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He wasn't listed as a substitute by the BBC or Sky Sports.
Not unless there's been a sudden surge of interest in Buddhism...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
How would it be a Hobson's choice? They would be eligible for an integrated Irish team a la the IRFU/ICU/IHA teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Their Britishness would not even be a consideration in this eventuality unless they wished to pursue it with Wales/England/Scotland which again would be them demonstrating that they feel Welsh/English/Scottish more than they feel Irish.
You are applying today's realities to a hypothetical future eventuality. If this future eventuality were ever to arise, you would have to accept that all of those on the island are willing to a little give and take in that regard which is what would lead to it happening in the first place.
Their only choice in a UI scenario, under current Statutes, would be to play for Ireland - if they wished to have an International career.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Players would not have the choice to play for a British team, under current Statutes, unless they met one of the existing criteria - even though a player would have British Citizenship and identify themselves solely as British.
Theoretically, I suppose there could be a single United Kingdom team in years to come - in that scenario, there would be a clear choice for players.
But why would it be an issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
So how do you propose you resolve that (non-)issue... Maybe have a single team solely for those of a unionist Irish tradition... Maybe call it Northern Ireland?
Again you are applying the world you know with the world that you don't (no more than I do). But it seems like the idea of feeling "British" within a United Ireland set up wouldn't be much of a problem given that the IRFU, ICU and IHA seem to already have that covered.
Hypothetically, it could be an issue because some footballers born on this island with British Citizenship might want to play International football for a team that represents their (solely) British identity and, under current FIFA Statutes, that would not be possible (unless the player met the criteria to play for one of the British Associations ie. parent etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I don't propose anything to solve it, because it's a non issue.
But there is no team that represents a "sole" British identity, and there never has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
There have been teams representing the four distinct nationalities of the United Kingdom since the beginning of soccer unless we start to talk about the Olympic teams and to be honest that has always missed the Irish boat both United and Northern.
There are currently four Associations that require British Citizenship in order to represent them.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Hypothetically, if there was a single Irish team, I would want players from this island with British Citizenship (and who identify as solely British) to have the choice to play for either Ireland or any one of the British Associations. That would seem fair to me.
There are currently 4 associations that require British citizenship (along with other unique criteria) and there always has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
However, as I said, there is no singular association that "solely" represents "the British identity".
In the event that there is a United Irish nation and presuming the FAI and IFA follow suit and merge as a result of the geopolitical changes then why would the FAW, FA and SFA need to step into the breach for those that feel alienated about their "Britishness" not being represented by the Irish team.
The RFU, SRU and WRU don't seem to need to step in!
To be clear, the 'unique criteria' you mention is only set by themselves, and in some instances ignored. British citizens from the Channel Islands for example can choose to play for any of the home nations. Trevor Wood (born in Jersey, residing in England) had no link to Northern Ireland when he played for them for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Hypothetically, it would be FIFA who would be required to step in.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I don't believe that a player from this island who solely identifies as British, and has British Citizenship, should ever have to play for an International team that he does not feel represents his Nationality/Identity, or else be denied an International career.
In the same way that any player from Northern Ireland who solely identifies as Irish, and has Citizenship of the the Republic Of Ireland, should not be forced to play for an International team that he does not feel represents his Nationality/Identity, or else be denied an International career.
Rugby is a bad analogy - as there never was a choice.
The "unique criteria" Bonnie mentions is actually a FIFA Eligibility Statute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
But like I said, it can be ignored Such as the Trevor Wood example. I've no issue at all with any British citizens playing for any of England, Scotland, wales should there be a Unified Ireland teamQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yeah, but why would they want them? They have enough rubbish of their own...
I think "ignored" is not the right terminology Dodge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The salient Statute deals with players born in Northern Ireland, England, Scotland & Wales - there have been anomolies, such as Channel Islanders.
The use of the phrase "unique criteria" was meant to convey that it solely applies to the 4 UK associations. I'm sorry if it confused the matter and then became a point of discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Now, whether Dodge or NB do or don't mind northern born citizens who are eligible to be citizens of the hypothtical State of Great Britain to play for the soccer teams of Scotland, Wales or England is irrelevant.
In this hypothetical scenario why would the FA, SFA and FAW need to be involved at all when Ireland would have it's own national team.
It is you NB, that says that their "Britishness" wouldn't be represented in this new entity. I don't see how it couldn't but be represented for if we were to get to the point where a UI is possible then we would have to assume that the Unionist minority on the Island have been appeased in some way shape or form in order for such an eventuality to transpire. Especially as at that stage the soccer team wouldn't exactly be that difficult a hurdle to overcome!
Hypothetically, a "unified" Irish State, and in consequence it's football Association, would have challenges regarding inclusive representation - New Anthem, new flag etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
It's not an issue, so little point in trying to secondguess how that would all pan out.
Of course it would have challenges. The reasoning behind my argument were your repeated statements alluding to the lack of inclusivity of this "new" State for those of a Unionist bent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It harks back frightfully to Carson.
Regardless of the "inclusivity" of such a, hypothetical, State, many people within it would remain British Citizens, and identify solely as "British" - as would be their absolute right. In terms of their Citizenship and Identity nothing would change for them in a singular Irish State. That's all sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Yeah, but for once I agree with NB. This hypothetical situation may well play out one day but is a long way off, whilst international football representation rights are going to be at the bottom of its list of priorities, FFS.
Whilst true. It is the pretinence to the football representaion rights that is interesting for us here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It was NB's odd stance which I tried to tease out and seemingly made him more entrenched in this odd scenario.
I don't think my stance in such an odd scenario is odd at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I think that in such an odd scenario, a British Citizen from this island should have a right to represent one of the British Associations.
Assuming that the 3 British associations pick a player that is eligible is fine and no different than what already exists in essence for anyone holding dual citizenship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It seems though that you were taking a bizarre and righteous stance on what was already a right and that the FA/FAW/SFA should "rescue" British citizens who don't feel Irish enough but feel Welsh/Scottish/English enough to play for those respective asscoiations.
A player born in Northern Ireland has no absolute right to play for England, Scotland or Wales as things stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
In the hypothetical situation whereby a player from here cannot play for a British Association, as he can do at present ie. Northern Ireland, I simply feel the absolute right to represent another British Association should be afforded to him.
For example, if a great talent emerged from this island who idenified solely as British (and had British Citizenship) he may feel more at home playing for England than for an Ireland team which he may feel represents him less. I guess that would depend on symbolism etc.
Anyway, it's all very hypothetical.
Who you reckon you'd play for? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
What criterion did this Trevor Wood chap satisfy? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Article 6 (2) states in relation to the criterion demanding a player must satisfy two years of residence, if failing to satify any of the other criteria:
"Regardless of par. 1 above, Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit. Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee."
Whilst it provides the four British associations with a certain level of discretion, it doesn't appear to offer Wood any leeway, for the time limit cannot be shortened. If the article was deleted, he would have to satisfy one of the others, presumably, whilst lengthening the time limit wouldn't be of much use to him either.
Edit: Just realising Wood played for NI in 1995. Isn't he in a similar boat to Maik Taylor then, and hasn't that option been closed for British citizens in similar circumstances, Channel Islanders, et cetera?
I don't know DI - I guess it would depend a lot on the metabolism of the set-up. My playing days are long over anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I asked my son on this question a while back - he would likely opt to represent Scotland in the event of there only being one "Ireland" team - the birthplace of his late grandfather.
You're right - rules have changed since Wood, Taylor etc.
...and if Scotland were to secede...? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Perish the thought - His Granda would turn in his grave.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
For someone who's apparently half-Scottish, you seem more fixated on the idea of the current antiquated set-up than most Scots I've met...
of whom quite a few don't see themselves as 'British', even if they're not especially pro-independence.
:rolleyes:
And here I was thinking you two had fallen in love! :D
Is it not a game of 2 halves, a 50/50 chance of being half-Scottish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I'm not "half-Scottish".Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
"Full-Scottish"??
;)
Wow, NB you place such great weight in the British identity. Can I just ask what makes you feel such a strong affinity with same, especially in light of the fact that such an identity may well be conceded in Scotland?
NB has his identity and that's entirely valid and fair enough. He's as protective/defensive about his heritage as we who identify with the Irish national identity would get if there was talk of Ireland re-joining the UK. I don't think there's anything odd or undue about it given he naturally feels that talk of a united Ireland under current circumstances would put his national identity under threat. If a united Ireland is ever to be realised, it's people like NB who we need to convince that their identity will be a welcome and enriching one in an undeniably pluralist state. For the record, I think Ireland is a pluralist state as it is, but, broadly-speaking, unionists either don't seem convinced or want little to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Just because there's talk of Scotland seceding from the UK, doesn't mean there aren't those in Scotland who also strongly cherish their British identity. Isn't the for/against split about 50-50 in Scotland at the minute? It's not a certainty that Scotland will secede, and if it is to do so, there'll be a lot of unhappy British-identifying Scots, I would imagine.
I guess for the same reasons that you feel a "strong affinity" with the Irish identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
What Scotland does in 2014 - and I am confident that Scotland will remain in the United Kingdom - it will not make my identity any different. In the event that Scotland does secede, there will be a large proportion of the population there who will continue to have a strong affinity with the British identity.
A positive and reasonable upbeat article about NI and it includes some references to the IFA's attempts to work witht the GAA to build bridges, worth reading, though the reporter's reference to calling it the North won't please Ardee! Can I just commend the contributors who have been involved in some great debate of late, there seems to be some very constructive and positive comments being made.
NB, Would love to read about how you think O 'Neill has gone as a manager so far?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...326696332.html
Well Gastric, there's more to come because Danny reawakened a latent issue re the northern "British" identity that I have. It's one that I Can never reconcile with my own Dublin Nationalist Protestant identity... it continues...
You Protestants; up to no good as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
You northerners up to no good as... oh... wait...