Whether the government Nationalises Anglo or not they already in the hock for deposit guarantees. Imagine if you put your modest savings into Anglo last year after the guarantee & then you lose the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
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Whether the government Nationalises Anglo or not they already in the hock for deposit guarantees. Imagine if you put your modest savings into Anglo last year after the guarantee & then you lose the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
The continued claiming that they don't know is just as damaging. One of the most dodgy practices uncovered (so far), known about for months by the Government yet they haven't even asked who was involved!Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
They're bound to be developers, so there's bound to be some FF connection. Sure they've already uncovered that Cowen was being wined and dined by the board!
I thought the Regulator investigated Quinn to ensure the money he wa sloaned by Anglo Irish was not used to buy shares in Anglo. Was it decided that was OK because they were not shares but CDs?
Ireland is very small & I can't see how it won't emerge that Ministers crossed paths with the Golden Ten. With the sums of money involved it seems a certainty.
Roisin Shortall was suspended in the Labour uproar. Lenihan made a beeline for the exit as soon as the Ceann Comhairle announced the end of the debate, in the middle of Joan Burton's nagging. Shortall protested, and the government voted to suspend her from the Dail the following morning. She is the second TD to be suspended since the last election.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Whether or not the Government associated with these people is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
What is relevant is that they Government have presided over
1)an individual plundering the reserves of an insurance company for his own uses
2)a CEO of a bank borrowing excessively to invest in deals in which his employer financed (allegedly)
3)a bank giving significant amount of money (non-recourse lending is a loan in name only) to artificially support the share price and bail the individual in 1) above out (allegedly).
All of the above was either contained in monthly returns sent to the Financial Regulator or available upon request.
It's really hard to emphasize how bad this is. And what's worse is that before any of the above happened it was public knowledge and published in the media that Sean Quinn was building a significant stake in Anglo through CFDs.
It's worth reading up on the Guinness Four case from the 80s to see the similarities.
Seems to me that Government are hiding something big on this one, trying to stall it so it comes out way down the the line. They're claiming they can't name them because shareholders aren't allowed to find out about loans, but the circle of 10 also became shareholders, so why can't they name them from that side of the transaction? Also, they're saying they can't name them because they'll be sued - I thought they had Dail Priviledge that prevented them being sued?
imo there's some big skeleton waiting to fall out of this particular closet...
Dail privilege prevents an individual from being sued for something they say in the House, but not the Government they were saying something on behalf of. However the privacy argument is a nonsense and everyone knows it.
Of course there's skeletons. It's Fianna Fail ffs.
adam
More news today. Irish Times quotes:
Who estimated the original 300m & why is it now 450m?Quote:
The total amount of money lent to ten clients of Anglo Irish Bank to buy shares in the bank was €451 million, the bank said today. The total is far higher than the earlier estimates of €300 million borrowed by ten individuals to purchase up to 10 per cent of businessman Sean Quinn’s holding in the bank under contracts for difference.
Oh my, what can you say to that? How can you be a hero taking a loan from the bank to buy (some would say prop up) their own shares & offer guarantees for a fraction of the loan.Quote:
Businessman Ulick McEvaddy has described the so-called golden circle of 10 investors in Anglo Irish Bank as “heroes” who were supporting an economy that is “at war”.
:rolleyes::eek:
That's one possibility. The other is that there's noting to it and the Government is acting shifty to keep the nation focused on an area where they know they're safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It happened during the tribunals that Bertie acted suspicious for months about a particular lodgement in his account, refusing to answer questions and hand over documents. When he reluctantly agreed, the money was a part of his Father's estate which his Mother decided to share out amongst her children.
We have no actual evidence about who these 10 are so I'd be weary to jump to a conclusion. The government has past form in using these type of things as distractions.
Bertie's canny though, for all his (many, many) faults. Biffo's pig ignorant.
4 of the 10 "outed" by the Sunday Times & 2 others seem to be pencilled in.
I have changed my opinion on this & while the 10 are no saints or heroes the State approved their actions. Brian Cowan, the Central Bank & the Regulator should be the focus of the media queries.Quote:
Gerry Gannon, Joe O’Reilly, Seamus Ross and Jerry Conlan are four of the businessmen who secretly bought 10% of Anglo Irish Bank with the bank’s own cash.
The Sunday Times has been able to ascertain that the following businessmen, some of whom have had dealings with Anglo, are not among the 10 investors: Sean Mulryan, Patrick Doherty, Sean Dunne, Derek Quinlan, Denis O’Brien, JP McManus, John Magnier, Noel Smyth, Michael Whelan, Jim Mansfield, Richard Barrett, Johnny Ronan and Fintan Drury.
I would be more inclined to say Bertie is a white collar criminalQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Some of you may find this interesting.
Something I've heard quite a few times over the past month or so is that, allegedly (and my sources are pretty good) since the guarantee and re-capitalisation, there have been regular calls from TDs (Government and otherwise) to senior management in the banks, using the public investment as leverage and asking them to go easy on certain named troubled developers and other businesses.
So I'd take the public pronouncements on chasing the Anglo debts with a large mine of salt...
You won't get any argument from me on that. However there's nothing stopping him being both. The problem isn't his cleverness, it's the Irish wink-and-smirk attitude towards the results. The people that tolerate him are nearly as much to blame as the man himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality Bites
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyauaucwqley/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/anglo.html
Anglo's HQ raid by "fraud squad"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
I know everyone has been calling for this to happen for some time now but is the change in government policy suspicious? Why did it take so long for these raids? Surely there should have been officials in Anglo for the last couple of months to ensure they didn't get busy with the sheeders?Quote:
The raid followed remarks by Transport Minister Noel Dempsey yesterday in which he accused those involved in wrongdoing at the bank of engaging in “economic treason”.
Mr Dempsey said he and his Cabinet colleagues wanted to see the people responsible “pay a price”.
It is almost as if the government have found 10 golden scapegoats to deflect attention from themselves. I must say it is working fairly well so far.
:o
Pete are you suggesting the Gardai and ODCE operate at the behest of Government?
This country has almost no history of complex fraud investigations (tribunals don't count). This is the biggest job the ODCE has tackled by quite a margin, evidenced by the secondment of a large team of gardai to handle the investigative workload.
This is a very positive development IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day and (unfortunately) you can't change the cute hoor culture in one fell swoop. But this is a good first step.
I'd imagine any recriminating evidence is long gone - if it was ever held there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Not sure if its cynicism or paranoia - but anyone else get a stage managed vibe to this "Raid"? :confused:
I've said it many times, the banks know where too many FF bodies are buried (see their less than full disclosures to the tribunals). Anglo is an exaggerated case in point, because it also financed their builder buddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Never mind workers and trade unionists on the street, it's time for a mass protest with a view to a general election.
I don't disagree with what you say, and I hope the Greens re-discover their balls soon and force the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
But I'm not sure the unions can adopt a holier than thou approach, given the FAS debacle shows that when they are in a position of power they get distracted by having their snouts in the trough.
I wouldn't necessarily totally disagree, but then imo social partnership was all about weakening the Trade Union movement. However, I think it's overstated - there's one or two that pop up all over the place as Government appointees.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Off topic, but imo there's definitely a campaign this week to paint the Unions as the bad guy - RTE on Morning Ireland straight on Government message* first thing on Monday with George Lee's rant. I definitely think last week the Government was hiding behing Anglo without naming names, this week it's point at the Unions for what they've done. Just once it's not on them. Shamefully, most of the media and the right wing nut jobs in FG just can't resist.
*If you notice the attitude to Labour politicians after the Irish Times poll as further evidence. They could've been reading Government scrips the way they went after any Labour contributors that week.
*Also, RTE are one of the state bodies exempt from the Pension Levy. They wouldn't want to get the state journalists offside would they?
Surely you are not suggesting the delay was to give them time to reove the evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I firmly believe we now need a General Election. All sides can have a full & frank debate & the people will have their say. It is now the Greens turen but I suppose they need a smoking gun of sorts...
I remember reading an article a few back saying that when banks collapsed in the past (e.g. the US) the bankers raided the safe for IOUs of big customers.These could be "exchanged" at a late date.
No doubt. The people must be allowed to decide the approach that is taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
And the results will indicate whether they want a unity government (as opposed to the suggestion of one without an election to allow FF/ Greens to hide in the long grass while rough decisions are made).
Even if the Greens walked, I think FF would have enough independents on board to have the 83 seats.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I don't think there should be a GE for two reasons.
I don't think FG or Labour or anyone for that matter has any ideas on how to change things around. I doubt anybody really knows what to do about the economic downturn. It's all unchartered water for everyone.
In the 80's there were loads of elections and every time the Gov failed to turn things around, the people voted the opposition in and they struggled as well. If FF go now, FG will come in and they mightn't know what to do and then the people will want FF back in.
I despise FF so I think the longer they stew in this mess and the more their incompetence is to be seen, the more support they'll lose. The more damage FF do for themselves over the next few years, the better.
FF have a plan: Tax, tax, tax, and tax again.
Be it pension taxes, income taxes, airport taxes, car parking taxes, hospital taxes to every single person right across the country, regardless of income. You name it, they've taxed it.
When FG and Labour were last in power, they left office in a healthy state financially, in an export led economy. FF on the other hand decided to bank the state of the economy on the construction industry, and it's associated revenues. Now it's collapsed, everyone has to pay the bill.
Next week, the unemployment figures will reach 350,000 people. Apparantly, the FF priority is to create jobs. How are they creating them? By imposing income taxes on almost every single worker in the country, making it impossible for employers to create jobs, and there are no jobs being created. In the public sector, they announced a public sector recruitment and pay freeze. Then when they finished doing that, they introduced the pension tax on every worker in the public sector. Result: Protests, sit-ins, job losses, industrial disputes.
Everyone has to take the pain. The dole queue people have to live on €200 a week, 10k a year. It covers all personal expenditure, regardless of status. Whether a schoolleaver or a mortgage holder, it's €200 a week. If fortunate to have a job, you're punished for that in the income tax legislation, on top of the standard tax you're already paying. Meanwhile banks are bailed out and nationalised at every turn. Directors and CEO's resign with golden handshakes, while law abiding citizens get the fingers from this government.
There is talk of a national government being suggested. For the sake of democracy and accountability, I resolutely oppose such a proposal. Those in government must be held accountable to Leinster House and this electorate for their actions.
FF have decided to recover the country by taxing everyone in some form. That is not going to stimulate our economy, nor create jobs. Less jobs, means less revenue for the government, and less money spent by the public. Other countries have decided to stimulate their economies by offering tax breaks, and spending programmes. The government hope the economy will continue to stagnate, as they can use it as a selling point to get their precious Treaty passed, that we the people, have already overwhelmingly rejected.
The protest and knock-on effects will not prevent the pension levy bill being passed in the Dail on Thursday. The government don't care about the wishes of the people, they care about votes. As we saw last summer, the only time politicians get upset is when they lose at the ballot box, and FF will continue to wreck the economy until such time as an election is called. Frankly, the Greens are too timid to call FF's bluff, and I can't see an election being called until the current Dail term ends in 3 years time. More misery and hardship for more people on the way.
You're getting it the wrong way round. The problem isn't that FF are going to have to raise taxes, it's that they eroded the tax base so much by relying on consumption taxes rather than income taxes. Taxes will go up whoever wins the election - there's no room for stimulus packages through tax breaks because the tax base is so narrow.
An election would force everyone to produce their 3, 4, 5 year plans for the economy. Most of the problem now is the absence of a plan or a strategy, and a total lack of leadership. People can then decide between the alternatives and take some responsibility for the actions of the Government. I want to see FF die a slow horrible death, but enough is enough - they have to put national interest ahead of their party interest of trying to sit it out in the hope of an improvement.
Meanwhile, in what seems like a parallel universe, Mary Harney has just given hospital consultants huge payrises backdated to January:
Harney agrees pay increase for consultants
Quote:
"Under the new contract some consultants will see their salaries rise by between €50,000 and €60,000."
Not anymore. Finian McGrath is no longer on board, Joe Behan has left FF, Seamus Brennan has died, whilst Beverley Flynn re-joined the party. I think Jim McDaid temporarily lost the whip too, but he could be relied upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Tony Gregory has also died.
The current state of the parties is:
FF 78 - Behan - Brennan + Flynn = 77 - Ceann Comhairle who has not got a vote = 76
Green 6
PD 2
FF-supporting Inds 4 - 2 (McGrath, Flynn) = 2
Total 86
FG 51
Labour 20
SF 4
Non-aligned independents 2 (McGrath, Behan (who would probably support FF)
Total 77
So if the Greens jumped the government vote would be 80 and the opposition vote would be 83 (or possibly 81 govt and 82 opp depending on what way Behan voted). And there are 2 by-elections to come.
Behan has voted with the Government on everything bar the medical card issue. It was nothing but a stunt by him (he wouldn't want to be upsetting all the developers he took donations from).Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
However, you are right - the greens pulling out would effectively bring down the Government. Regardless of the numbers, I don't think they could pull it off nationally, and Healy Rae and Lowry would hardly prop them up under the pressure that'd result would they? The Greens will sit it out until june though, to make sure they get their ministerial pensions - they're loving Planet Bertie.
Anyone hear Mary Coughlan on RTE this morning? She said " I think it's important to say" or "I think it is important to state" at least 11 times in a ten minute piece. PR Bull that the public is getting sick of.
I subcribe to the view of this being a national emergency, we need to put people in place who can at least stop the rot before digging us out of this hole. A General election will not help the issue as it is too acute now, but we need that shower out.......fast.
The only way to get them out is a General Election. We could be voting in 3 weeks, Saturday 3 weeks we'd have the results and a new Government - I doubt the Government will have done anything significant in that time anyway, judging by their inaction since the crap hit the fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
My understanding is that in a recession you would normally increase public spending or offer tax breaks. Unfortunately the massive hole in our Finances means can't use the normal approach.
A General Election would allow all parties to propose their economic plans & we can decide which one we want. At least afterwards the government would have the backing of the majority & the bickering might take a break.
They'd have a mandate to carry out what they were elected on.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
But is that not the day Begg wants us out Marching?? Joking aside, three weeks more of this and you could be looking at a situation where the deposits being withdrawn from the bank at a rate of ten billon in the last week, the same week 7 billon was depostited by Biffo. No one will touch us now never mind in three weeks, who in the right mind would buy a bond in an Irish Bank while this lot and the bankers are in situ. This is getting worse by the day.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Friend of mine sent me this, a bit simplistic but it explains the situation well to the likes of me: http://vimeo.com/3261363
Who do we believe? :confused:
Quote:
Addressing the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service in Dublin today Mr Lenihan also said Irish banks can withstand their losses and have adequate reserves following the Government's recapitalisation plan which see €3.5 billion of capital injected into AIB and Bank of Ireland.
Quote:
Citigroup has suggested that the State’s two largest banks Bank of Ireland and AIB are likely to require a combined total of almost €3 billion in extra capital due to the size of their impaired loans.
Traffic is very definitely lighter in Cork since the start of the year, both myself and the wife have noticed it and we generally travel at completely different times of the day.
adam
Click
Given how bad the state finances it may be difficult to turn down any reasonable offer. I suppose not a bad deal if have 5 billion lying around with government guarantee & recapitalisation. I think 5 billion would buy a large part of Anglo?Quote:
According to RTÉ radio, which did not cite sources, a consortium of Irish and foreign investors have been in discussions with Government and the National Treasury Management Agency about taking a majority stake in Anglo and by investing €5 billion.
Pete, I think you're right that the state of Govt finances will dictate whether it's accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Anglo as a lending institution is done. It's brand is irretrievable. The only potential value left in the business is working through the loans, one by one, and working out the bad ones over a period of many years (seizing collateral etc.). Obviously to make a profit at this, the consortium must value the loanbook higher than the Government.
So whilst Anglo is finished to new business, there certainly is a value to the run-off business.