy, the ref just has to keep dishing out the cards. The studio showed a montage of tackles the ref let go, but there were bookings given for half of them.

Poor enough game. First half was brutal altogether, but I thought a few chances livened up the second half, and as the teams tired, extra-time wasn't bad at all.

I felt a bit sorry for Howard Webb, because he obviously doesn't want to send somebody off in a WC final, but he was faced with a Dutch team who were willing to deny Spain space on the ball by any means. I don't really think he could have done much differently. I didn't think Van Bommel's tackle merited a red, but De Jong should have gone for the chest-high boot on Alonso. He got Heitinga's red card right, and probably Robben should have gone for kicking the ball away. I don't know what the Dutch were complaining about for the goal - the BBC seemed to think it was for a possible foul on Elia at the other end, but I thought that was too far away for the Dutch to claim it was somehow leading to the goal.

Overall, it wasn't the most exciting tournament. Some intriguing tactical battles, but some genuinely terrible games as well. I'm happy that the team who tried to play attractive football (even if they didn't always do it consistently) have won the tournament.

I havent seen any World Cups pre-1970, and the ones from then to 86 I've only seen on video / repeat shows, but to my mind this is one of the most insipid and least inspiring teams to lift the World Cup.

7 goals in 7 matches*, for all the "fantastic passing" (90% of it in/around the center circle) this Spanish team is alledged to have exhibited, they've only eeked out a series of 1-0s to get to the final (Honduras apart, and Chile 2-1 equates more or less to a 1-0). The Italians we given a pretty rough time in the press 4 years ago for playing "boring" football to get the final but (aside from not losing a game and scoring more than one per game) I don't see how vastly different they were to the Spanish in terms of attitude.

Fair play to them for beating the teams put in front of them, but I dont think history will recall this team with the splendor of say a 1970 Brazil, 1974 or 1990 Germany, or Argentina of the 1980s.



*8 if you count tonights in extra time

It's interesting to note that in Italia 90, we had some fairly shocking football, and the goals-per-game ratio dropped to 2.2, a new low. Changes were introduced to encourage attacking football - the most notable being the backpass rule - and we got an extra goal every other game and improved tournaments. This World Cup though, we've dropped back down to 2.2 (2.27 technically) and rubbish games, even with some supposedly poorer teams involved - New Zealand, North Korea, Algeria, Slovenia and the likes. I hate using stats to justify rule changes, but you wonder if FIFA will tinker with anything - and indeed if they should tinker anything and what they could tinker with?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's interesting to note that in Italia 90, we had some fairly shocking football, and the goals-per-game ratio dropped to 2.2, a new low. Changes were introduced to encourage attacking football - the most notable being the backpass rule - and we got an extra goal every other game and improved tournaments. This World Cup though, we've dropped back down to 2.2 (2.27 technically) and rubbish games, even with some supposedly poorer teams involved - New Zealand, North Korea, Algeria, Slovenia and the likes. I hate using stats to justify rule changes, but you wonder if FIFA will tinker with anything - and indeed if they should tinker anything and what they could tinker with?

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They could start by getting rid of that tinker Blatter...

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Originally Posted by strangeirish

They could start by getting rid of that tinker Blatter...

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Did you see him looking very uncomfortable when he got stuck in the middle of the Spanish players who had just been presented with the trophy and were celebrating. He looked like an old granny not wishing to be in with these ruffians.

What was with the white scarf he was wearing? Neutral? White supremacy?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Did you see him looking very uncomfortable when he got stuck in the middle of the Spanish players who had just been presented with the trophy and were celebrating. He looked like an old granny not wishing to be in with these ruffians.

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Was Mandela supposed to present the trophy, or was it always going to be Blatter? There seemed to be a lack of coordination to it, but maybe that was because the Spanish players gestured to him to get right into the middle of them to present it.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

What was with the white scarf he was wearing? Neutral? White supremacy?

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Symbolising FIFA's squeaky-clean image?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8881092.stm

Dutch and Spanish fined a total of 15,133 pounds for their behaviour in the final. That'll learn 'em.

Probably the best place for it. FIFA investigating reports that the North Korean manager has been sentenced to six months hard labour and the entire squad interrogated as a result of the poor showing.

Which reminds me to dig up the recommended reading thread...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Probably the best place for it. FIFA investigating reports that the North Korean manager has been sentenced to six months hard labour and the entire squad interrogated as a result of the poor showing.

Which reminds me to dig up the recommended reading thread...

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Did you ever dig it up?

There's a bump!

Did you ever find it? It's in Off Topic somewhere!

I think I'd been reading some good books on North Korea at the time.

Edit - here we go