[QUOTE=Calcio Jack;944545]Post of far off topic & only likely to lead to further replies off topic. Feel free to start a topic on farmers backed up by some facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
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[QUOTE=Calcio Jack;944545]Post of far off topic & only likely to lead to further replies off topic. Feel free to start a topic on farmers backed up by some facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
[QUOTE=pete;944782]Ok I can accept that the post was 'off topic' however it was not a rant which is the reason you gave for editing it... that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned...cheersQuote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
SaveIreland
This crowd look a bit dodgy. One of their posters reads: "What do we want? A white Ireland in a white Europe."
The attitude adopted by SF is really pathetic. Adams came out and said, on the news last night, that a No vote will mean that there'll be no changes to the current EU structure and that the EU will have to go back and re-write it.
What really annoys me about some of the No campaigners is that they are focusing on the effects it will have on Ireland. The Treaty will bring reform across Europe, not only Ireland. If Ireland wants to decide what effects it, the country should opt out of the EU.
But Ireland is a member of the EU and, therefore, we have to think as a group, not as individuals.
That's one of the reasons why I'm voting Yes. The changes will effect all of Europe, not just Ireland.
The people who voted on it in '05 were also thinking about themselves, and not what was great for Cyprus or Poland or Austria.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
Whether you like it or not, people see themselves as x nationality first, European second, and so what happens in their own national parliament means more to them than what happens in Brussels.
That's grand for them but I'm not a Europhobe and to me the Treaty will bring greater democracy to the EU as a whole and that's why I'm voting Yes.
Are you taking the ****? We have to think as a group, not as individuals??? I'll stick with thinking as an individual if that's okay with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
Voting primarily for one's national interest does not necessarily make one a EurophobeQuote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
The way some people are campaigning for the No side, they really are acting like Europhobes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyCakes
superfrank, if you read the very thread you're posting in fully, you'd find at least two federalists that are against this treaty, with explanations. One of them is me. Are you calling me a europhobe?
Perhaps you should go back to the start of the therad and read it fully before tagging people.
adam
I've been dipping in and out of the thread and it appears to be largely a bitchfest between GavinZac and mypost.
My reason for calling people Europhobes is that some, I do believe I said some when I made that statement, are focusing on how it will effect Ireland's sovereignty. These people are reluctant to give into Europe. They give this impression by the way they are going about their campaigns. To me that's Europhobia. It's the kind of argument to be expected in England.
EDIT: Apologies Adam. My post could be construed as generalising all no-voters as anti-Europe.
The little countries, such as Ireland, are the most pro-European, yet this constitution aims to sideline them to being subservient to the power and demands of the big 5 countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
I consider myself pro-European and normally take the yes side in these referendums, but this one is not good for Ireland and Europe in general, and it has to be looked on differently.
I am voting Yes but don't think i could disagree with that. If any one country does not approve this Treaty it is dead & they start again. I don't know if it is enough of a reason to vote Yes but politicians across the EU won't exactly be happy as they process has already taken years of consultation.Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
If you had to find a direct personal advantage to every vote you make then probably would not vote half the time. Indirectly a most effectively administered EU benefits everyone.
I think nearly all the political & lobby groups campaigning for a No vote are serial opponents of the EU so difficult to take seriously. SF would definitely fall into that category. The Greens usually oppose EU Treaties but being in government makes that more difficult - have they actively campaigned for this Treaty?
I don't have a problem with what Adams said. This treaty has already been rejected twice, they need to get the message and rewrite it with constituents and the member countries in mind, not just themselves.
adam
My heart bleeds for them...Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
You've summarized perfectly why I'm voting no. By using the phrase "give in to Europe" you're describing exactly the kind of coercion being used to push a Yes vote through...Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
"If you don't vote yes, then Europe will be cross with us"
If not giving in to that make me a Europhobe, then so be it. It doesn't by the way, you seem have a hopelessly naive, black and white worldview in which everyone is either a happy, tolerant Europhile or a backward, xenophobic Europhobe with no shades of grey inbetween.
Martin Manseragh was trying that line earlier today, I think on Newstalk. Presumably the Dutch and French are scheduled to be thrown out of the union now, since they rejected it in it's previous form. Idiot.
I haven't decided which way to vote yet. There's much I dislike about both sides.
There's a substantial "drift" factor with the Yes side ...as in we MUST vote yes or people on the mainland will be cross with us. A Taoiseach who shrugs that he hasn't read something he demands we vote in favour of doesn't endear either.
Then there's many on the No side I just find odious. Right wing religious groups who see their nice little cat-lick country going down the swanny, Sinn Fein, Libertas -who claim to be pro-European project but use much of the same terminology as British Tory Euro-Sceptics "...Brussels dictat" ..."over in Europe".
When in fact we ARE Europe.
Lionel - I don't know you and mean this with all respect and I know what you mean by the comment in bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
One of the frustrating things about this debate is that it gets played as a "YES" campaign versus a "NO" campaign with no room for informed intelligent nuanced debate. I know that you did not mean what I am accusing the wider electorate of and am just using your comment as a pivot - I am not having a pop.
Both campaigns are full of terrible people practically none of whiom understand or even have read this treaty - it plays in the media as a contest as opposed to the above mentioned nuanced debate on the issues.
Despite almost blanket media coverage over the last few weeks I have struggled to find an intelligent presentation of the facts and issues - but I have seen buckets of op eds one way or the other - and now this tiresome Ganley US military thing - yawnsville.
if only somebody on foot.ie created a post on Democracy and the Intelligent Electorate......
With all yes/no referenda, that will be the case. It happened with abortion, divorce, Nice, immigration, etc, and here as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus
Well having seen the biased voting displayed towards Eastern bloc countries to themselves in the Eurovision last night...it's plain to see that nothing west of the Rhine stands a chance (albeit IMO on this occasion we deserved nothing) I'll be voting 'no' as it's one thing to get nil points in a poxy Eurovision contest...it will be a different matter were we to dilute our current strenght (veto etc) by signing up to the Lisbon treaty and allow the newbies to have a level playing field...' what we have we hold' is now my mantra.... and I make no apology for that