Where might new clubs come from?

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Originally Posted by joey B

The way the tweet I seen about this was worded it appears if the new Wexford team gets a licence the old one won't be in the league!

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How on earth could a brand new club in Wexford be considered for a league licence when the existing club is barely scraping by?

Surely new investors should be required to prove their credentials by buying (or at least buying into) the existing club and making something of it?

Unless their thinking is that if they set up a rival club, that will finish off the existing club, leaving the whole show to themselves.

Which may make sense from a purely selfish pov, but surely the LOI/FAI shouldn't be complicit in that sort of carry on i.e. messing about with the game in the town/county?

I know I've said similar before, and I'm really not looking to have a dig at anyone, but IL clubs looking towards an AIL should be very concerned by the maladministration of league football in ROI before staking their own future on it.

Or at least wait to see whether the new regime at Abbotstown can sort things out before committing.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

How on earth could a brand new club in Wexford be considered for a league licence when the existing club is barely scraping by?

Surely new investors should be required to prove their credentials by buying (or at least buying into) the existing club and making something of it?

Unless their thinking is that if they set up a rival club, that will finish off the existing club, leaving the whole show to themselves.

Which may make sense from a purely selfish pov, but surely the LOI/FAI shouldn't be complicit in that sort of carry on i.e. messing about with the game in the town/county?

I know I've said similar before, and I'm really not looking to have a dig at anyone, but IL clubs looking towards an AIL should be very concerned by the maladministration of league football in ROI before staking their own future on it.

Or at least wait to see whether the new regime at Abbotstown can sort things out before committing.

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It's essentially the exact same thing that has happened throughout the history of football. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.
People don't like how their local team is being run so set up an opposition club to compete with them that's what happens, it's nothing unique to LOI nor a stick to bash anyone with.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

It's essentially the exact same thing that has happened throughout the history of football. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.
People don't like how their local team is being run so set up an opposition club to compete with them that's what happens, it's nothing unique to LOI nor a stick to bash anyone with.

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Except that when you don't like an existing club, and so set up a new one in competition, you don't act like a cuckoo, oust the other chicks and take their place in the nest.

Rather you should be expected to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work your way up to your proper level.

You know, like eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester are having to do.

Alternatively, you could buy a local club and have a go from whatever level they were already at. You know, like eg those Man U guys did with Salford FC.

Either way, it requires new guys to prove they know what they're doing before they are let loose on senior football.

And if they're not prepared to do that, then let them buy, or buy into, the existing club, as happens the world over.

Of course, we all know there's no pyramid in the LOI, but the answer is to sort that out, rather than just throwing existing licences into the air and hoping they land right way up.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Except that when you don't like an existing club, and so set up a new one in competition, you don't act like a cuckoo, oust the other chicks and take their place in the nest.

Rather you should be expected to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work your way up to your proper level.

You know, like eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester are having to do.

Alternatively, you could buy a local club and have a go from whatever level they were already at. You know, like eg those Man U guys did with Salford FC.

Either way, it requires new guys to prove they know what they're doing before they are let loose on senior football.

And if they're not prepared to do that, then let them buy, or buy into, the existing club, as happens the world over.

Of course, we all know there's no pyramid in the LOI, but the answer is to sort that out, rather than just throwing existing licences into the air and hoping they land right way up.

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Let's get a couple of things straight.
This new club aren't looking to out Wexford FC, people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true but the new club aren't looking to oust them.

They are starting at the equivalent level of FC United and Wimbledon. The lowest level of senior football, just happens in Ireland we only have 2 divisions and not the 9-11 they have in England. Do you actually know how the levels work in football?

To buy local is one option but its not an option when your issue with the original club is its governance.

The prove they're capable is the whole point of licensing, if they're deemed to be going about it all in the proper way they'll get a licence, if not they won't, its really that simple.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

. It's the entire basis of many derbies Inter vs AC being the most notable.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true

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Damn it, my hopes are dashed.

I was really looking forward to the Associazione Calcio Wexford V Internazionale Wexford derby

Death, Taxes, Ez being selectively obtuse

There are already some ridiculous names in Ireland. Real Tubber and Dynamo Blues are two that come to mind

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Ferrycarraig Park could work for Wexford with a good bit of community effort. Buses out of the town would be a start for this new investor.

It's been said over and over again though, better access into Ferrycarraig from the main road would make life a whole lot easier.

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I know that we tried this temporarily over 20 years ago and there wasnt much uptake on it. I did take it up when I used to socialise before matches that season but it didnt last for long at all. Mind you club didnt try hard enough to advertise it. Have to agree with you on Ferrycarraig the amount of times I got lost on junction and missing the turn after it before ground from E.corthy making wrong turn!

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Ferrycarraig Park could work for Wexford with a good bit of community effort. Buses out of the town would be a start for this new investor.

It's been said over and over again though, better access into Ferrycarraig from the main road would make life a whole lot easier.

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I can't see buses helping much, better than not doing them at all of course but I think having the ground in the town is more about being in peoples minds. Out of sight out of mind is very much a thing for smaller clubs (which is every club in the LOI).

It's cliche but the old thing of kids walking/driving by and asking their parents what that is and then asking can they go when their parents say it's a football ground is an underrated tool for getting people through the gates.
Then your teenagers aren't gonna want to get on a bus to a game cause it wouldn't be cool and that's the age you either get a fan for life or lose them.
Plus the obvious need for pints, want to be able to come and go at convenience, etc, think a ground in the town for LOI clubs is essential where possible.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Death, Taxes, Ez being selectively obtuse

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/f6...0828c92db8.jpg

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Let's get a couple of things straight.
This new club aren't looking to out Wexford FC, people are assuming there won't be more than one club given a licence in Wexford which is probably true but the new club aren't looking to oust them.

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From the local press (which admittedly doesn't seem to know more than anyone else):
"It also remains to be seen if the League of Ireland would be willing to grant a licence to a 2nd Co.Wexford based team. This is unlikely. Therefore if this new group were to put forward a proposal for a new club, it is likely a battle would ensue to secure a licence between the existing club and the new group."
https://wexfordtoday.com/2020/06/22/...-a-crossroads/

Anyhow, there will either be two licences awarded to Wexford or there won't.

If it's the former, then good luck with the town supporting two senior clubs:
("[Wexford FC have] an average league attendance of approximately 100 people per game") apparently.

And if it's the latter, then this new crowd would have to get it if they're to join the LOI.

Personally I can't figure out which is the sillier.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

They are starting at the equivalent level of FC United and Wimbledon. The lowest level of senior football, just happens in Ireland we only have 2 divisions and not the 9-11 they have in England. Do you actually know how the levels work in football?

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No they're not and yes I do.

The equivalent would be if AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester were parachuted into League Two of the EFL i.e. the lowest tier of senior football. They weren't.

AFCW had to work their way up through the feeder leagues with five promotions before they even got to the lowest level of senior football.

And after four promotions of their own, FCUM were still another two short of senior football (the EFL), before they fell back a level.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

To buy local is one option but its not an option when your issue with the original club is its governance.

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So just because someone cannot enter the system by any of the conventional routes, then you invent another one just for them?

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

The prove they're capable is the whole point of licensing, if they're deemed to be going about it all in the proper way they'll get a licence, if not they won't, its really that simple.

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How does saying:"We've got a bit of money and we want to invent a new club in a town which is struggling to support the existing one, so can we have their licence please?" "prove" anything?

Other than the inadequacy of the licencing system.

Or has no-one learned from previous disasters, of which there have been more than one or two?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No they're not and yes I do.

The equivalent would be if AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester were parachuted into League Two of the EFL i.e. the lowest tier of senior football. They weren't.

AFCW had to work their way up through the feeder leagues with five promotions before they even got to the lowest level of senior football.

And after four promotions of their own, FCUM were still another two short of senior football (the EFL), before they fell back a level.

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In the English system their equivalent of senior football carries all the way down the leagues to step 7.
What you're getting confused by is the fact its called Football league and non league which is purely a historical reason because until the 80s there wasn't an official connection between the two and they still had elections to decide who went down/came up.
They are now all joined up and the historical names have stuck in general use but every step is considered "Senior" football.

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So just because someone cannot enter the system by any of the conventional routes, then you invent another one just for them?

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It's the lowest rug of the ladder connected to the main national league, exact same process as in England.

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How does saying:"We've got a bit of money and we want to invent a new club in a town which is struggling to support the existing one, so can we have their licence please?" "prove" anything?

Other than the inadequacy of the licencing system.

Or has no-one learned from previous disasters, of which there have been more than one or two?

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It's not a case of we have money, licencing involves submission of a business plan effectively, just because the licencing hasn't been done properly in the past doesn't mean that what needs to be submitted isn't there.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

In the English system their equivalent of senior football carries all the way down the leagues to step 7.
What you're getting confused by is the fact its called Football league and non league which is purely a historical reason because until the 80s there wasn't an official connection between the two and they still had elections to decide who went down/came up.
They are now all joined up and the historical names have stuck in general use but every step is considered "Senior" football.

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AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

It's the lowest rug of the ladder connected to the main national league, exact same process as in England.

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There are 11 officially defined levels of football with Promotion and Relegation up and down in the pyramid in England, with (literally) dozens more leagues/levels below them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englis..._league_system

AFCW and FCUM entered at the highest level which would accept them i.e. they were barred from entering even the higher levels of non-league, never mind the EFL.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

It's not a case of we have money, licencing involves submission of a business plan effectively, just because the licencing hasn't been done properly in the past doesn't mean that what needs to be submitted isn't there.

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As Eric Morecambe used to say: "You can't argue with that..."

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.

There are 11 officially defined levels of football with Promotion and Relegation up and down in the pyramid in England, with (literally) dozens more leagues/levels below them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englis..._league_system

AFCW and FCUM entered at the highest level which would accept them i.e. they were barred from entering even the higher levels of non-league, never mind the EFL.

As Eric Morecambe used to say: "You can't argue with that..."

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The leagues below that do not have automatic promotion/ relegation to the first step which is why they're not included in the steps. They're the equivalent of the LSL, MSL, etc.

Both AFC Wimbledon and FC United joined the ladder at the lovest rug for their area. (AFC Wimbledon joined the same year the league expanded but were placed into the existing division in the restructuring so really if anything they disprove your theory because they essentially skipped a league over existing clubs who had demonstrated their ability to run themselves previously.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

AFCW had to enter at the 9th tier and FCUM at the 10th.

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Whilst I don't think references to clubs in England has any real relevance to this discussion, to be clear on what happened these clubs.

They didn't HAVE to join at those levels. Rather those were the levels that agreed to have them. Had they persuaded any league further up the non-league pyramid to accept them, then they would have gone in at a different level. Wimbledon in particular were annoyed not to get accepted into the Isthmian League and so had to start at the Combined Counties level instead. I suspect had the Isthmian taken the new club more seriously, and its ability to draw fans, then they would have accepted them in from the start.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

The leagues below that do not have automatic promotion/ relegation to the first step which is why they're not included in the steps. They're the equivalent of the LSL, MSL, etc.

Both AFC Wimbledon and FC United joined the ladder at the lovest rug for their area. (AFC Wimbledon joined the same year the league expanded but were placed into the existing division in the restructuring so really if anything they disprove your theory because they essentially skipped a league over existing clubs who had demonstrated their ability to run themselves previously.

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Sorry, but this isn't accurate either. WFC and FCUM didn't join at the lowest rung for their area. The football pyramid in London/Surrey in particular has significantly more rungs below where AFC joined. Rather they went in at the highest level which was persuaded to have them. It's that simple. Hence they both started at different tiers, not at the same standard. Start a club yourself in southwest London and see how much luck you have trying to enter the pyramid at Level 9 :)

Though again, those 2 clubs are NOT in any way relevant to the situation in Ireland.

Can I just advose a wee bit of caution on this whole Wexford thing.

It's not unusual to hear someone claiming that they're going to have club X or Y enter the LOI. Admittedly it is unusual to have it in a small town where there is already an existing LOI club, but I think the general point still stands that it's best to treat such claims with a pinch of salt until something more substantial comes of it. Otherwise we'd probably have a league twice as big as it is now with all the talk there's been over the years.

Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Sorry, but this isn't accurate either. WFC and FCUM didn't join at the lowest rung for their area. The football pyramid in London/Surrey in particular has significantly more rungs below where AFC joined. Rather they went in at the highest level which was persuaded to have them. It's that simple. Hence they both started at different tiers, not at the same standard. Start a club yourself in southwest London and see how much luck you have trying to enter the pyramid at Level 9 :)

Though again, those 2 clubs are NOT in any way relevant to the situation in Ireland.

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They went in at the lowest level in so far as that the leagues below aren't actually connected to it they're feeder leagues and clubs are elected up a league if they with rather than promoted.
Obviously normally leagues have licencing criteria that can block a promotion the "application" for promotion is still automatically processed while for election to a league things are a bit different. That's what I mean by lowest rug on the ladder.

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Originally Posted by Bucket

Does anyone know what the intermediate leagues opinions are on a pyramid structure or has the FAI ever tried to implement one?

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All the clubs big enough to make a jump like being a big fish in a small pond and will do anything to protect that while other clubs aren't big enough to be bothered