Rovers Win

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Originally Posted by onceahoop

I also wonder what their trustees think about their assets being in so much jeopardy.

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I'd say most of the funds are Kennedy's own dosh and that of the Dublin County Board.

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

The reason that Thomas Davis's brazen land grab attempt will have the unthinking, kneejerk support of so many is that they are seen as carrying the cultural standard for all that is distinctive about being Irish

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Correct. 95 per cent of journalists (who tell the great unwashed what to think) believe that the GAA can do no wrong, because..... well, because they're the GAA. Hardly very logical - but true. The GAA openly abuse this blind trust stupidly placed in their organisation and are forever pushing out the boundaries of brass-necked, self-serving arrogance to see what they can get away with. It doesn't say much for Ireland that so many journalists go along with this farce. Even a journalist like Pat Kenny who regards himself as being capable of insightful analysis won't allow anyone say anything negative about the GAA. I wonder what's in it for him. Corporate box at Croke Park whenever he feels like it perhaps...?

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Originally Posted by khoop

The GAA openly abuse this blind trust stupidly placed in their organisation and are forever pushing out the boundaries of brass-necked, self-serving arrogance to see what they can get away with. It doesn't say much for Ireland that so many journalists go along with this farce.

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Agree

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Originally Posted by hoopy

I'd say most of the funds are Kennedy's own dosh and that of the Dublin County Board.

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What is the rough extent of this nutjob's personal finances, anyway? Any chance of him bringing himself to bankruptcy or is the DCB underwriting him indefinitely?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

If you can't handle that the Irish language is irrelevant to today's Irish culture I'd suggest moving to the gaeltacht and shutting yourself off for the grant aid the "culture".

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Move to the Gaeltacht? But I speak Irish every day at home in West Dublin and at work in Dublin City. I consider my daughter and my job to be highly relevant and I interact with both in Irish. I read literature and academic texts in Irish (amongst one and a half other languages); I listen to some music from the Irish-language canon; I listen to decent political and cultural programming in Irish on the radio; and I watch the odd bit of over-rated trash in Irish on the telly -- all from the suburban comfort of Lucan.

Furthermore, the Gaeltacht is, by and large, riddled with culchies and I can't drive.

If you can't handle that Irish is a part of daily life for other people and that they consider it a part of Irish culture then I'd suggest, well, staying wherever it is that you are.

(I was only riling you in the earlier post, by the way. Your noble stance against these sacred cattle has been shown in past debates in the other forum to be absolutely immovable and fair balls to you for that.)

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Originally Posted by khoop

Even a journalist like Pat Kenny who regards himself as being capable of insightful analysis won't allow anyone say anything negative about the GAA.

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In fairness to Pat Kenny (I never thought I'd type those words!), I heard him have a right go at some GAA head a few years ago about opening up Croke Park - Kenny cut through the bluster and put it to him that it was all about keeping 'the Brit sports out'

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

BohDiddley, that's anti-GAA to dizzying new heights of inventiveness. The bar has been set.

The GAA doesn't do enough substantively for the Irish language for my liking, but I'm hard to please like that. Your rant in that direction wouldn't be as ridiculous, though, if the FAI had ever even paid the lippiest of lip-service in comparison. I must assume, therefore, that your picture of a football-playing, bilingual utopia free of the interference of the GAA is meant ironically.

The football-playing demographic in this country is far, far more anti-Irish language than the GAA demographic. You admit as much yourself. Seeing as we know that football has become the number one participation sport in this country, it would be far easier to use your methodology to construct an argument (à la 'decline of pirates vs global warming') that would illustrate the overwhelmingly anglicising effect of playing association football.

In the places where the Irish language remains the vernacular of the people -- where the people have no particular need, you would imagine, to embrace the manufactured sacred cows of nationalism in an insecure fretting about their cultural identity -- the sport of the community is, overwhelmingly, Gaelic football. (There are logistical reasons for this as well -- e.g., the topography of the crap land where the native language and culture survived the longest mitigating against modern hurling -- but the fact remains.)

If there is a central thrust to your argument, possibly to the effect that Irish people are complete chancers, it gets a little bit lost amongst the breathless run of digs against this inferior code, which seems to be your real bugbear (and by the way, people are paid megabucks for ludicrously hopping a ball as they run, in the States in particular, and an international sport has been made out of it -- and they're not even allowed to kick it).

I do like the implication that GavinZac represents the great cultural failure of the Irish state, though.

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GZ, while stating the profoundly obvious -- well, of course it's anti-GAA! -- you still haven't even managed to get within the corner flag on this.

The thesis is that it is the GAA, which spuriously has taken on the mantle of protector of all things Irish, on balance has done the language more harm than good. The FAI has no role in relation the language, nor, of course, should it, although there is something wonderfully perverse about watching the beautiful game on TG4. Who said postmodernism was dead?

You take issue with the cobbled-together, makey-uppy, rammed-down-our-throats-at-school, massively promoted national sporting onanism (hope that's breathless enough for you) that is GAA football being called inferior. Isn't it?

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Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Completely false

Nobody wants to speak Irish? Well if thats the case my friends from galway and west kerry must be insane if they think in Irish and consider it their first language.

My post, you are entitled to your opinion but you dont speak for everyone. Maybe alot of people in dublin but theres 31 other counties in this country.

I have been watching TG4 all day (review of the year in football and hurling and pop 4) I understand it clearly.

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I don’t mind the Irish language. I don’t know it and have no interest in knowing it, but I do believe it would be a shame for an old minority language like this to be lost in history.

The problem I see with people using this language in work is purely a communicational problem. If I crossed the border into Ireland and went down to Dublin(or anywhere else in Ireland) and they communicated to me in Irish I would have a big problem due to I cannot speak or understand the language at all.(I go to Ireland for work fairly regulary)

As a man from Northern Ireland and a Protestant Unionist, I do no understand what GAA has to do with the Irish language being less and less used. I also do not understand the contempt people have towards the GAA as they are very much a Pro Irish organisation(although from where I am from it is viewed more as an Anti-british organisation more than a Pro Irish Organisation)

Can a mod please split this thread into off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

I don’t mind the Irish language. I don’t know it and have no interest in knowing it, but I do believe it would be a shame for an old minority language like this to be lost in history.

The problem I see with people using this language in work is purely a communicational problem. If I crossed the border into Ireland and went down to Dublin(or anywhere else in Ireland) and they communicated to me in Irish I would have a big problem due to I cannot speak or understand the language at all.(I go to Ireland for work fairly regulary)

As a man from Northern Ireland and a Protestant Unionist, I do no understand what GAA has to do with the Irish language being less and less used. I also do not understand the contempt people have towards the GAA as they are very much a Pro Irish organisation(although from where I am from it is viewed more as an Anti-british organisation more than a Pro Irish Organisation)

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Good post. I'll pick you up on "old minority language" though. It's an old majority language, but a current minority language.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Can a mod please split this thread into off-topic.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by pól-dcfc

Good post. I'll pick you up on "old minority language" though. It's an old majority language, but a current minority language.

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"minority" is generous. More like "novelty".

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

"minority" is generous. More like "novelty".

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It's not a novelty in some parts of the country.

Novelty implies "newness" anyway. So it is definitly not a novelty language.

Hmmm, some interesting points being raised, although I'd lump the whole Celthick phenomenon in with the tokenism Irishness/plastic Paddy brigade as well. I think it's valid to say that the GAA has become an outlet for this expression of nationalism/"Irishness", although whether it is directly at the expense of the language is another question. It may even be that without the GAA, the League of Ireland would become the relevant outlet, while personally I would suggest that the language (requiring work and intellectual effort) would be way down the list of the possible expressive media.

On the Irish in GAA point, the organisation should be commended for some efforts to aid the language, although the half-hearted manner in which it is frequently promoted does the language little favours.
For example, the de rigeur acceptance speech (Tá an áthas orm...) is now about as ubiquitous as "An bhfuil cead agam dul amach..." and is an unthinking mantra rather than a genuine acceptance as gaeilge.
As another example, the rulebook of the GAA is available in both English and Irish versions. Should a disagreement over the meaning of a rule occur, then the Irish version shall take precedence over the English version. However, the Irish version of the rulebook is seldom published!

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

What is the rough extent of this nutjob's personal finances, anyway? Any chance of him bringing himself to bankruptcy?

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Not too sure about his exact wealth(he obviously has a few bob) but the bankruptcy thing is a nice thought :D He works for KPMG so I wonder have they seen any negative publicity over this. I know a lot of Hoops sent emails to them a while back.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

(although from where I am from it is viewed more as an Anti-british organisation more than a Pro Irish Organisation)

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It was set up to compete with the british sports, that were being played here at the time, that the Irish were not allowed to play by british snobs. That could be a bit of both pro-Irish AND anti-brit.

And they way they bang on about "Foreign Sports" (an expression I hate) gives me the same viewpoint as your own. They should just change the term "Foreign Sports" to "British Sports" or "Competitor Sports" as it looks like they want to stage another grid iron game on their hallowed turf.

Just as an aside to the Irish language debate, I was one of over a dozen Hoops in Stockholm the night of the Rovers-Bohs' FAI Cup game two years ago. The Hammarby lads, impressed that we honoured our commitment to go to Sweden for an international fans' get-together despite the fact that we were playing our biggest rivals, organised it so that the TG4 transmission showed in a pub so that we could catch the game and they could support us.
The pub was packed with fans of not just Hammarby and Rovers, but also Spanish, Swiss and other nationals and no one was surprised that the game was covered as gaeilge. Indeed, many of them asked about the language and were shocked when informed that most Irish people can't speak their own language. It was embarrassing, especially in a country where most locals have excellent English but (obviously) use Swedish as their primary form of communication.
I'm proud to be Irish but ashamed that we treat our own language with contempt.

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

The thesis is that it is the GAA, which spuriously has taken on the mantle of protector of all things Irish, on balance has done the language more harm than good.

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But you didn't show how. You didn't balance the good against the harm at all.

You also said way, way more than that and used some fairly high-level hyperbole. You said that just as all victors absorb the culture of the vanquished, the GAA's unstoppable machine had enveloped the Irish language, the erstwhile essence of the nation. Rhetorical nonsense.

You said "They use the language to make themselves Irish, but it is the language, not the modern invention of Gaelic football, that is essentially Irish". That doesn't make any sense, unless you are praising the GAA: if it is the language that is essentially Irish, then no wonder it is the language that they use to make themselves Irish. The modern invention of Gaelic football is left hung out to dry there in that sentence.

You then make a few good standard points, a few rousing old favourites, about the GAA hierarchy and football, but then you return to the shaky ground of your language theme and say that the GAA "has filled the void left by the language, which is, or was, essential to being Irish, and it has taken up the energy and imagination that otherwise would have gone into our real culture".

Indeed?

Putting aside the dodgy statement that there was any "void left by the language" to fill (the fact that the language has not yet left the building, the fact that the number of counties with any native speakers of athletics-playing age has changed only a tiny amount since the foundation of the GAA, and the questionable extent to which the Irish people viewed the language as essential in the 150 years up to the foundation of the GAA) I'd like to hear more about the opiate effect of the GAA's unstoppable machine on the cultural energy and imagination of the masses, and in particular how its members are less involved in these directions than they would otherwise have been.

How are the rest of the country getting on in that regard, for example? I mean the ones from communities uninfiltrated by the GAA, or the ones who saw that their sham nationalism would detract from their own honest Irishness. Show, or even hint at, the heightened instances of appreciation of "real culture" and/or appreciation of all things Gaelic amongst these non-GAA people and I might believe you. Or is your point that there is no real culture left for the non-GAA people as all the energy and imagination that would have gone into it has been taken up by the GAA?

And all of this, incidentally, coming after you say that there are plenty of Gaeilgeoirs in the association -- more than in the population generally -- and indeed that most of the GAA is probably well-meaning in its attitude to the language!

Was this well-meaning majority part of the unstoppable, all-conquering GAA machine at the time of its enveloping of the language, or were they and the Gaeilgeoirs enveloped along with the language? Or did they develop from within? Are they the ones that enabled the vanquished Irish language to be absorbed...?

Or is it the reality that the majority of the GAA who are (by your estimates) well-disposed towards Irish -- but don't speak it -- are so inclined despite the attitude of the hierarchy of the GAA? Would that not give the lie to your whole argument concerning the insidious effect the hardcore tokenist leadership has had, and indicate that we are dealing in innocent cross-sections of a population in which there are varying degrees of appreciation of the Irish language, independent of the efforts of State or sporting body or cultural institution?

The language of the GAA is overwhelmingly English only because the majority of GAA members you say are well-disposed to the language don't bother their barney learning it or speaking it and they are unmoved by the efforts of the GAA, good and bad, for the language. If this Irish-fond majority wanted to, they would be lapping up every bit of tokenism and craving more.

Would this not indicate that your argument is a spurious but fabulously imaginative stick to beat the GAA with?

Speaking of which, I fail to understand the exact logic of your complaint that the GAA have some cheek putting Irish names on the clubhouses where their members -- of whom you reckon a higher percentage are Gaeilgeoirs than of the population at large and the majority of whom you reckon are well-disposed towards Irish -- gather. Can it really be that you think this is bad because "most of those living nearby can hardly pronounce them"? That is outstanding anti-GAA straw-graspery.

And I'd like -- honestly -- to hear more about how, exactly, we could have been a country that played great football and proudly spoke and wrote in our own language and in English. This is the kind of insight the Department of the Gaeltacht are constantly crying out for, even if it is retrospective. (The revival of Hebrew is unique in history and completely dissimilar to any possible Irish situation, but it was a nice dig at US foreign policy.)

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

You take issue with the cobbled-together, makey-uppy, rammed-down-our-throats-at-school, massively promoted national sporting onanism (hope that's breathless enough for you) that is GAA football being called inferior. Isn't it?

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:D Your breathlessness is adequate.

But I think it is possible to prefer a cobbled-together, makey-uppy sport massively promoted on a worldwide basis to a cobbled-together, makey-uppy sport massively promoted on a national basis without necessarily thinking either to be superior or inferior.

It is precisely the usage of such words unsuited to the description of sports (though not, perhaps, languages ;) ) as 'inferior' or 'foreign' that causes trouble, no?

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

But you didn't show how. You didn't balance the good against the harm at all.

You also said way, way more than that and used some fairly high-level hyperbole. You said that just as all victors absorb the culture of the vanquished, the GAA's unstoppable machine had enveloped the Irish language, the erstwhile essence of the nation. Rhetorical nonsense.

You said "They use the language to make themselves Irish, but it is the language, not the modern invention of Gaelic football, that is essentially Irish". That doesn't make any sense, unless you are praising the GAA: if it is the language that is essentially Irish, then no wonder it is the language that they use to make themselves Irish. The modern invention of Gaelic football is left hung out to dry there in that sentence.

You then make a few good standard points, a few rousing old favourites, about the GAA hierarchy and football, but then you return to the shaky ground of your language theme and say that the GAA "has filled the void left by the language, which is, or was, essential to being Irish, and it has taken up the energy and imagination that otherwise would have gone into our real culture".

Indeed?

Putting aside the dodgy statement that there was any "void left by the language" to fill (the fact that the language has not yet left the building, the fact that the number of counties with any native speakers of athletics-playing age has changed only a tiny amount since the foundation of the GAA, and the questionable extent to which the Irish people viewed the language as essential in the 150 years up to the foundation of the GAA) I'd like to hear more about the opiate effect of the GAA's unstoppable machine on the cultural energy and imagination of the masses, and in particular how its members are less involved in these directions than they would otherwise have been.

How are the rest of the country getting on in that regard, for example? I mean the ones from communities uninfiltrated by the GAA, or the ones who saw that their sham nationalism would detract from their own honest Irishness. Show, or even hint at, the heightened instances of appreciation of "real culture" and/or appreciation of all things Gaelic amongst these non-GAA people and I might believe you. Or is your point that there is no real culture left for the non-GAA people as all the energy and imagination that would have gone into it has been taken up by the GAA?

And all of this, incidentally, coming after you say that there are plenty of Gaeilgeoirs in the association -- more than in the population generally -- and indeed that most of the GAA is probably well-meaning in its attitude to the language!

Was this well-meaning majority part of the unstoppable, all-conquering GAA machine at the time of its enveloping of the language, or were they and the Gaeilgeoirs enveloped along with the language? Or did they develop from within? Are they the ones that enabled the vanquished Irish language to be absorbed...?

Or is it the reality that the majority of the GAA who are (by your estimates) well-disposed towards Irish -- but don't speak it -- are so inclined despite the attitude of the hierarchy of the GAA? Would that not give the lie to your whole argument concerning the insidious effect the hardcore tokenist leadership has had, and indicate that we are dealing in innocent cross-sections of a population in which there are varying degrees of appreciation of the Irish language, independent of the efforts of State or sporting body or cultural institution?

The language of the GAA is overwhelmingly English only because the majority of GAA members you say are well-disposed to the language don't bother their barney learning it or speaking it and they are unmoved by the efforts of the GAA, good and bad, for the language. If this Irish-fond majority wanted to, they would be lapping up every bit of tokenism and craving more.

Would this not indicate that your argument is a spurious but fabulously imaginative stick to beat the GAA with?

Speaking of which, I fail to understand the exact logic of your complaint that the GAA have some cheek putting Irish names on the clubhouses where their members -- of whom you reckon a higher percentage are Gaeilgeoirs than of the population at large and the majority of whom you reckon are well-disposed towards Irish -- gather. Can it really be that you think this is bad because "most of those living nearby can hardly pronounce them"? That is outstanding anti-GAA straw-graspery.

And I'd like -- honestly -- to hear more about how, exactly, we could have been a country that played great football and proudly spoke and wrote in our own language and in English. This is the kind of insight the Department of the Gaeltacht are constantly crying out for, even if it is retrospective. (The revival of Hebrew is unique in history and completely dissimilar to any possible Irish situation, but it was a nice dig at US foreign policy.)


:D Your breathlessness is adequate.

But I think it is possible to prefer a cobbled-together, makey-uppy sport massively promoted on a worldwide basis to a cobbled-together, makey-uppy sport massively promoted on a national basis without necessarily thinking either to be superior or inferior.

It is precisely the usage of such words unsuited to the description of sports (though not, perhaps, languages ;) ) as 'inferior' or 'foreign' that causes trouble, no?

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Who are you and where are you keeping Kingdom Hoop?

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

Just as an aside to the Irish language debate, I was one of over a dozen Hoops in Stockholm the night of the Rovers-Bohs' FAI Cup game two years ago. The Hammarby lads, impressed that we honoured our commitment to go to Sweden for an international fans' get-together despite the fact that we were playing our biggest rivals, organised it so that the TG4 transmission showed in a pub so that we could catch the game and they could support us.
The pub was packed with fans of not just Hammarby and Rovers, but also Spanish, Swiss and other nationals and no one was surprised that the game was covered as gaeilge. Indeed, many of them asked about the language and were shocked when informed that most Irish people can't speak their own language. It was embarrassing, especially in a country where most locals have excellent English but (obviously) use Swedish as their primary form of communication.
I'm proud to be Irish but ashamed that we treat our own language with contempt.

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Spot on. Also ashamed that people like GavinZac and mypost decide to speak for all of us when dismissing Irish as irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Spot on. Also ashamed that people like GavinZac and mypost decide to speak for all of us when dismissing Irish as irrelevant.

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Well said

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

I don’t mind the Irish language. I don’t know it and have no interest in knowing it, but I do believe it would be a shame for an old minority language like this to be lost in history.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

The problem I see with people using this language in work is purely a communicational problem. If I crossed the border into Ireland and went down to Dublin(or anywhere else in Ireland) and they communicated to me in Irish I would have a big problem due to I cannot speak or understand the language at all.(I go to Ireland for work fairly regulary)

As a man from Northern Ireland and a Protestant Unionist, I do no understand what GAA has to do with the Irish language being less and less used. I also do not understand the contempt people have towards the GAA as they are very much a Pro Irish organisation(although from where I am from it is viewed more as an Anti-british organisation more than a Pro Irish Organisation)

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I think you'll find that there is very little contempt for GAA outside alot of dublin, a few other pockets around the country and in Unionist areas in the north.