If Kenny were to select a goalkeeper who was leaking worse than 2 goals a game in the third tier, he'd be rightly criticised. That said keeper is 19 and playing behind a ****e team is grounds to think it's maybe not his final level, but it's hardly evidence that he's ready to face a Real Madrid striker if he even starts ahead of Serbia's other goal machines.
I mean, I outlined why in my post about half a page up. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Not really. You just seem to think a save against Ajax is worth 30 appearances in L1, maybe it is but definitely doesn't pull him closer to Westwood than he is to Bazunu.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Kelleher is 3 years older than Bazunu so of course he's more developed. Bazunu futher developed at 19 than Kelleher was.
Westwood hasn't always been 1st choice at his club this year. Kelleher was trusted by Klopp to play in some very big games and did well so I'd have no worries about his ability to step down from Champions League to play International football. Playing a guy who's never been a top keeper because he's older when the younger guy is probably already better is sh1te, and I would almost guarantee if Kelleher is fit Kenny will pick him
I’ll put it to you this way Del:
Who’s a better keeper, Adrian or Westwood? Answer is probably Adrian. 139 Premier league games to 9. 2 years younger, so closer to his prime.
And yet, Kelleher is considered ahead of Adrian.
I know that’s all a bit simplistic but you get the idea.
As for bazunu, I really don’t think he’s ready yet. He’s very young. He’s eligible for the 21s for the next two campaigns. I’d have him behind the likes of Travers, O’Leary and McDermott anyway. Definitely has potential and he could easily be the best keeper of all our young keepers (money would still be on CK) but he’s still a few years off being in the conversation
I see some posts implying Westwood wouldn’t answer the call. He gave an interview last month indicating that he would come if called.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.the4...b2021/%3famp=1
I didn't mention anything about a save v Ajax?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
As elatedscum hints at, Liverpool's second string is quite strong. We know this because the top 6 sides will regularly make wholesale changes in the cup competitions and yet still do quite well. They'd be a decent second tier side anyway. Kelleher is the second choice keeper now - we know this because Klopp trusts him in a game v Ajax, and Kelleher has repaid that faith this season - so I'd peg him as a decent second tier keeper already. Westwood is a decent second tier keeper too (but I'd give him the nod for 500 games of experience, which we could do with in our squad).
Bazunu is a promising academy player sent on loan to the bottom of the third tier for experience.
Hence Westwood > Kelleher >> Bazunu
Adrian was deemed better than Randolph for the most part too, when they were in direct competition, but Randolph would 100% be starting ahead of Kelleher if fit, so yes, way too simplistic. Neither do I just accept that Adrian is better than Westwood anyway, despite playing at a higher level for longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
The truth is that Kelleher jumped ahead of Adrian because of Adrian! He's been a calamity when called upon for Liverpool, completely unreliable to the point where they decided the young fella couldn't be any worse. That's my take on it anyway.
Nobody is saying Bazunu is ready. I was originally only making the point that the amount of goals he's conceded in a poor team is an unfair metric to judge him by. The fact that he won the fans potm suggests to me that he must be doing something right, supporters don't generally back a guy who's costing them points every week, though I accept it's not an exact science.
I've already said I'd have Travers and Kelleher (narrowly) ahead of him right now. I just haven't been impressed with Kelleher for the most part but happily accept he's taken his rare opportunities this season at least.
Well you mentioned the game, and that save was by far his most important contribution, so forgive me for taking liberties :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I rate Westwood a lot higher than what I think you're giving him credit for. I think he's been a PL standard keeper playing in the Championship most of his career. Indeed he too had the opportunity to sit on Liverpool's bench, he might have even got a chance at the number one spot given their goalkeeping woes for a number of years, but I guess we'll never know how he would have fared.
Anyway, I think we're pretty much in agreement in an overall sense, just not on the finer details of the debate.
I think I'd probably start Kelleher ahead of Randolph even if they were both fit at this stage. They're both PL reserves, it's just one of them is on the upswing of his career. I think Randolph is only in the way at this stage however experienced he is.
In fairness though, if you're going to read what I've posted and then the only takeaway is something I didn't even say, then it doesn't really help a discussion!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Westwood being linked with Liverpool (6 years ago) kind of backs up the point that he and Kelleher are closer matched than Kelleher and Bazunu.
And I still don't read anything into the PotM award at a team whose only goal in the entire month came when they were 4-0 down; someone had to win the award and it's not necessarily any sort of endorsement.
The only takeaway? We've discussed this at length, every aspect of it. Hardly the only takeaway! Admittedly, I overindulged the point to emphasise how little I think Kelleher has actually done in the game, for you to see him as being closer to Westwood than he is to, basically, a fellow rookie.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It really doesn't. Westwood, as you yourself highlighted, has 500 or whatever senior appearances and was consistently rated as the best, or one of the best goalkeepers in the Championship. Not to mention the 20+ caps for us. It's beyond me how you've concluded that Kelleher is closer to that level than he is to Bazunu to be honest, with the amount of games he's actually played.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Fair enough. Goalkeeper isn't really like any other position though, if you're playing poorly it's highlighted far more and pretty unlikely you'll be selected as the best of a bad lot in my opinion, if that was the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ive kept a close eye on bazunu since he went to rochdale (rovers conection) and saddo that i am i have watched a few of their matches, he has been outstanding in general and given the team in front of him he is getting plenty of practise.
I would be amazed if he isnt playing as a loanee in the championship next year to furthwr his development.
Is he ready to play for ireland ? Its a tough unforgiving position and 19 is very young to throw him in unless there are no viable alternatives. He played in europe for rovers in front of a hostile crowd at 16 and looked very comfortable. If kenny has had someone watching him then inwouldnt be shocked to see him starting. Kennys problem is he is under such pressure that a safe bet on the more obvious older candidates will be the wasy call
Yes - I explained why, in my view, Westwood > Kelleher >> Bazunu, you then replied "How you can think Kelleher is closer to Westwood than Bazunu is to Kelleher is bizarre to me. Come on like", I directed you back to my detailed post, and you summarised it as "You just seem to think a save against Ajax is worth 30 appearances in L1" which isn't at all what I said and ignores everything I did actually say.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
And in this post, you again say "It's beyond me how you've concluded that Kelleher is closer to that level than he is to Bazunu to be honest, with the amount of games he's actually played", so you've again ignored the bits where I gave my reasons, based in part on how they're judged by two of the top managers in the world (Klopp and Pep). While I'll tip Westwood over Kelleher on the basis of experience, I'm basing my general comparison on ability and where they're playing, not how many games they've played. As I've said, Liverpool's second string are comparable to a decent second tier side at least, which we know from cup results.
On the contrary - make a couple of good saves in a team where nothing else is happening, and that can get remembered even if you were at fault for a couple of goals. We're not talking dropping the ball into the net here; we're talking more subtle errors like hesitation, bad decision-making, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Fine, I don't think your explanation is all that credible though. We simply don't know enough about Kelleher's ability yet. You're making the assumption that because he plays for Liverpool's second side that he must be at that level, but we don't really know yet because he's played so little. He didn't look that level when he played last season, this season has gone better but it's a very small sample size.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Most on here wanted him to go out on loan as Bazunu has done. Pep obviously feels this is the best thing for Bazunu right now. Maybe Klopp would have felt the same about Kelleher had Adrian not consistently flunked his auditions, but he ended up needing him more. I'm not sure we can draw conclusions that this means Klopp rates Kelleher higher than Pep rates Bazunu, or anything like that, the situations are just different.
Possibly. I still think winning the award means something, a small positive and worth pointing out when you highlighted the amount of goals he'd conceded.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If Keleher is playing at Liverpool than he is good enough to be there based not on the few matches we have seen him play but on the dozens upon dozens of training games and reserve games they have watched him develop in.
Clubs ruthlessly cut young players where they have any doubts.
We are lucky to have two very good young options for the future Keleher and Bazunu are on a different level to the rest.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
The assumption that "because he plays for Liverpool's second side that he must be at that level" is a very valid one because Klopp is one of the best managers in the world and Liverpool are one of the best clubs in the world, and neither would allow a reserve goalkeeper to simply arrive at that position by accident.
Also, on the reference to games he played last season - again, that's a year ago and more now. It's not hugely relevant in the context of a developing goalkeeper. He's played five first-team games this season and hasn't let them down once.
He persevered with Mignolet for years despite being nowhere near the required level. He then replaced him with Karius who arrived at Champions League final level, and cost them the game, never to be seen again.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think it's relevant in the context that it wasn't anything brilliant Kelleher did, certainly in the matches he played, that elevated him above Adrian. If Adrian was anyway adequate Kelleher would still be third choice, so what level would that put him at? Listen it's great that he's highly rated and that he's stepped up when required this season. I just don't think there's a lot to go on yet and, as I said, he hasn't impressed me even with our U21's, which should absolutely be his level.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Westwood is the safer option. We are talking about a goalkeeper. One mistake and we could lose. Kelleher is the future but Westwood for me against serbia
Equally though, Pineapple, me auld fruit, these youth players on the fringes at big clubs and not amounting to anything at all are hardly without example ? remember Richie Partridge at the very same club, darling of the reserves, bit of first team and then a plummet. The game is littered with them, and that key final part from best in development class to first team option, and then onto first team established player with international potential is one many do not make.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Its a huge call for SK, but for me its Westwood because at this moment, in this game, at this juncture in their respective careers he edges the percentages over Kelleher in as much as we know what we have in him. We only hope we know what Kelleher is as yet.