I'd say it's the Everton fans who need a rest if they'd take Gibson and 45 year old Barry over him.
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I'd say it's the Everton fans who need a rest if they'd take Gibson and 45 year old Barry over him.
Its a legitimate question I'm asking though. By all accounts he didnt play well last year, he was generally disappointing at the Euros and looked tired. Burn out is a real possibility with him.
Barry was Evertons player of the season last year and Koemans first major move when he came to Goodison was to renew Gibsons contract.
Burnout might be an issue but I'd say it's more constant injury. No player is going to look good when he's struggling to string a few games together.
Gibson signed the contract a few days before Koeman was announcedQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Gibson contract extended (9th June): http://www.evertonfc.com/news/2016/0...-pens-new-deal
Blues appoint Koeman (14th June): http://www.evertonfc.com/news/2016/0...appoint-koeman
ok - got my timelines wrong on that. Fair to assume it wouldn't have happened without some sort of input from Koeman and sanction from Moshiri?
Anyway, more concerned with their evaluation of McCarthy and trying to figure out what may be the cause of his lethargy over the last couple of seasons.
He has been playing first team professional football for 10 seasons now. According to Wikipedia here are his appearance numbers (league games only) for each of those seasons.
06/07 - 23
07/08 - 35
08/09 - 37
09-10 - 20
10/11 - 24
11/12 - 33
12/13 - 38
13/14 - 39
14/15 - 28
15/16 - 29
Including all domestic appearances hes had an average of 35.6 games per season. In addition he has 39 international caps since 2010.
The guy has played a lot of football for a 25 year old. Maybe he needs a rest.
No way that contract was signed off without Koeman being aware of & in favour of it IMO.
It would be great to see James fully fit and given a chance with Koeman . I hope it all goes well for him.
I don't think he's been lethargic at all over the past couple of seasons. As Charlie says, the injuries this past year look to have taken their toll in the last month or two. Everton had a really poor season generally but I think they completely lost any sort of motivation to turn things around once they were knocked out of both cup competitions. Very few came out of this period with their reputations unscathed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I've read through that message board in the past a few times and they're a pretty fickle bunch at the best of times and do like their scapegoats. Whether he'll be a Koeman favourite or not remains to be seen but I wouldn't place much faith in what those guys have to say.
This was an article from February which seemed very accurate at the time and I think it may have even represented the general consensus on that same forum at the time, although I can't say for sure off the top of my head.
He's not too dissimilar to Morgan Schneiderlin, who was a very important player for Southampton in Koeman's first season there, so hopefully he can blossom under him. He's been mollycoddled by Martinez for a long time now and, although he's been a brilliant influence on his career, he may not have done him any favours in terms of dragging him out of his comfort zone. Koeman certainly won't wrap him in cotton wool anyway, so he'll either sink or swim pretty fast I'd imagine.
Here's his thread on Grand Old Team from around that time, worth reading a few pages to see how quickly perceptions can change on there. Although to be fair, I can't speak for individuals, just the general transformation in the comments about him. He's basically gone from being one of their most important players to a guy they should sell, in the space of three months of club football. And reading some of the most recent pages, a lot of them really are clueless.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Main problem with McCarthy for me is a lack of confidence. He doesn't make himself available for the ball, especially going forward. I think he could benefit from playing under a different manager. Gibson, for all his faults, is always looking for the ball
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
His stats are shocking, but in good way. I must say I have never been overly impressed with him but I am with those stats.
Everton are a different team with or without McCarty (ah ha I can't live... with or with out you).
Stats don't lie!
But it is a role where a lot of the work goes unseen.
Everton’s Record with and Without James McCarthy
This season
Record with McCarthy (starting appearances only)
W9, D7, L3
Without McCarthy
W4, D5 L4
Last Season
With McCarthy
W16, D8, L10
Without McCarthy
W2, D7, L8
2013/14
With McCarthy
W21, D6, L10
Without McCarthy
W3, D4, L1
I did work out the points ratios but forgot to write them sown.
OK for last season without 1.3 with 1.78, diff 0.48 points per game, that is a LOT!
18 points over the season, it might be less in other years though or more!
IF every player gave you 18 extra points you would have 693.12 points in a season!
Interesting stats TC.
I'm not saying he's a bad player either lads. I'm merely pointing out that, aside from his first season, he hasn't impressed a lot of the fans that have watched him week in week out over the last three years. He struggles to impress quite a lot of the regular posters on here when he dons the green jersey. His performances against Belgium and to a lesser extent Sweden and France looked like he had nothing left in the tank. He was running on empty.
Now, all I'm really saying - and I think it's a fair question - is could his general downward curve over the last season and a half to two seasons be down to having played a hell of a lot of professional football for a 25 year old. Would his career benefit from a rest? I don't think it's that controversial and I'm not implying he's a bad player. I'm a fan and have been one of his most vociferous advocates on here over the years. In fact, almost none of the Everton fans say he's a bad player, just that, in performance terms, as Evertons went, so did McCarthys.
I think DeLorean makes a good case that he's impressed them well beyond his first season. He signed a five-year deal a year ago and it was widely viewed among fans as a great deal.
I'd still say his troubles maintaining the level of three years ago is down to injuries for the most part. I think we got roughly 150 pages of this thread solely from his injury-enforced withdrawals from Irish squads. Overwork is probably part of it too though - injury recovery, especially when it's niggly ones like James had had rather than a broken bone or whatever, mean very little time for proper rest.
Yeah I know you're a fan. It's just a difficult question to answer unless you agree that his performances have been on a downward curve for nearly two years. He's had an underwhelming couple of months and that could certainly have been down to fatigue. For a guy with so many injury problems over the past year he played an awful lot of football in the last couple of months of the season, maybe it took it's toll and his Euro preparation was disrupted further after that. He had played a serious amount of high level football for a 25 year old and it's likely to catch up with him at some point, but I wouldn't think he'd have reached that stage yet. I hope not anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
wrote this about McCarthy's influence on the results at Everton a little over a year ago: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/Blog...58226553370010
McCarthy and O'Shea playing in unfamiliar positions this weekend, but at least they were playing. Gueye and Barry the chosen two in midfield, with plenty of other options in reserve.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport...uture-11747638
According to Koeman as of a week ago, Gibson isn't fit enough to be considered.
I have to think that his contract extension was agreed without Koeman's input. Very strange considering the options they already have, and the finances they now have in place to attract overrated players like Yannick Bolasie for grossly inflated fees.
Is Gibson injured or just generally unfit? Pretty bad if it's the latter.
Weird article overall, lots of baseless assumptions (it seems to me anyway), such as:
What is Koeman's opinion of him? Just because Koeman thought he was the best option for right wing back doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be the best option for central midfield had Coleman been available. He was hardly going to stick Gareth Barry there!Quote:
Now the Republic of Ireland international has the job of changing Koeman’s opinion of him.
I heard Koeman's interview after the match and he mentioned that Barkley and one or two others will have to work harder. If working hard is the name of the game you'd have to think that McCarthy has every chance of succeeding under him, depending on transfer activity of course. Barry turns 36 this season as well.
What shackles? If anything the lack of shackles throughout the team was what cost Martinez his job.Quote:
Playing as a right wing-back against Spurs, the ‘old’ McCarthy shone through again. Releasing the shackles of the Martinez era already looks to be taking effect.
the train of thought amongst Everton fans is that Gueye (who was excellent by the way, I watched the entire game) will carry out the defensive holding duties that McCarthy had been doing under Martinez so to that extent he was being "shackled" and that there is a need for a more box-to-box midfielder. Witsel or Carvalho were supposed to be that signing but those deals have both fallen through for now so it remains to be seen whether McCarthy can prove to RK that he can carry out that role. He certainly wont get the chance to prove it if he is being asked to play RWB when RK shifts to 3 at the back. Barry doesn't have the legs for that role anymore but a lot seem to think that Barkley could do that quite well (I disagree, I think he gives the ball away way too cheaply).
I certainly feel more positive about McCarthy's prospects at Everton than I did a few weeks ago but all signs point to the fact that Everton are still in the market for a midfielder or two so it is a weakness in RKs eyes. Plus the rumours about Stoke wanting to sign McCarthy are not going away.
TOWK re Bolasie. 20-25m is the figure I have seen bandied about for that one and while I agree it is on the high side you have to look at the market as a whole and how inflated that is this year. Its ridiculous. Given the massive TV money that has been received it seems clubs want other clubs to spend it. It is an issue of economics and market etc as opposed to an Everton issue. I think Mane for 35m, Stones for 50m and Pogba for 90m are obscene sums.
I saw clips of Gueye alright. He kind of reminded me of Kante, who is a box-to-box type but maybe Gueye is more defensive.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Afaiu the writer was referring to Martinez' system having a negative effect on McCarthy's natural game.
"His commitment was never in question, but the system Martinez was playing didn’t suit him for the majority of fixtures and didn’t let him put in the energetic and assured performances to which Blues fans had become accustomed. Playing as a right wing-back against Spurs, the ‘old’ McCarthy shone through again. Releasing the shackles of the Martinez era already looks to be taking effect."
Wasn't it Martinez system that allowed him to flourish in the first place though? Did McCarthy's role in the side change at some stage?
According to the writer, McCarthy did flourish early on under Martinez, but it was the "system" that did him in, chopped his wings so to say. I assume he regards the Martinez "system" as a thing of evil which kicked in after some period of time under Martinez.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I have only watched Everton on rare occasions in the past 2 seasons, I have no opinion.
Any word on what McGeady is at? Doesn't look like Koeman fancies him.
Gibson seemed to be doing well in pre-season. Hopefully both their agents are working overtime
No place for McGeady at Everton (didn't even get a squad number). I wouldn't be surprised if he went to Celtic on loan or something maybe. Can't see many Championship level teams taking a punt on him given how he flopped at Wednesday. I think he's good enough for the Championship but it's a bad spot he finds himself in.
Why would you say that he's good enough? The SWFC manager really fancied him, having seen him in the CL, and gave him every chance and he just wasn't up to it. Unfortunately, he's on a downward spiral and a loan move to Celtic might help but at 30 years of age, I don't see him ever recovering his old form. Hopefully I am wrong but obviously he has to get out of Everton.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Total hindsight here as I thought it was a great move for him at the time, but Wednesday were going very well when he came in. He needed to hit the ground running to cement his place, seeing as the other players were doing so well. Carvalhal didn't have the luxury of allowing McGeady to find his feet and work his way into a bit of form at the business end of the season, although he did try to be fair. Okay, even allowing for that, it still turned out to be a disaster the way it ended up but that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't do well at another Championship club. That's still a career on a pretty severe downward spiral but it's surely the very least he's capable of if his application is right, on and off the pitch. I'd love to see him go back to Celtic though where he'd be appreciated from the start instead of probably ridiculed.
Yeah, when results went pear shaped no doubt. I never noticed any significant change in McCarthy's role within the team anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'd say there's some correlation between McCarthy's role/effect within the team and the Martinez system.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
In a nutshell, McCarthy had a very good first year, Everton were good defensively and offensively. As the Martinez system kicked in, the defensive inheritance from the Moyes era deteriorated rapidly and midfield was porous. James's form suffered and he picked up injuries.
Imo James was demonstrably poor and unfit at the Euros, poor against Belgium and flagged something awful in the 2nd half v France. I'd say he has much ground to make up if he's to nail his starting place with Everton.
I felt he did well at Wednedsay when I saw him play but it didn't seem to fit the system maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
There's no reason he can't play championship. I thought he did well in his couple of cameos at the euros too
I think that now, not only is Martinez slated for his last two seasons, but any praise he received for his first has also be withdrawn. Extra credit is now going towards Moyes, despite Martinez being hailed as a messiah at the time, a breath of fresh air after the turgid football under his predecessor.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
McCarthy's good form/development has to be attributed to Martinez in my opinion, he was never even managed by Moyes, not that you're saying he was. If anything, when Martinez took over, the shackles of the Moyes era were initially shifted. They progressed rapidly from being pretty solid to an expansive side, whilst retaining their solidity. Obviously that didn't last though.
I think an awful lot of the Everton support (including that writer) will use anything to have a cut off Martinez now. For all his shortcomings I think he's been nothing but a positive influence for McCarthy's career. In short... shackles my arse!
I agree that McCarthy has it all to do the cement his place in the Everton midfield. Maybe he should stick with it though if it doesn't happen straight away, just look at Shane Long and the season and a half it took for him to convince Koeman that he's worth his place. Obviously if they do sign some genuinely top class midfielders he'll have to reevaluate, but I don't see any reason he can't be an important player as things stand.
I am not apportioning any blame for his performances on SWFC or the manager so I am sorry if it comes across that way. His failures are completely on him. I only meant that I think he has the skill and talent to play at a Championship level and, for whatever reasons, it didn't work out for him at SWFC last season. Despite me believing that he did not deserve to be on the plane to France, his sub appearances at the Euros told me that he still has something to contribute at a decent level.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
After coming on for the last bit of Rooney's testimonial, Koeman reported the next day that he wouldn't be fit for the Espanyol friendly. It didn't sound like an actual injury, so some kind of general unfitness or individual fitness management perhaps. Not exactly promising but we'll see. He was back training last week before the first PL game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Lack of fitness?
Probably just more lingering effects from the Martinez era.
You try training with these on...
http://blog.adw.org/wp-content/uploa...5/shackles.jpg
Is that a shot from your bedroom, DeLorean?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Gibson, McGeady and now McCarthy the latest Irishman to be put on blast by Koeman. Taken off in first half against West Brom. Everton duly equalize.
Being taken off in the first half is a bad sign, it is normally more indicative of injury?
According to his stats he made 32 passes with a 93% success rates, no tackle or anything else though.
BBC5 said at the time is was tactical I'm pretty sure.
It is rare to get subbed before half time not matter now bad you are, so with that and his stats I would suggest it was tactical?
Indeed they were a goal down and brought on an attacking player for a defensive one so it does suggest a tactical substitution.
I saw when he was subbed and it didn't look as if was due to bad play on his part.