FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

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31/05/2006, 1:42 PM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Which will be miles too late. How come fans of other clubs know exactly who Ollie has sold out to and exactly who bailed him out with the Revenue yet you lot don't seem bothered by the implications? I'm baffled TBH.

KOH

What are these implications ?
31/05/2006, 1:43 PM
R�iteoir

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Which will be miles too late. How come fans of other clubs know exactly who Ollie has sold out to and exactly who bailed him out with the Revenue yet you lot don't seem bothered by the implications? I'm baffled TBH.

KOH

Heads seem to be either firmly in the sand or firmly up Oily's arse - you can't see any kind of picture from either of those places
31/05/2006, 1:43 PM
Breifne

Quote:

Originally Posted by R�iteoir

Rankings and points distribution for the four seasons from 2002/03 - 1 Shelbourne (300), 2 Longford Town (290), 3 Cork City (280), 4 Bohemians (270), 5 Derry City (260), 6 Drogheda United (250), 7 St Patrick's Athletic (240), 8 Shamrock Rovers (230), 9 Waterford United (220), 10 UCD (210), 11 Bray Wanderers (200), 12 Finn Harps (190), 13 Dublin City (180), 14 Sligo Rovers (170), 15 Galway United (160), 16 Kildare County (150), 17 Cobh Ramblers (140), 18 Limerick (130), 19 Dundalk (120), 20 Kilkenny City (110), 21 Monaghan United (100), 22 Athlone Town (90).

My records indicate the following

Club Pts Final Pts 5 Sea. Diff FAI Rank
Longford Town 115 300 270 +30 2
Cork City 112 290 280 +10 3
Bohemians 108.5 280 300 -20 4
Shelbourne 104 270 260 +10 1
Derry City 102 260 290 -30 5
Drogheda United 90 250 230 +20 6
St. Patricks Athletic 90 240 250 -10 7
Waterford United 83 230 210 +20 9
Shamrock Rovers 80 220 240 -20 8
UCD 73 210 220 -10 10
Bray Wanderers 63 200 200 0 11
Finn Harps 57 190 190 0 12
Dublin City 50 180 180 0 13
Sligo Rovers 46 170 160 +10 14
Galway United 44 160 170 -10 15
Kildare County 40 150 130 +20 16
Cobh Ramblers 36 140 140 0 17
Limerick 28 130 120 +10 18
Dundalk 27 120 150 -30 19
Kilkenny City 23 110 110 0 20
Monaghan United 20 100 100 0 21
Athlone Town 19 90 90 0 22

As you can see the 4 / 5 season issue has a huge impact on 15 on the league clubs, and as it may come down to the difference in a few points at the end of the day it seems a little bit strange. I think this shows the holes in the entire system. Especially the FAI seem to have some fixation with the FAI getting Shelbourne to the top of the table.

I have the actual records in excel, if anyone wants them.

Shelbourne have been awarded 9.5 points for their european adventure in 2004 with an allocation of 7.5 points for their games in 2005.
Even the most ardent reds fan would have to admit their record doesn't match up. If you were to apply this scoring system (1 point for a win, .5 for a draw) Liverpool (Champions League Winners (2004-2005) would have recieved a total of 10 points, half a point more than Shelbourne. Slightly worrying.

The other thing is that the Official consideration document from the FAI states five years, and names specific seasons, they can't move the goalposts during the course of consideration.
31/05/2006, 1:46 PM
R�iteoir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breifne

I have the actual records in excel, if anyone wants them.

Could you send them through to me - could make for interesting reading
31/05/2006, 1:55 PM
Jerry The Saint

Anyone still in any doubt as to the shoddiness of these new proposals?

Obviously, Shelbourne have the best League record over the 4/5 season's in question but all figures calculated by people on here have them down the list, due to their poor cup form (which in itself shows the flawed nature of the rankings). The FAI MUST publish the full breakdown of how they have fudged their own criteria to put Shels on top - the plausibility of this whole operation depends on it.

On a side note - you know the 1000 points that are to be divvied up by the Independent Assessment Group? I'd like to be the first person to officially call these 'Niall Quinn's Disco Points'.
31/05/2006, 1:58 PM
Roverstillidie

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

What are these implications ?

are you asking what the implications of being evicted from tolka, possibly this year, without any plans for a new stadium are? :confused:
31/05/2006, 2:00 PM
Breifne

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint

Anyone still in any doubt as to the shoddiness of these new proposals?

Obviously, Shelbourne have the best League record over the 4/5 season's in question but all figures calculated by people on here have them down the list, due to their poor cup form (which in itself shows the flawed nature of the rankings). The FAI MUST publish the full breakdown of how they have fudged their own criteria to put Shels on top - the plausibility of this whole operation depends on it.

On a side note - you know the 1000 points that are to be divvied up by the Independent Assessment Group? I'd like to be the first person to officially call these 'Niall Quinn's Disco Points'.

I have a hard copy of the official FAI scoring system here. Its pants, mistakes all over the shop. trying to get it scanned now
31/05/2006, 2:16 PM
Hitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint

I'd like to be the first person to officially call these 'Niall Quinn's Disco Points'.

I feel the entire decision-making process should be turned over to you immediately purely on the basis of that comment.
31/05/2006, 2:39 PM
WeAreRovers

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

What are these implications ?

Eh, homelessness and all that goes with it............

BTW This mess with the 4/5 seasons points is an open invitation to legal proceedings.

KOH
31/05/2006, 2:54 PM
Mr A

Quote:

BTW This mess with the 4/5 seasons points is an open invitation to legal proceedings.

Most probably just one of many.

There should definately have been points awarded for most effective legal challenge to the new proposals.
31/05/2006, 2:56 PM
R�iteoir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

Most probably just one of many.

There should definately have been points awarded for most effective legal challenge to the new proposals.

The FAI have already factored that in.

How else do you think Shels managed to go from 4th or so straight to the top?
31/05/2006, 2:56 PM
Ash

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

Most probably just one of many.

There should definately have been points awarded for most effective legal challenge to the new proposals.

Ahhh fcuk. 2000/01 season was our only decent one in tha last 5. That was
the promotion play-off year, since then we've been re-election fodder :(
31/05/2006, 3:00 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash

Ahhh fcuk. 2000/01 season was our only decent one in tha last 5. That was
the promotion play-off year, since then we've been re-election fodder :(

It's the season after that that's been dropped.
31/05/2006, 3:12 PM
manic da hoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by higgins

What are these implications ?

Say no more:rolleyes:
31/05/2006, 3:19 PM
sullanefc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

This comes from today's Independent. It shows that the FAI didn't put a hell of a lot of thought into the system given that they missed the Kildare issue. While like most here I feel that there is much that is good in the proposals, there's no denying that it's still pretty half-assed. Still the clubs will be railroaded into it and the wheels will probably come off down the line a bit.

It also shows that the FAI did not work out the individual scores prior to releasing the conditions which further shows that they did not weigh the scoring system in favour of some of the "favoured clubs".

This would dispel much of the accusations from UCD fans that the FAI are trying to make out the scoring system to suit certain teams.
31/05/2006, 3:24 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by sullanefc

This would dispel much of the accusations from UCD fans that the FAI are trying to make out the scoring system to suit certain teams.

Answer this one please:

Quote:

Originally Posted by R�iteoir

Rankings and points distribution for the four seasons from 2002/03 - 1 Shelbourne (300), 2 Longford Town (290), 3 Cork City (280), 4 Bohemians (270)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breifne

My records indicate the following

Club Pts Final Pts 5 Sea. Diff FAI Rank
Longford Town 115 300 270 +30 2
Cork City 112 290 280 +10 3
Bohemians 108.5 280 300 -20 4
Shelbourne 104 270 260 +10 1
...

Shelbourne have been awarded 9.5 points for their european adventure in 2004 with an allocation of 7.5 points for their games in 2005.
Even the most ardent reds fan would have to admit their record doesn't match up. If you were to apply this scoring system (1 point for a win, .5 for a draw) Liverpool (Champions League Winners (2004-2005) would have recieved a total of 10 points, half a point more than Shelbourne. Slightly worrying.
31/05/2006, 4:05 PM
seand

I just love the line about the FAI "discovering" that Kildare are only in the league 4 years.

The people who are deciding our futures have just "discovered" Kildare County... GOD HELP US ALL.
31/05/2006, 4:10 PM
Red4Eva

http://www.irishfootballonline.com/n...hp?newsid=4730

desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. must borrow a leinster jersey off sum1 next time we're playin in belfield
31/05/2006, 4:12 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by sullanefc

This would dispel much of the accusations from UCD fans that the FAI are trying to make out the scoring system to suit certain teams.

(a) No such direct accusation has been made. It's merely been stated that's it's nonsense, unfair in general and that we're likely to suffer.
(b) In any event, it doesn't dispel any such accusations. What's at issue is the fact that attendances and geography are being used as criteria. The fact that the 2001/02 on-field criteria are now being excluded doesn't change this in the slightest.
31/05/2006, 4:14 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red4Eva

must borrow a leinster jersey off sum1 next time we're playin in belfield

It's a one-off promotion as far as I know. Sorry!
31/05/2006, 4:14 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red4Eva

Must borrow a Leinster jersey off someone next time we're playing in Belfield

[txtspk edited out]

I imagine it's a one-off for the Derry game. It's an interesting promotional idea, I think. It's also completely off topic.
31/05/2006, 4:15 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

[txtspk edited out]

I imagine it's a one-off for the Derry game. It's an interesting promotional idea, I think. It's also completely off topic.

Ha ha. Too slow. :p
31/05/2006, 4:16 PM
pineapple stu

Damn textspeak! :)
31/05/2006, 4:34 PM
Jerry The Saint

Quote:

Originally Posted by seand

The people who are deciding our futures have just "discovered" Kildare County

It's always in the last place you look. :rolleyes: :D
31/05/2006, 4:40 PM
sullanefc

Quote:

Originally Posted by John83

Answer this one please:

Answer what exactly??
31/05/2006, 4:48 PM
pineapple stu

Why, if clubs aren't being favoured, Shels are being favoured.
31/05/2006, 4:54 PM
Mr A

What does it matter what the ranking at the top of the pile mean. Unless there's serious problems with Shels in another area their record and current facilities are always going to get them in the premier anyway. Who cares if they're 1st or 5th? I can't see any motivation for the FAI changing anything to boost their ranking when it makes no difference whatsoever.

The only thing that might keep any of the current top clubs out of the premier is licensing issues, which should be being enforced anyway.
31/05/2006, 5:18 PM
sullanefc

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Why, if clubs aren't being favoured, Shels are being favoured.

Well according to Breifne, shels have fallen because of this dropped season. IF the FAI had done out league tables and adjusted the scoring system to suit, they would have noticed that Kildare are missing for one season and would have come up with a different scoring system to suit shels, if they are favouring them.

The fact that this is not the case would suggest that the FAI did not come up with a scoring system to suit certain teams.
31/05/2006, 5:40 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by northside hoop

Am I missing something here? Shels get 9.5 points. They played 8 games ( 6 in the qualifiers and 2 in UEFA) so the maximum amout of points full stop they could have got is 8.

The scoring system quoted must be wrong. Were exactly have these figures been plucked from.

I'd imagine they were using the UEFA system of scoringhigher pooints in higher rounds but then UEFA don't give points for intertoto and apparently FAI do so that theory's gone.

Seems very strange alright...
31/05/2006, 6:18 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by sullanefc

The fact that this is not the case would suggest that the FAI did not come up with a scoring system to suit certain teams.

Again, as I noted elsewhere, the scoring system to suit other clubs wouldn't be contained in the on-field criteria, which are factually definable, but in the off-field criteria, which are not.
01/06/2006, 12:23 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

What does it matter what the ranking at the top of the pile mean. Unless there's serious problems with Shels in another area their record and current facilities are always going to get them in the premier anyway. Who cares if they're 1st or 5th? I can't see any motivation for the FAI changing anything to boost their ranking when it makes no difference whatsoever.

The only thing that might keep any of the current top clubs out of the premier is licensing issues, which should be being enforced anyway.

Exactly GH ! Was there ever any doubt that Shelbourne would figure somewhere in the Top 10 clubs in the land - and thereby retain their premier status ? Answer : absolutely not. They have been the most consistent Irish team in the league and in Europe over the last 4/5 years, and also have one of the best stadiums, average or better-than-average crowds, and a strong potential. They're therefore a shoe-in for a Premier slot.

So why in the name of God would the FAI need to tinker with their score at all ??

The conspiracy theorists on here would need to catch themsleves on sometimes. It really isn't healthy......
01/06/2006, 1:02 AM
Mr A

OK- I think the simple answer is that having released the document the FAI then changed the scoring of Euro game. A bit stupid to get it wrong after all the time they've had to do it, but that's the FAI for you. The whole document has the feel of one not quite finished, it's as if they left til the last week and then did it all in one big rush.
01/06/2006, 9:47 AM
Jerry The Saint

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So why in the name of God would the FAI need to tinker with their score at all ??

The conspiracy theorists on here would need to catch themsleves on sometimes. It really isn't healthy......

It's not about conspiracy theories, it's about blatant incompetence!

- The FAI did not realise that Kildare were missing a season until they had sent out rankings to the clubs (and if they did know about Kildare and did this on purpose then why are they changing it now:confused: )
- They have given 'windfall' bonus points to Shelbourne for their European achievements without a clear explanation of how these extra points relate to matches played.
- The figures distributed by the FAI do not match calculations made by more than one person on here based on the supposed criteria (evidence of the FAI getting their sums wrong)
- Without the windfall points, Shelbourne are ranked as the fourth best team in recent seasons. This clearly shows that the FAI criteria give too much prominence to cup results.

It seems to me that a football ranking list for the last few seasons that didn't have Shelbourne on top of the table would be a massive red flag that the system might just be a wee bit flawed, before we even move onto the other 50%+ (because no club can get less than 90 points) of overall ranking.

We all know that Shels are well connected with the FAI (even more than we realised if Rico is to be believed;) ) but they don't actually have any stadium plans apart from having to move out of Tolka and we know about their spot of bother with the revenue. If they only had a mediocre ranking from their on-pitch performance (after investing outlandishly on this), then an independent advisory group could have the means to make them sweat a little on the off-field criteria, if they had a mind to...
01/06/2006, 10:21 AM
Mr_T

The FAI changed the scoring system for European results to give higher weighting to the Champions League, i.e. they felt it was unfair to give the same bonus for CL as Intertoto. Thats what I've been told anyhow.

Think the scoring is now as follows:

CL 3 for win, 1.5 for draw.
UEFA 2 for win, 1 for draw.
Intertoto 1 for win, 0.5 for draw.
01/06/2006, 10:28 AM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

are you asking what the implications of being evicted from tolka, possibly this year, without any plans for a new stadium are? :confused:

Well you see you left the part out where you think there are no plans for a new stadium of your earlier post.
If thats what you think then thats what you think.

Doesnt mean its true..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

How come fans of other clubs know exactly who Ollie has sold out to and exactly who bailed him out with the Revenue yet you lot don't seem bothered by the implications?

Again I would like to know the implications ?
01/06/2006, 10:33 AM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Again, as I noted elsewhere, the scoring system to suit other clubs wouldn't be contained in the on-field criteria, which are factually definable, but in the off-field criteria, which are not.

paranoid :eek:

This whole thing has yet to start and your talking about suiting other teams ..

I suppose they have Niall Quinn in on this too and they have told him about the massive love affair with Shels and to give them 1000 points.

Actually I woundnt be surprised if Shels were to get some of UCD's points too and end up with over 1000 !!
01/06/2006, 10:38 AM
Magicme

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

The above post and this piece of drivel from the Connacht Telegraph show why this league will never get out of the parochial little hole that it's in -

KOH

http://www.connaughttelegraph.net/

"Rovers may be at a low ebb following their relegation last season from the top flight from the national game, but their form since the start of the new campaign on march 10th last suggest the Dublin club is far from down in the dumps with six wins in ten outings.

The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".

Consequently, Celtic's big match preparations have been overshadowed by concerns over security arrangements and ground improvements rather than how player-manager Gavin Dykes is planning to use his experience to try and pull off one of the biggest shocks in the history of the competition."

Bullcrap......The only trouble the Rovers fans caused in Monaghan is that they tried to claim Robbie Horgan as theirs! Seriously tho, they were the among the best and most polite fans to come to CHP in a long time.

Jaysus journos will believe what they want and type some tripe.
01/06/2006, 10:39 AM
higgins

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Exactly GH ! Was there ever any doubt that Shelbourne would figure somewhere in the Top 10 clubs in the land - and thereby retain their premier status ? Answer : absolutely not. They have been the most consistent Irish team in the league and in Europe over the last 4/5 years, and also have one of the best stadiums, average or better-than-average crowds, and a strong potential. They're therefore a shoe-in for a Premier slot.

So why in the name of God would the FAI need to tinker with their score at all ??

The conspiracy theorists on here would need to catch themsleves on sometimes. It really isn't healthy......

One of the many decent posts from NON shels fans on this subject...
At least some people out there have a brain.

Of course I'll be jumped on for being a shels fan but I totally agree that there's NO need to mess around with figures that are meant to be exact when its clear Shels will be in the top 12 next season.

It just goes to show how deluded some of you are on this site..

HERES A SUGGESTION

Are the figure you got with Shels on top the OFFICIAL Released figures?
IF they are then contact whoever gave them out and ask as to how they were calculated.
When they get to the point where the ERROR occurs point it out to them and Im sure once they see they have made an error they will change it.
Either that or they will point out to you where YOU have made the error.

Its all based on FACTS and FIGURES so why anyone thinks the FAI would mess around is beyond me.
01/06/2006, 10:54 AM
manic da hoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magicme

Bullcrap......The only trouble the Rovers fans caused in Monaghan is that they tried to claim Robbie Horgan as theirs! Seriously tho, they were the among the best and most polite fans to come to CHP in a long time.

Jaysus journos will believe what they want and type some tripe.

Thank you!

You can let the journo in question know by e-mailing him at:

tkelly@con-telegraph.ie
01/06/2006, 11:01 AM
NY Hoop

Rubbish game however brightened by an exchange with a steward at the gate to a kid: "You'll have to take the top off the bottle before you come in".

Walk in and the locals are selling, wait for it, bottles with the tops on:D :D

Thank **** I wont be back there this season..........

KOH

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