Rule 42 Discussion

The whole idea of money is a smokescreen like any negotiations you state your opening offer and if its done through the press there is even more bravado. LIke union negotions or political ones its all the same. Even if there was a problem with the money sought after by the Gaa and money sought after by the Fai or Irfu, do you not think that the Govt could pick up the 500,000 or whaterver it is shortfall, They woudl get it back by keeping the match in Ireland anyway. Rugby and Soccer will be played in Croke Park and it will happen for the next qualifiers and for the Six Nations in 2007.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

The FAI will benefit by using a redeveloped Lansdowne but it is owned by the IRFU and there will probably be a greater charge for using it.

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Think you need to read this before you comment further.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The GAA will still be able to charge a premium on the rent as the F.A.I. could not be sure of filling Old Trafford or even Anfield. They will sellout Croke Park no problem..

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I am not sure that even with Block Booking CP would be sold out for every game. We're talking about 70,000? (82000 less 12000 for the Hill). Maybe for the top 4 or 5 teams (Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland and you have to include England) yes you would, but we would be lucky to get 50,000 for the likes of Cyprus, Georgia and Faroes, at least one or two teams will be in that category.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The real losers if home football and rugby games went to Britain would the greater Dublin economy. The government cannot allow this to happen. The F.A.I. cannot be seen to move abroad and also still expect government funding for Lansdowne...

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Nothing to do will football/rugby. The FAI/IRFU cannot be expected to 'do the right thing' if the sums don't add up. There are only two choices (i) the Govt. 'subsidises' the rental of CP to protect the economy or (ii) the FAI hike the ticket prices and we the fans pay to protect the economy. Not as much an issue for rugby, as ticket prices are usually much higher anyway. But I for one would not be happy to see my 36 euro ticket going up to 60 or 70 euro just to ensure the FAI take the moral high ground and grab the hand of friendship that has been offered (or stuck out to grab as much as it can!)

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Originally Posted by gspain

As for fixtures well it will reduce our negotiating power but we can control our own destiny here. Croke Park is effectively closed for 8 motnhs of the eyar anyway so plenty of scope here to play games.

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As I said before, likely to be mainly midweek and unless it is against some of the big boys, we would be lucky to make 35/40000.

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Originally Posted by gspain

....Cardiff is a great stadium but very difficult to get to......

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FFS Gary, this is Wales we are talking about. An unbelievable comment from a man that has travelled to every ar**hole country and town in Europe and beyond!

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

..The whole idea of money is a smokescreen ..

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Not for the GAA it isn't. Let's assume the Central Council agree to open CP up. There will also be an expectation from within the GAA, especially from those who opposed opening it up, that if they do open it up then at least let it be worthwhile and if the FAI or IRFU want to use it then they (or someone else, the Govt.) must pay or else what will have been the point.

The Central Council members are not as liberal as the rank and file to whom the County Boards are answerable, therefore their interest will no longer be based on whether or not it is right to open CP up, but what is the price that is attractive enough to satisfy the commercial aspects of the FAI and IRFU and to prove to the 'hardcore' that financially it was worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Not for the GAA it isn't. Let's assume the Central Council agree to open CP up. There will also be an expectation from within the GAA, especially from those who opposed opening it up, that if they do open it up then at least let it be worthwhile and if the FAI or IRFU want to use it then they (or someone else, the Govt.) must pay or else what will have been the point.

The Central Council members are not as liberal as the rank and file to whom the County Boards are answerable, therefore their interest will no longer be based on whether or not it is right to open CP up, but what is the price that is attractive enough to satisfy the commercial aspects of the FAI and IRFU and to prove to the 'hardcore' that financially it was worthwhile.

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This vote has been a PR coup for the GAA for the Central Council to Torpedo it would be shooting themselves in the foot!

I'll predict now that whatever is agreed between the FAI and the GAA, the fee for using CP will be based on a percentage of the gate receipts. A flat fee makes no sense financially for the FAI given that there will be many games where they will not fill CP. However, I wouldn't rule out the Government making a contribution to ensure the GAA is guaranteed a particular revenue from each match regardless of the attendance.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

I am not sure that even with Block Booking CP would be sold out for every game. We're talking about 70,000? (82000 less 12000 for the Hill). Maybe for the top 4 or 5 teams (Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland and you have to include England) yes you would, but we would be lucky to get 50,000 for the likes of Cyprus, Georgia and Faroes, at least one or two teams will be in that category.


Nothing to do will football/rugby. The FAI/IRFU cannot be expected to 'do the right thing' if the sums don't add up. There are only two choices (i) the Govt. 'subsidises' the rental of CP to protect the economy or (ii) the FAI hike the ticket prices and we the fans pay to protect the economy. Not as much an issue for rugby, as ticket prices are usually much higher anyway. But I for one would not be happy to see my 36 euro ticket going up to 60 or 70 euro just to ensure the FAI take the moral high ground and grab the hand of friendship that has been offered (or stuck out to grab as much as it can!)


As I said before, likely to be mainly midweek and unless it is against some of the big boys, we would be lucky to make 35/40000.


FFS Gary, this is Wales we are talking about. An unbelievable comment from a man that has travelled to every ar**hole country and town in Europe and beyond!

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Big games in all major sports in this country will sellout many times over. We would have little difficulty selling out a big match and by setting up a competitive block booking system we could sellout all home qualifiers in CP. Ditto all the 6 nations games will sellout even if Italy has to be tied to wales and even Wales + Scotland.

I expect the GAA will either get a premium on the rent or get a government grant for floodlights etc as a sweetener.

Cardiff is not easily accessible from Dublin. Limited flights (small airport) and the ferry takes time and is cancelled much more often than the Holyhead route. Manchester/Liverpool are much better serviced as indeed is London. anyway Wales will be at home there and we would need to alternate fixtures. It was a travel nightmare when Munster played the HC Final there. Contrast with Anfield in 95.

There is too much money at stake for the economy for these games to leave Dublin now. The big obstacle has been overcome and it will get worked out.

The F.A.I. need the government on board too to build Lansdowne.

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Originally Posted by Peadar

Think you need to read this before you comment further.

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Thanks for that. The interesting part reads: "As part of the announcement a new company, Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company (LRSDC) was formed by the IRFU and FAI. The company, which is chaired by Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, will be responsible for the construction and management of the proposed new stadium".

The FAI are helping the IRFU to redevelop the new stadium but surely the IRFU are not sharing their ownership of the ground with the FAI. Prime real estate in Dublin !! Anyone know the answer to that ?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Thanks for that. The interesting part reads: "As part of the announcement a new company, Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company (LRSDC) was formed by the IRFU and FAI. The company, which is chaired by Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, will be responsible for the construction and management of the proposed new stadium".

The FAI are helping the IRFU to redevelop the new stadium but surely the IRFU are not sharing their ownership of the ground with the FAI. Prime real estate in Dublin !! Anyone know the answer to that ?

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The Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company will manage the new stadium. This will rent it from the IRFU. It's a bit confusing in that the LRSDC will most likely have members of the IRFU, the FAI and the Govt. on its board. As far as I know, the FAI and the IRFU are both investing in this new company, with the government making up the rest of the development money (a sh!teload of the money, in fact). So, the IRFU will continue to own it but the FAI and the IRFU will both have a stake in the company that manages it.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people.

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Whatever about the other aspects of the debate, is there really a need for a soccer stadium in Cork with a capacity of >7,500? It's more than adequate to meet demand 99.999% of the time. I certainly don't see that as being the real issue.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people. The GAA have got their **** together in a way the FAI and LOI clubs have failed to do. The simple fact is that the GAA have built that stadium and football is a rival sport. Why should they hand over the keys?

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While we can debate the extent to which the lack of a football stadium is indicative of FAI failure or whatever, the real issue for me is that right now, there is a charity match coming up, and demand has exceeded expectations and the capacity of the football stadium originally slated to hold it.

The GAA can deem it a rival sport and stick to their constitution and keep their doors closed, or they can accept it as a charity event, open up the doors, and generate more money to be sent in the direction of the family, and hospice, that are set to benefit.

Although I'm no fan of the GAA, I can understand why they are somewhat hesitant about it (although it seems Cork GAA have no issue with it), I think this is a terrible situation to use to make a point.

EDIT: There is also the issue of 30 million in government grants to refurbish Pairc Ui Chaoimh (from a total of 80 million) being approved by the EU on condition that the ground “will be open to various users on a non-discriminatory and transparent basis”.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

I've an awful lot of time for Damien Duff. He is clearly both intelligent and articulate in equal measure. I think he does a great job on rte and what he is doing in coaching is wonderful for Irish football.

But I think he has laid it on a bit thick here.

He is obviously angry and I understand why. Liam Miller was clearly a friend of his and what happened was a tragedy.

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people. The GAA have got their **** together in a way the FAI and LOI clubs have failed to do. The simple fact is that the GAA have built that stadium and football is a rival sport. Why should they hand over the keys?

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They don't have to hand over the keys. They don't have to do anything but put their trousers on in the morning. But don't you think they should.? Duff played a sport where the mixed use of facilities was commonplace. He obviously sees the rank stupidity of an organization which has the attention of the nation for a good portion of the year, but likes to separate themselves from other sports. From a PR perspective, Duff is right. It is a nightmare for the GAA. Does the organization not stop to think that the people who support Cork hurlers and footballers would be quite fond of Liam Miller also. And those same fans would like to see right done by his surviving family

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Whatever about the other aspects of the debate, is there really a need for a soccer stadium in Cork with a capacity of >7,500? It's more than adequate to meet demand 99.999% of the time. I certainly don't see that as being the real issue.

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There isn't, but there should be (although City have tested the capacity on quite a few occasions over the last three years). Perhaps efforts should be made with the IRFU to develop Musgrave Park into a 12-15,000 capacity stadium and play more Munster games along with the bigger Cork City games there (European ties, big league games, glamour friendlies) and perhaps some National side friendlies.

Ultimately the aim should be to get more people going to games - the FORAS people at City deserve a lot of credit for getting crowd averages to 4500 within a few years of taking over a bankrupt club but there is surely still more room for growth in a city of 200,000 with a Metro area of more than 300,000 - for example, Ipswich has a city population of 130,000 and a Metro area population of 180,000 - the Trotters' average attendance last season was over 16,000 and that was considered a bad year.

And the picture looks terribly bleak when you compare our capital with Britain's - if all the League Clubs in London (a city of 8.5m people) played at home, you could expect 300,000 to be in attendance, whereas if all the League Clubs in Dublin (urban pop. 1.3m) played at home, you'd be hard pressed to get 6000 out.

And having a stable, fully professional league could be a vital part in ensuring future success for our National Side - over the next couple of years, when we ask ourselves if and how a country of Ireland's size can make an impact in major tournaments, we should constantly refer ourselves to the Croatian experience - I've already mentioned it myself already. One component of that is having a professional league that can keep talent at home longer - almost all of the Croatian squad played multiple seasons in the Croatian league before moving on to bigger, nay, the biggest clubs. And it's not like the attendance levels of the Croatian First League are unattainable - average for the league is under 3000 and, while Dinamo Zagreb and Hajduk Split do get big crowds, second-placed Rijeka had an average attendance last season only a few hundred more than Cork City.

I was told elsewhere that the major source of revenue for Irish clubs is now European money and transfer fees, but that shouldn't be the case - you can't run a professional football club on the basis of half a million in European prize money and a couple of hundred thousand in transfer fees, as John Caulfield pointed out (https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...field-12846637) - attendances and merchandising are still the backbone for LOI clubs - again kudos to the CCFC team who have got revenues to a healthy 2.7m in 2017 (https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...re-466551.html)

So why don't Irish people go to LOI games more? Competition from the GAA? Not on a Friday night. Poor quality football? Well it's not EPL but it's not exactly the hoofball of the early '90s either - there are numerous ex and future internationals in the league at any given time. Prohibitive costs? 15 euros every couple of weeks (or once a month if you only go to every second home game)? Come on... I'm going to say the most controversial thing I've said on this site ever. The main reason Irish people aren't going to football games is that the centre of Irish entertainment is still the pub.

Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there, but I see the wonderful success of the Croatian team, not just this year, and I see no inherent reason why Ireland can't emulate everything they've done - and we're not that far off, we just need to improve a few things - better coaching of the kids and a pathway to professionalism, which the FAI does seem to be trying to do, at least, and a viable professional league that can attract and keep better players for longer, allowing teams to go further in Europe and demand higher transfer fees, which allows them to keep and attract more 'marquee' players, increasing attendances further, allowing them to go further in Europe etc etc.

The GAA have no problem shilling out Croke Park to the made-up mockery that has become Compromise Rules, or American football. If it's precedent they want, how about rodeo in Croker during the 1924 Tailteann Games? https://books.google.ie/books?id=jC8...201924&f=false

Old-fashioned chauvinism, pure and simple. They can do it when they want. Duff is only saying what others are thinking.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

The GAA have no problem shilling out Croke Park to the made-up mockery that has become Compromise Rules, or American football. If it's precedent they want, how about rodeo in Croker during the 1924 Tailteann Games? https://books.google.ie/books?id=jC8...201924&f=false

Old-fashioned chauvinism, pure and simple. They can do it when they want. Duff is only saying what others are thinking.

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This is all entirely true. But they own it. It's entirely at their own discretion who they rent it out to, and who they don't.

I'd imagine that the #newbridgeornowhere situation means they are about to set off on a course of building at least one 15k+ capacity stadium in all 32 counties. Shamrock Rovers aside, Football is still nowhere.

To those who say the demand isn't there to justify soccer teams building stadiums like that, ask yourself how often Croke Park is full. As a random example i googled the for a game held there recently and came up with the Leinster Hurling final. The attendance was 40,703, less than half the capacity of the place. They can only ever guarantee to fill it for the 2 finals. They might fill it for a particularly interesting clash at the latter stages of the championship, or a big game for the Dubs. But it's still the jewel in their crown.

To those who want to complain about how much grant money they get out of the government, why not ask why football can't match that? Football is a massive sport, with friends in high places (from the Aras down) and as much capacity to influence those who hold the purse strings. I read today that St. Pats have had their stadium plans rejected. This line stood out from the article on RTE

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Originally Posted by RTE

Today, Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy confirmed that instead 472 housing units will be constructed - 330 of them cost-rental and the remainder social housing. https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018...-stadium-plan/

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Eoghan Murphy represents Dublin Bay South, which is a neighbouring constituency to Dublin South-Central where Richmond Park is. A large number of St Pats fans are voters in the constituency of the minister who made the decision. This would never have happened to a reasonably sized GAC, never mind a county board, for the very simple reason that there would be political consequences if it did. But in a country where a couple of hundred votes make a huge difference at election time, League of Ireland clubs like St. Pats can be **** upon from a great height because the likes of Eoghan Murphy know there isn't a damn thing anybody is going to do about it.

A city the size of Cork should have a stadium capable of hosting 18k-20k people for football and rugby etc. If designed with a decent amount of forethought there is no reason why there couldn't be further temporary seating added for big events such as this one

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Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

There isn't, but there should be (although City have tested the capacity on quite a few occasions over the last three years). Perhaps efforts should be made with the IRFU to develop Musgrave Park into a 12-15,000 capacity stadium and play more Munster games along with the bigger Cork City games there (European ties, big league games, glamour friendlies) and perhaps some National side friendlies.

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Maybe Musgrave Park having a capacity of 4-7,000 more would be desirable on occasion but I'm not sold on the genuine need, as things stand. Munster are still going to play the majority of their games at Thomond Park and City at Turner's Cross. Increasing crowds in the medium to long-term is another debate really and certainly if the capacity at the Cross, at some point, is struggling to accommodate demand that would be a completely different situation, but it's hardly a case of 'if you build it, they will come'.

Anyway, in the context of the Liam Miller match, it's hardly a stick to beat the FAI with? I presume this (or another) saga would have still broken out even if they had a stake in a 12-15,000 capacity Musgrave Park, given it would still be 30,000 less than Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

This is all entirely true. But they own it. It's entirely at their own discretion who they rent it out to, and who they don't.

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Again, I'll point out that the €30 milion grant for refurbishment was approved by the EU on condition that the stadium be made available to other sports and interests in a non-discriminatory and transparent basis. The Irish government was instructed by the EU to monitor the situation for 15 years to ensure that this was indeed happening.

So I would not be sure that it is entirely at their discretion, or, at least, I am not sure they can simply take the attitude that they don't want to hand over the keys to a rival sport.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Anyway, in the context of the Liam Miller match, it's hardly a stick to beat the FAI with? I presume this (or another) saga would have still broken out even if they had a stake in a 12-15,000 capacity Musgrave Park, given it would still be 30,000 less than Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

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It all depends on the demand I suppose, and to a certain extent, that depends on the number of tickets available, which depends on the venue.

I would have thought that 12-15,000 would be enough, but as there isn't any venue with that capacity, the need to look for a bigger one.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

It all depends on the demand I suppose, and to a certain extent, that depends on the number of tickets available, which depends on the venue.

I would have thought that 12-15,000 would be enough, but as there isn't any venue with that capacity, the need to look for a bigger one.

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The key is building something adaptable. The stadium the Russians built for the World Cup in Yeketerinberg was an extreme example but it shows what can be done with temporary seating if you leave space for it.

Once they take the temporary stands away it will become a modern facility with a modest enough capacity of 23,000. A little big for Cork City but it shows what is possible.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Again, I'll point out that the €30 milion grant for refurbishment was approved by the EU on condition that the stadium be made available to other sports and interests in a non-discriminatory and transparent basis. The Irish government was instructed by the EU to monitor the situation for 15 years to ensure that this was indeed happening.

So I would not be sure that it is entirely at their discretion, or, at least, I am not sure they can simply take the attitude that they don't want to hand over the keys to a rival sport.

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I don't think any of us a really qualified to say if the GAA are breaking EU state aid rules here. They have made the venue available to the likes of Ed Sheeran so It isn't like they are applying a blanket ban on other users, and it wouldn't be hard to make an argument that they are protecting their own commercial interests rather than discriminating against anyone. It's not like they are refusing to rent it out because they don't want protestants running about on their pitch.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

A city the size of Cork should have a stadium capable of hosting 18k-20k people for football and rugby etc. If designed with a decent amount of forethought there is no reason why there couldn't be further temporary seating added for big events such as this one

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It already does. Why does it need another one?

The public coffers have put €30 million into that one ( slap bang in the middle of a recession) , gave the GAA another chunk of that land beside it ( worth God knows) , while they flouted planning laws, and are now looking for the Cork city Council to stump up for another close to 1m for local amenities inc improved lighting which were promised at the start of the build.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/archiv...on-374377.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cork...omed-1.1195239
https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...mh-466384.html

People are literally saying we now need ANOTHER stadium in Cork to play soccer and Rugby despite the inordinate amount public funding that has gone into the big stadium that is there. People must think we are awash with money! We can't even fund a half decent events centre in the City - the only way of getting a decent mid size concert to the City is to erect a giant tent for 2 months every summer. How on earth are we able to afford to second large sporting arena.

Meanwhile CCFC are left in the lurch currently for €5m to get a COMMUNITY training facility off the ground.

I agree that comments like Duff's are unhelpful, but when you see the carry on from the GAA in places like Cork - the way they act with seeming impunity, the way Thomas Davis carried on up in Dublin being another fine example, then its not hard to understand the bitterness in come circles - notwithstanding the utter incompetence that is the FAI.

There is a simple solution to all this - politicians show some backbone and say to the GAA - no more public money until your facilities are open to use by the public.