Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by geysir

Greenland? that's in your continent. You North Americans certainly are geographically challenged :)

Iceland is a fully autonomous Viking/Celtic dissident, super mixed breed.
We don't do subsets here.

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yeah, keep smoking that seal blubber...

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?

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Something similar...perhaps a bit lower?

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.

Also interesting is that "Northern Irish" is the most popular identity amongst those surveyed who consider themselves of no religion.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The "shared" identity of "Northern Irish" seems to be particularly increasing amongst younger people.

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I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Something similar...perhaps a bit lower?

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

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Fair point.

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If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.

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With a lower-case 'n'... Sure! ;)

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Also interesting is that "Northern Irish" is the most popular identity amongst those surveyed who consider themselves of no religion.

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Aye, but were they Catholic atheists or Protestant atheists? :p

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Originally Posted by The Fly

I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.

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My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.

If Northern Irish identity was left out of the equation, the folk who primarily identify as Northern Irish would revert to either "Irish" or "British".

Effectively, there are two subsets within the Northern Irish identity ie. Northern Irish/Irish and Northern Irish/British.

The Northern Irish identity seems capable of uniting people from different political/religious backgrounds moreso than either "Irish" or "British".

For me, that's no bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.

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Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.

I have meet a number of, mainly younger, people who have described themselves as Northern Irish but they have been, almost without exception, from a Unionist/Protestant background.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

The confusion stems, as I've stated before, and something which David Adams failed to address, from the fact that a lot of northern Unionists (that I've experienced) almost universally self-identify with "British" first and foremost and rarely allow any acknowledgement of their shared heritage with nationalists and the "Irish". It is this experience coupled with the opposite one which occurs when talking to English, Scottish and Welsh people who almost always say they are English, Scottish and Welsh first and foremost.

The give-and-take of recognition has to occur on both sides and this current incessant trend within the media to barrack nationalists and southerners into accepting this alien status quo is worrying.

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I'm not so sure it's as one-way as you seem to suggest; as if the confusion is all their fault. There's a reason why unionists have hang-ups in self-identifying as Irish and I think it would be unfair to suggest it's all their doing.

The popular and widely-understood conception of Irishness - generally, the identity channelled through the state of Ireland - has historically been used as an ideological vehicle and became very much politicised over the past century, perhaps by virtue of its quasi-official adoption by the Irish state post-independence. Consequently, it now carries with it "baggage" with which modern-day unionists evidently don't feel completely comfortable, if at all. Upon the Free State attaining independence, the new projection of Ireland from within the new state was, according to commentators like Síghle Bhreathnach-Lynch, that of "a bleak but beautiful countryside, peopled exclusively by a sturdy, Gaelic-speaking, Catholic people". Such imagery exalted an identity that was "instantly recognisably different from that of its former ruler Britain, which was perceived as urban, English-speaking and Protestant". I'm not suggesting that that's how we all view Irishness nowadays - the modern Irish identity is obviously a lot more diverse and complex than that - but the notion still possesses contentious connotations for some, especially when it has such an historical and seemingly-inherent attachment to republican political ideology.

For many unionists/northern Protestants uninterested in identifying themselves as Irish, the word "Irish" is associated with republicanism, Catholicism, the Gaelic tradition, non-Britishness, separatism or whatever one wants to call it. This most likely stemmed from a combination of the efforts of the independent state to assert a sort of post-colonial identity for itself along with unionists' inevitable hostility towards such a budding identity; one that was completely polar to or at odds with their interests and political aspirations.

NB self-identifies as Irish but it doesn't appear to be the same sense of Irishness with which yourself and myself identify, for example. For some unionists, if they were to identify themselves as such, they may well fear they'd be misinterpreted as identifying with the Irish identity channelled through the Irish state; the one historically associated with republicanism. Perhaps NB views the Irish identity associated with the Irish state as a splinter Irish identity?

Interestingly, in 1905, the Irish Unionist Party proudly displayed a slogan in Gaelic at their party convention. Since 1892 actually, they were using the slogan 'Erin go Bragh' to demonstrate their commitment to maintaining Ireland's position as a part of the UK. Obviously, the slogan possesses contrasting connotations nowadays. As does, sadly, the Gaelic language (now referred to as "the Irish language" upon official instruction of the Irish state, of course).

Nevertheless, unionists of the modern day like Linda Ervine, Chris McGimpsey and Basil McCrea have been willing to acknowledge (and act on to their own personal cultural enrichment) that aspect of the language's history, which is positive, as are schemes/developments such as these: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19715146 and http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/13/...peech-pupconf/

In fact, there was an Orange Lodge in Belfast during the 1970s named Oidhreacht Éireann (Ireland's Heritage) LOL 1303. So then, whilst broadly viewed, whether correctly or not, as preserves of the Irish republican tradition, I suppose nobody on the island can lay exclusive claim to the labels "Irish" or "Gaelic".

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.

I have meet a number of, mainly younger, people who have described themselves as Northern Irish but they have been, almost without exception, from a Unionist/Protestant background.

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My own experience is similar, but then most of my experience would revolve around the north-west/Derry/Tyrone.

Edit: Similar to your own rather than NB's, I mean.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Really? It must be more of a Belfast phenomenon, because my experience just wouldn't correlate with that at all.

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Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

Semi-related to my above post, I was doing a bit of research on Irish art in a political context for a dissertation I've been working on of late and, in line with Bhreathnach-Lynch's aforementioned insight, found the following acute observation by Aidan Dunne fascinating:

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If the Nationalist myth of the West of Ireland indicates a distrust of towns as a colonial imposition, the Loyalist identification with organized, defensible territory is apparent in a distrust of the amorphous, threatening wilderness. It is interesting in this context that the favored icons of natural landscape used to promote tourism in Northern Ireland are the orderly hexagonal basalt columns of the Giant's Causeway [see the logo of the NITB below, for example], a structure that echoes man-made architectonic forms, whereas in the South the vague, unbounded expanses of the Atlantic seaboard have traditionally been the dominant representative landscape.

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http://www.duffyrafferty.com/wp-cont.../logo-nitb.jpg

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Perhaps NB views the Irish identity associated with the Irish state as a splinter Irish identity?

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No DI - I view it as a different association of Irish identity to mine.

My Irish identity has nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland State, styling itself "Ireland".

On the use of Gaelic you highlighted, apart from Orange Lodges etc, I would highlight the motto of the Royal Irish Regiment also - "Faugh A Ballagh".

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

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An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?

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Not sure.

I would have thought the Life & Times Surveys are based on research from across Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?

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Originally Posted by The Fly

I have noticed this as well, but it has been my experience that this nascent Northern Irish identity is one which is to be found almost wholly within the Protestant/unionist community.

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Agreed on both points.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

An east-of-the-Bann thing then, perhaps?

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Whilst accepting anecdotal evidence, this is borne out by the political distribution of parliamentary and other seats.
As in mainly nationalist, 'west' of the Bann.

Plus met numerous people from certain parts of Beal-feirste who would never think of themselves as 'northern' Irish.
And quite right too...

Incidentally, not met anyone who lives/has lived in the other 26 counties who'd call themselves 'British', but English, Scottish, Welsh. Or from 'the north'...
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Plus met numerous people from certain parts of Beal-feirste who would never think of themselves as 'northern' Irish.
And quite right too...

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It's not surprising in the least that you consider the right of people to identify whatever way they like as a matter of right and wrong.

Fortunately, people like you don't dictate how people can and should identify.

And you likewise.
;)

It's up to them, how they identify. I just happen to agree with them...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

It's up to them, how they identify.

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Amen to that.

Rumour has it the French Football Federation are looking into Joey Barton's eligibility after he impressed in his first Ligue 1 television performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3U-r8T31Ns

Interesting survey in the Irish Times today.

How apt...

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Originally Posted by STEPHEN COLLINS in The Irish Times

Republic takes more relaxed approach to dual identity across the Border
ANALYSIS: Almost half the people in the Republic consider Northern Ireland to be Irish and British, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll.
The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years.
In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI.
Asked if they considered the people of Northern Ireland to be Irish, British, both or neither – 46 per cent said both, 30 per cent said Irish, 9 per cent said British, 4 per cent said neither and 10 per cent had no opinion.
Younger people are markedly more inclined to have no opinion on this issue but there are no big class variations.
There is a big regional variation with people living in Dublin and Munster much less inclined than the rest to say those from the North are solely Irish. By contrast a majority living in Connacht-Ulster take the view that the people of the North are solely Irish.
In party terms Fine Gael and Labour Party supporters are most strongly of the view that people from the North have a dual national identity.
Dual nationality
A majority of Fianna Fáil supporters also take that view but Sinn Féin supporters, by a small majority, say that people in Northern Ireland are Irish.
Opinion on this issue has not changed all that much over the past 25 years. Back in 1987 42 per cent ascribed dual nationality to those in the North, 33 per cent said they were Irish, 15 per cent British, 6 per cent neither and 5 per cent had no opinion.
One striking feature of the poll is a less partitionist attitude now than in 1987. At that stage when asked what constituted the Irish nation 38 per cent said the 26 counties and 56 per cent said the 32 counties with 6 per cent having no opinion.
In 2012 the proportion saying the 32 counties has remained exactly the same at 56 per cent. But the number saying 26 counties has dropped to 27 per cent while the number with no opinion has jumped to 18 per cent.
In line with other questions about the North those with no opinion is higher among the 18 to 34 age group with almost a third of them in that category.
The drop in adherence to a purely southern Irish identity and the growing acceptance of a dual identity in the North is clearly a response to the Belfast Agreement and the new era in North-South and British-Irish relations.
This is also reflected in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for.Those saying Yes is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.
Unity
Again there has been a steep rise in the proportion with no opinion, which has doubled to 28 per cent since 1987. Among younger people aged between 18 and 34 the proportion with no opinion is higher again with 37 per cent having no view.
Interestingly, Fianna Fáil voters were strongest in the view that a united Ireland was something to be hoped for. And, strangely, Sinn Féin voters were not as enthusiastic as Fine Gael supporters, despite the fact that Sinn Féin is the only one actively campaigning for unity.
Given the large number with no opinion on the subject it is interesting to note that 69 per cent of people say they would still favour a united Ireland even if they had to pay more in taxation to support it. Just 20 per cent said they would not favour unity in those circumstances while 11 per cent had no opinion.
While there is still strong support for a united Ireland, a majority do not believe that it would happen in the near future.
Asked which of the assertions came closest to their views, 35 per cent said Northern Ireland would never be reunited with the South, 6 per cent said it would be reunited in 10 years, 16 per cent in 25 years, 15 per cent in 50 years, 8 per cent in 100 years and 20 per cent had no opinion.
Curiously, Sinn Féin voters were significantly stronger in the view that there would never be unity than supporters of other parties

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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...327144275.html

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The question asked is "Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?" - there is no scope in that for any mix.

If asked that question, I would answer Northern Irish - an answer that I believe many Nationalists would give also.

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To be honest NB no nationalist would ever call themselves Northern Irish IMO, they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist.

I have never/would never describe myself as northern irish

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

My experience is different - increasingly, I find more and more folk from Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds identifying as Northern Irish.

If Northern Irish identity was left out of the equation, the folk who primarily identify as Northern Irish would revert to either "Irish" or "British".

Effectively, there are two subsets within the Northern Irish identity ie. Northern Irish/Irish and Northern Irish/British.

The Northern Irish identity seems capable of uniting people from different political/religious backgrounds moreso than either "Irish" or "British".

For me, that's no bad thing.

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Surely being a nationalist precludes identifying as Northern Irish? Unless their form of nationalism would involve NI being a state within a state in Ireland like it is in Britain.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Not neccessarily in my experience - I worked for a Nationalist employer in South Down in recent years (in fact, I think I was the only Unionist on the payroll!)...he primarily identifies as Northern Irish.

I currently work for a Nationalist employer in Belfast - she would identify primarily as Northern Irish too.

I am also a friend of an office bearer in my local SDLP Branch (he happens to be a Protestant) who also primarily indentifies as Northern Irish.

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Would reluctantly have to agree with NB, don't share his politics clearly!

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

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Originally Posted by dantheman

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

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I wonder do they not support Northern Ireland because of the "British" trappings associated with the experience eg, the Anthem?

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The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years.

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Those saying Yes [in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for] is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.

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I hadn't expected majority support for unity south of the border, to be honest. Me of little faith.

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In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI.

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Was there really a controversy? :/

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A majority of Fianna Fáil supporters also take that view but Sinn Féin supporters, by a small majority, say that people in Northern Ireland are Irish.

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Curiously, Sinn Féin voters were significantly stronger in the view that there would never be unity than supporters of other parties.

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Is that suggesting a significant minority of Sinn Féin supporters believe the inhabitants of NI to be British? Surely, both of the above results are rather odd and incongruous with Sinn Féin's traditional outlook?

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Originally Posted by dantheman

A number of my class mates would be Northern Irish by choice (not British) and have little interest in the Republic or a united Ireland. Funnily enough they don't support NI though!

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Where are/were your classmates from? Did they support the Republic or simply take no interest in the international game?

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

To be honest NB no nationalist would ever call themselves Northern Irish IMO, they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist.

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I would consider an Office Bearer in the SDLP to be a Nationalist.

But have you actually asked them...
;)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

But have you actually asked them...
;)

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Asked them what?

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Originally Posted by Irish Times article

Almost half the people in the Republic consider Northern Ireland to be Irish and British

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So, 43% of people in the South (excluding the don't knows) are in denial then?

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The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years

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22%. That's more like it.

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In the light of the controversy over whether golfer Rory Mcllroy should declare for Ireland or the UK when golf is allowed into the next Olympic Games the poll indicates a growing acceptance of the dual identity of people from NI

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Exaggerated controversy. He can call for whichever he pleases (or Florida, if eligible). Contrary to a suggestion in the article quoted a few pages back, isn't mid-Atlantic Mac more likely to be in the Irish team (where he's currently the #2 ranked player, as opposed to #6 in Britain)? That he's a Prod is irrelevant if he really wants to play in the Olympics.

@Newryrep: the NI Life and Times survey NB quoted above had 28% mainly identifying as Northern Irish. If we also exclude the 37% in the British category, then presumably no more than 35% can be Nationalist, despite their parties getting 42% in recent elections...

PS NB, got yer speedos ready for the Malta game yet? ;)

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Originally Posted by Gather round

PS NB, got yer speedos ready for the Malta game yet? ;)

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I'll not be anywhere near it GR.

Saving my money for a return to Eurofans in Lviv next June.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Where are/were your classmates from? Did they support the Republic or simply take no interest in the international game?

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Downpatrick area. Partly to do with the anthem and probably also to do with the success of the Republic during the 90's when we attended school (and Windsor Park '93 didn't help - I know its history but we are talking about formative years).

All live east of the Bann, I lived in Cookstown for a summer and attitudes are more hardened west of the Bann. South down isn't that Republican in comparison.

None vote unionist (some vote Alliance) or support NI, but attitudes vary between indifference/VERY mild support and hostility to the NI team. As I said none are British, but some are Northern Irish with more interest in British things that things from the Republic (sounds strange but it is the case - bit like Rory McIlroy perhaps?)

Some also do not support the Ulster rugby team as it is a "Protestant" team (which is stupid as Catholic schools in the north traditionally boycotted the sport).

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Originally Posted by dantheman

None vote unionist (some vote Alliance) or support NI

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Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

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John Clarke - quit the Down team after online abuse from his own fans. They are NI fans but also represented Ireland at the international rules series. Don't know them personally but know of them clearly through Down GAA circles. Would agree neither are Unionists (but probably not Republican either).

Agree on the rugby, its a stupid opinion some hold - barstoolerism at its worst - but it is held by some. They backed Leinster in last years Heineken Cup final (!). More in common with D4 heads than their neighbours apparently. I work in Dublin 4 and I can assure you they do not...

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Interesting survey in the Irish Times today.

How apt...



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...327144275.html

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thats very interesting alright.

No "w**kers" option though? Gotta question the credibility of that particular survey...

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Originally Posted by dantheman

Agree on the rugby, its a stupid opinion some hold - barstoolerism at its worst - but it is held by some. They backed Leinster in last years Heineken Cup final (!).

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More like base sectarianism at it's worst.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

Disturbing that some perceive the Ulster Rugby team as a "Protestant" team - quite simply, it's not.

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Maybe not 100%, however whenever I've watched an Ulster rugby match the 'Ulster banners' in the crowd outweigh the 'Ulster provincial flags' which is the official flag of the team I believe. Clearly unionists like to show whose team they believe it really is.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Martin Clarke of Down GAA fame (and his brother) are keen Northern Ireland fans. I don't believe he is a Unionist.

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Down GAA always remind me of the time I was in a nightclub in Belfast a few years back and I was talking to a lad from Down about their upcoming All-Ireland final. His girlfriend came over and he got her to turn around so I could see "her protestant hole" because I don't get to see them in Galway... And I must say it was a fine hole!! :D

Quite a funny moment

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Originally Posted by JGKyne

Down GAA always remind me of the time I was in a nightclub in Belfast a few years back and I was talking to a lad from Down about their upcoming All-Ireland final. His girlfriend came over and he got her to turn around so I could see "her protestant hole" because I don't get to see them in Galway... And I must say it was a fine hole!! :D

Quite a funny moment

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Was that in the Bot by any chance?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

More like base sectarianism at it's worst.

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That reminds me of an anecdote I heard from a former City of Derry rugby player. He recounted around the early to mid 90's many teams from around NI travelling to play in Derry, and would take to the field calling everyone in the COD team 'fenians' and 'taigs' ie 'let's hammer these fenian ********!'

Don't know how real the attitude was, whether it was actual animosity or psyched up competitive edge but regardless it got so bad in one game the COD players stopped play to tell their opposite numbers them to give over, not least because there was only one or two Catholics/Nationalists on the team/pitch. Caused a bit of confusion and laughter all round.

That's a bit more back in the day, but where you're from and what you'll play still counts for a lot, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

More like base sectarianism at it's worst.

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You're probably right

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Was that in the Bot by any chance?

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Have no idea what the place was called. I was well oiled at that stage....