Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct.

Can't agree with that to be honest but more important people than me certainly do, luckily for Glenn. I don't really rate Lucas either, although I'm aware of the massive u-turn amongst Liverpool supporters towards him a couple of years back, before he got injured. He's pretty one paced and many, if not most, of those tactical fouls come when he's caught for pace or out of position. I find that generally speaking Benitez lovers tend to have a lot more time for Lucas than the anti-Rafa brigade, which makes a bit of sense I suppose. Even most Trap apologists don't really rate Whelan though I would think.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Can't agree with that to be honest but more important people than me certainly do, luckily for Glenn. I don't really rate Lucas either, although I'm aware of the massive u-turn amongst Liverpool supporters towards him a couple of years back, before he got injured. He's pretty one paced and many, if not most, of those tactical fouls come when he's caught for pace or out of position. I find that generally speaking Benitez lovers tend to have a lot more time for Lucas than the anti-Rafa brigade, which makes a bit of sense I suppose. Even most Trap apologists don't really rate Whelan though I would think.

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Hey, I know little about football, that's just my observation. I wouldn't be slow to admit either that as an EPL player, Lucas is finished; the second cruciate has totalled his mobility. I feel really sorry for him.

And I'd agree with you too, how an LFC fan stands on Lucas generally tends to point to whether they are pro or anti Benitez. Great observation.
Whelan is by his own admission only carrying out what managers request from him. Hopefully the current managers request more, or install someone who can do more.

The holding midfielder role, that of the simple passer, the reader of the game, and the person to calm things down and slow it up a bit when needed to, is woefully overlooked in modern football. Glenn Whelan is that type of player, able to pop up and attack when he needs to, but is that perfect type of player to just sit in midfield, read the game, make the tackles when he needs to, and just calm things down, simple 10 yard passes.

There's a whole raft of those type of players in England who are often chastised. The aforementioned Lucas is one of them, Michael Carrick is another. They're among my favourite type of footballer and some of the abuse these kind of players get bewilders me.

Whelan is a very valuable player to have in the squad and would be perfect playing in a 3 man midfield in behind the likes of Gibson and McCarthy, or Hoolahan and McCarthy.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

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It sounds very simple and obvious but its a key thing especially when spain played it, a trajectoy and distance from the player closest to the ball relative to being in the best position and not drawing the system "out of shape".

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

The holding midfielder role, that of the simple passer, the reader of the game, and the person to calm things down and slow it up a bit when needed to, is woefully overlooked in modern football. Glenn Whelan is that type of player, able to pop up and attack when he needs to, but is that perfect type of player to just sit in midfield, read the game, make the tackles when he needs to, and just calm things down, simple 10 yard passes.

There's a whole raft of those type of players in England who are often chastised. The aforementioned Lucas is one of them, Michael Carrick is another. They're among my favourite type of footballer and some of the abuse these kind of players get bewilders me.

Whelan is a very valuable player to have in the squad and would be perfect playing in a 3 man midfield in behind the likes of Gibson and McCarthy, or Hoolahan and McCarthy.

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What upsets me, and I mean it upsets me, and I've written to the FAI about it, is that we tend to produce a type of player designed to go to the Premier League in England, but the vast majority either end up having what was good about them in the first place beaten out of them, or they aren't suited to what the gambling club hopes they'll be good at.

Continental Europe, and in particular Germany, Holland and Belgium, and the likes of Denmark and Sweden, are places where Irish players could thrive. Not just plod through their careers, but thrive. Whelan struck it lucky for a variety of reasons, but Owen Garvan has not been so lucky. That guy will have wasted what could, nay should, have been a stellar career, because he is a mite too slow or not athletic enough for the ENglish game.
The FAI in coordination with the ASTI and the Dept of Education, and unfortunately the DDSL, should be moulding the academic studies of these kids to be learning languages to a functional level, along with basic business subjects so that they aren't all pidgeon hole-ing when they reach teh critical 14-21 age group.

I should add, that is one the reasons I admire the likes of Cillian Sheridan, Dominic Foley, Darren O'Dea and so on. They thought outside the box. They had enough faith in themselves in the basics of the game, and refused to go plumbing the depths of the English or heaven's forbid, the English league pyramid.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Hey, I know little about football

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Absolutely. I'm not sure what gave you the impression I thought otherwise.

To be fair, Lucas was playing his best football before one of those injuries. I remember him being immense in a game at home to Manchester City shortly before one of them. Overall though, I just never really thought he was good enough for a club with aspirations as big as Liverpool's. I'm all for carrying out the manager's instructions but I think they may have suited his limitations, as opposed to his real skill set being sacrificed. Obviously I never saw this alleged skill set which may have been a part of his previous life at Gremio, so I can't say for sure. One would have to presume he wasn't Brazil's captain at underage for nothing. Even already, and obviously the jury is still out, I would see the likes of Daley Blind as having more to offer in that role, as he looks like a playmaker as well as a ball winner. Same with Owen Hargreaves at his best, he wasn't just content to win possession, he had great vision and a passing range to match. I think if you're going to be in the team for ball winning alone, you really have to be exceptional at it, like Mascherano or obviously Makélélé, who seemingly invented the role.

I don't think Whelan is a particular good tackler and he's a pretty average passer when there's any sort of pressure applied. Therefore the best he can offer is to hold his position and he generally does that as best he can, but without pace and a genuine presence. I just don't think that's anywhere near enough.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

It sounds very simple and obvious but its a key thing especially when spain played it, a trajectoy and distance from the player closest to the ball relative to being in the best position and not drawing the system "out of shape".

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When it's said by me or you it sounds simple. But if you were to draw down what I'm trying to get across, it's tough. It's even tougher to get right.

If you were to use the 10 outfield players as pods of three, with the central striker the only isolated player. But then you have to also consider the back 4 as a single line for the purposes of holding a high line, or low line for offside and counter-attacking. So if you have one pod (for this example defending) which includes the left winger/attacker, the left sided player of a middle-three, and a left-full, they must move in a particular style symmetrically, depending on who the ball is closest to, in order to cordon off specific segments of the pitch. But if the left full is moving diagonally forward towards the touch line, the remaining three of the back 4 must also move, in order for the single backline not to be totally out of alignment and therefore leaving a huge space to exploit on the left-side of defence. So therefore the team has 2/3 choices.

A) the back three shuffle sidewards to the left, and slightly forward to drag the back 4 line into alignment, meaning the right hand side pod of three must shuffle slightly right and down, and the middle pod of three moves slightly further apart and but a touch forward.

Options B & C are different variations of that, but it's goddamn boring to listen to. Bloody effective it is. Some of the so-called middling European teams are excellent at it. In ENgland, a terrible example of it are Chelsea. I say terrible because they have an incredible array of talent, and they seldom use it, but examples of it can be seen when they play other members of the big 4.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

not in the final squad, although part of the wider "panel" if you like

could have been a chance for Mark Connolly too. Or Shane O'Neill, if they wanted to put a cat amongst pigeons.

If you want a quick conspiracy theory - Lenihan was called up to distract from the inevitable questions about Keane's book.

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Ah sorry, I thought you meant the wider squad. Still, some little cabal of Corkonians.

I just noticed you typed "Hey, I know little about football". I thought you had typed "Hey, I know a little about football"... as in I shouldn't have disregarded your observation, which I didn't. So basically I wasn't agreeing with you when I said "Absolutely"!! Confusing, I know.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

He is, and has been for some considerable time, Stoke's MVP. He has been consistently excellent for them.

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He has been playing some real good soccer for them this semester.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I just noticed you wrote "Hey, I know little about football". I thought you had wrote "Hey, I know a little about football"... as in I shouldn't have disregarded your observation, which I didn't. So basically I wasn't agreeing with you when I said "Absolutely"!! Confusing, I know.

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I am more confused now than your original post. I assumed you were either being funny, or being insulting. Either way, I'm saying that I have an opinion on this stuff from repeatedly looking at the same matches again and again to study tactics, and drawing my opinion based on that, rather than just saying something for the sake of it. It's why I'll generally laud McGeady to the hilt, when most others repeatedly criticise him. It's the same reason I'll take a manager/coach to task for employing baffling tactics or selections when I feel there are better options available. From analysis, not just for the craic.

**** off Charie. :-)

I wasn't being funny or insulting, as I was responding to something you didn't say. I was basically agreeing that you know a little about football, but that's not what you said :)

Only JoSh has coped with better forwards at International level, the other two were Dickie and the Saint.

Keogh, Wilson, Clark and Pearce have all struggled to cope with international forwards.

I'm concerned about our management set up too as well.

The next two games won't tell us much as we are expected to beat the Gibs and lose to the Gerrys.

Wee Gordy has got the Scots going so that will be our big test.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

When it's said by me or you it sounds simple. But if you were to draw down what I'm trying to get across, it's tough. It's even tougher to get right.

If you were to use the 10 outfield players as pods of three, with the central striker the only isolated player. But then you have to also consider the back 4 as a single line for the purposes of holding a high line, or low line for offside and counter-attacking. So if you have one pod (for this example defending) which includes the left winger/attacker, the left sided player of a middle-three, and a left-full, they must move in a particular style symmetrically, depending on who the ball is closest to, in order to cordon off specific segments of the pitch. But if the left full is moving diagonally forward towards the touch line, the remaining three of the back 4 must also move, in order for the single backline not to be totally out of alignment and therefore leaving a huge space to exploit on the left-side of defence. So therefore the team has 2/3 choices.

A) the back three shuffle sidewards to the left, and slightly forward to drag the back 4 line into alignment, meaning the right hand side pod of three must shuffle slightly right and down, and the middle pod of three moves slightly further apart and but a touch forward.

Options B & C are different variations of that, but it's goddamn boring to listen to. Bloody effective it is. Some of the so-called middling European teams are excellent at it. In ENgland, a terrible example of it are Chelsea. I say terrible because they have an incredible array of talent, and they seldom use it, but examples of it can be seen when they play other members of the big 4.

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Ya you have explained it quite well literally in a theoretical sense. I think its about players having that spatial awareness that we wouldn't have. I really think its about that and as simple as that, once you know the system. I think for you because youre a more logical thinker than in this instance "doer" that to understand it is more difficult, because I'm pretty sure when you're playing it and understand it its pretty much all about being aware of who is closest and in the best position, you hold. I think all that is instinctive to professional footballers.

By the way don't take that as insult, its not meant like that.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

I am more confused now than your original post. I assumed you were either being funny, or being insulting. Either way, I'm saying that I have an opinion on this stuff from repeatedly looking at the same matches again and again to study tactics, and drawing my opinion based on that, rather than just saying something for the sake of it. It's why I'll generally laud McGeady to the hilt, when most others repeatedly criticise him. It's the same reason I'll take a manager/coach to task for employing baffling tactics or selections when I feel there are better options available. From analysis, not just for the craic.

**** off Charie. :-)

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Lads, when you two have a conversation on here you look like Paul O'Shea when he starts talking to himself.

Blame the avatar guy.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-TrsdB7dfTw/0.jpg

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Originally Posted by the doc

Only JoSh has coped with better forwards at International level, the other two were Dickie and the Saint.

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I would contend that OShea's biggest nightmare is to play against teams with the philosophy that Germany have. Not just JOSh, but most English based centre-halves, because it means for most of the time, they have to mark a zone, rather than a player. Funnily enough SSL is a player I'd love to have next week, as I think he's perfect for facing this type of formation. It's the type of game OLeary would have excelled in, but maybe McCarthy or Moran would have struggled. The false forward is the genius position that has come out of this generation. And I don't mean the Spain variety, I specifically mean Mueller and his role for Germany. Schurrle, Mueller, Reus, Goetze all mean Germany can do this.
Richard Keogh might actually be suited to this type of game, but from the bits I've seen of him, I'm just not convinced he's up to playing at this level.

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Keogh, Wilson, Clark and Pearce have all struggled to cope with international forwards.

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Of course they will, It's obvious that two aren't international standard centre-halves, and one looks uncomfortable, and the other has a problem concentrating for 90 mins.

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The next two games won't tell us much as we are expected to beat the Gibs and lose to the Gerrys.

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I disagree totally here though....Gibraltar is the opportunity to try something different out, without the result really being in doubt. Germany is the same: this is the game where MON's credentials are put on show. It's where he should have been trying to gain an upper hand on Poland and Scotland by coming up with a formula or strategy that gives us wiggle room for our games against our rivals. MON's attitude to the Germany game, and if there was any dividend, has a direct implication on our matches with the other two. A point from Germany forces Scotland to be either more gung-ho against us, or more gung-ho against Poland. If they have to go more gung-ho against Poland, they'll lose, meaning they'll have to come to Dublin in 2015 having to win. These are the small details that generally get glossed over in the press, nevermind on forums, and they have a huge impact on groups such as ours.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I think its about players having that spatial awareness .

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In a nutshell. And a lot of pro footballers - British in particular - do not have it.

The only way Walters should be getting on the pitch is to use his energy for the last 15-20 minutes. Too many times, he starts, he looks very capable for a 20 minute spell and ends up having no lasting impact during the course of a game. The last several times he played for Ireland, he doesn't look fit enough too start let alone last 90 minutes. I would really like to see Stokes and/or Murphy get some decent game time against Gibraltar though I would start with Long & Doyle up front together with Doyle, in particular, creating space for Long to run into; or alternatively start Long up front on his own with Hoolahan in the hole and Pilkington /McClean and McGeady coming inside and linking up on the flanks.

A lot of teams don't play with any orthodox wingers anymore so it would be interesting to play say Gibson, Hendrick, Meyler and Hoolahan with Gibson furthest back and Hoolahan furthest forward and one or even two full backs having licence to drive forward.

There are many different options. Of course it's all for naught if you keep selecting players like Whelan and Walters any way; two players who sum up the malaise of the national team.