Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's a disjointed one given the amount of leagues that aren't connected. And effectively useless as a result. So if it's a pyramid, it's not remotely worth red name in practice

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It's a start though. No point lashing out against a Third Tier because you want a full pyramid, which essentially ignores the huge complexities involved in getting to that stage.

Get the 3rd tier in place, hopefully it will prove successful, and then the gap between senior and intermediate/junior football will have shrunk. That should then help with doing all the other stuff needed to extend the pyramid further down in future. But if you're saying no to a 3rd tier until there is a complete pyramid in Irish football, you will probably be waiting a long time. Some more pyramid is better than none.

It's not a start though. It's an extension of an existing failed system. It has the potential to be worse than no pyramid - again, I'll cite how the A Championship screwed over Tralee Dynamoes and led to three Galway teams in the First Division.

The way to extend a pyramid is to provide links between existing leagues - eg Conference and Fourth Division in England, or Highland/Lowland League to League Two in Scotland. But what's below the First Division here is an utter mess, and I think that probably does need to be sorted out first (particularly the different seasons, but also the LSL/AUL/UCL nonsense, and the county leagues which just lead to clubs being happy being big fish in small ponds)

The Ulster Senior League from posts on here is struggling to gain traction. It is similarly difficult to see a Munster Senior League (currently a Cork Senior League!) gaining traction for the 5 other counties.
A third tier obviously doesn't create a pyramid. It can however be the first building block. We can't just magic up clubs as is said often. People can't be magically moving clubs from one league to another either.

Example 1) 24 first teams, 6 second teams and 4 third level teams is possibly achievable in the next 3 to 5 years:
Premier Division - 10 teams
First Division - 10 teams
National League - 14 teams

Example 2) 28 first teams, 9 second teams and 6 third level teams is possibly achievable in the next 5 to 10 years:
Premier Division - 10 teams
First Division - 10 teams
National League 1 - 10 teams
National League 2 - 13 teams

The league needs to get to a level where there is a clear pathway to join the league. The clear onus then would be on those not involved to join or not. The Premier Division and First Division should have a set number of teams e.g. 10 each.
The third tier should be adaptable based on numbers. If the third tier attracts more than 16 teams for example, it can be the trigger point to expand to a fourth tier.

You think we can find 9 new senior clubs in the next 3-5 years, or 18 new clubs in the next 5-10 years?

Seriously?

Of the 19 clubs in the LoI now, all bar Wexford were in the league in 1985, when the First Division was formed. We have effectively added one club in nearly 40 years - while also going from 22 to 19 clubs in the same time - and you think we can add a nett 9 new sides in the next 5 years?

I'll give him the 24 first teams in five years, as it's not beyond bounds that Mayo, Kildare, Kilkenny and Monaghan might join within that timeframe, depending on what happens with Kerry, but are university teams really likely to have any interest in a third tier?

Do Kilkenny exist in any form at the moment?

I think to get two of those four in the next five years - plus Kerry of course - would be an achievement. (I agree with you when you say "It's not beyond bounds that any of them might join")

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You think we can find 9 new senior clubs in the next 3-5 years, or 18 new clubs in the next 5-10 years?

Seriously?

Of the 19 clubs in the LoI now, all bar Wexford were in the league in 1985, when the First Division was formed. We have effectively added one club in nearly 40 years, and you think we can add 9 in the next 5 years?

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"A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined."
The A Championship had 8 first teams over 4 years. With Kerry possibly showing the way from youth leagues to senior, an A Championship Mk II can potentially attract 8 new senior clubs over 5 to 10 years.
4 potential new clubs are currently in the youth leagues. If 4 can successfully integrate to Third Tier / A Championship Mk II, will it influence other unrepresented district league regions to follow suit?
Secondly, third level teams can be invited to join the Third Tier / A Championship Mk II. Third level teams can be exempt from the youth leagues but ineligible for a promotion/relegation play-off. A First Division licence should only be granted to first teams who have teams in the youth leagues as well.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Of the 19 clubs in the LoI now, all bar Wexford were in the league in 1985, when the First Division was formed[

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Don't forget that one of your leading clubs, Derry City, kinda "fell into your lap" in 1985, too.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

We have effectively added one club in nearly 40 years - while also going from 22 to 19 clubs in the same time

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(Not making any political statement, but) It would be 18 but for the unusual/one-off circumstances of their joining the LOI.

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Originally Posted by legendz

"A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined."
The A Championship had 8 first teams over 4 years

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The A Championship was a failure. Will clubs want to go for what is essentially the exact same thing?

Would the FAI even let Salthill/Mervue apply given they they then quietly booted them out of the LoI to let Galway back in?

Cobh obviously won't be joining the LoI - they're already in it - so that's another of the eight gone.

Castlebar and Tullamore both withdrew from the league in 2010 - not a ringing endorsement there either.

Leaves Tralee (ie Kerry FC), Fanad and Carlow

"Are university teams really likely to have any interest in a third tier?"
I'd like to know too and I don't take it for granted that they will. It is achievable however for the likes of UCC, UL and NUIG to join a third tier, for players going beyond U19 level and going to university. There should at least be exploration talks between the FAI and universities, if they haven't taken place already. When the third tier was reported on last November, there was mention of "sides from the university and college ranks". I've taken my cue from there.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The A Championship was a failure. Will clubs want to go for what is essentially the exact same thing?

Would the FAI even let Salthill/Mervue apply given they they then quietly booted them out of the LoI to let Galway back in?

Cobh obviously won't be joining the LoI - they're already in it - so that's another of the eight gone.

Castlebar and Tullamore both withdrew from the league in 2010 - not a ringing endorsement there either.

Leaves Tralee (ie Kerry FC), Fanad and Carlow

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The youth leagues exist now and did not back in 2008-2011. Non LoI clubs can progress from Youth League to a third tier, if formed. The Youth League implementation of non LoI entities from non LoI areas joining can be extended to the third tier. This should avoid a repeat of the Salthill and Mervue situation.
2011 was signalled as the final season of the A Championship. Premier Division clubs were lobbying against having to field a second team. Castlebar and Tullamore weren't ready to apply for a First Division licence. A third tier in this current time should be for progress from youth level to senior level.
If a third tier is to be formed, at least 8 to 10 clubs will be required. It would be great to have a platform available for the 4 non LoI clubs at youth level. Noone is expecting a third tier to get off the ground unless a number of LoI clubs are involved. A third tier should be optional for LoI clubs. Are there 4 to 6 LoI clubs likely to be interested in having a second team for their players moving beyond U19 level?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The A Championship was a failure. Will clubs want to go for what is essentially the exact same thing?

Would the FAI even let Salthill/Mervue apply given they they then quietly booted them out of the LoI to let Galway back in?

Cobh obviously won't be joining the LoI - they're already in it - so that's another of the eight gone.

Castlebar and Tullamore both withdrew from the league in 2010 - not a ringing endorsement there either.

Leaves Tralee (ie Kerry FC), Fanad and Carlow

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FC Carlow don't exist either, I'm pretty sure they haven't since the A Championship ended and, if memory serves, they did apply for a First Division place. All of which only goes to show what a failure the A Championship was.

This theory that the youth leagues are a silver bullet/branch to pluck senior teams from is wishful thinking too though. LOADS of entities have played at various underage levels in my time following the league. UL played at one stage in (I think) the old U-21 league. They were terrible but I remember Roy O'Donovan playing for Cork's U-21s either on trial or just after he'd signed against them. Lifford out in Ennis played around the same time. It doesn't really mean anything other than there are always some clubs who are happy to play at that level without necessarily every intending to step up to senior. Sligo/Leitrim had a team too, Dublin University, NUIG. I'm pretty sure Mervue and Salthill started in the under-age leagues, for better or worse. Did Garda FC play underage at one point too or am I imagining it?

All that said I'd like to see a third tier in place if they can rustle up any sort of motley combination of clubs. I wouldn't be convinced of it's longevity either though.

Are Shamrock Rovers the only club with a desire and the means to field a second team?

The 'A' Championship was a half-baked idea, that offered no real long plans for new teams joining, and was only there for the reserve teams. It still attracted the interest of 7 non-league members. Salthill and Mervue being promoted were just accidents because the FAI wasn't paying attention to any medium or long-term plans for the Championship.
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By making this a new 'tier' of Irish football, instead of just a reserve league which the 'A' Championship was, you are saying that 1) it will be permanent (will have more resources/ more effort), 2) it will have prestige (not an 'A' Championship team but an LOI team).


I would still say this tier is a far more attractive option for clubs who want to expand past their junior leagues. These junior and intermediate leagues currently have plenty of issues. I know from talking with some, that there is frustration with the 'ceiling' for development, player retention abilities, and costs.


These leagues also hold less relative prestige than the LOI from a decade ago. For example, at the time of the A Championship, nearly every week, LOI clubs were in the news about potentially going to the wall. Now they are in the news for European runs and providing players for the National team. That makes a big difference for clubs.
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I think this Tier offers a lot more to non-league clubs than maybe you guys realise. I wouldn't be surprised if there was significant interest from non-LOI clubs.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Are Shamrock Rovers the only club with a desire and the means to field a second team?

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I’d say Derry,Dundalk and maybe Pats would be interested in one aswell…

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

The 'A' Championship was a half-baked idea, that offered no real long plans for new teams joining, and was only there for the reserve teams.

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But is the same not the case of the proposed third tier? It seems exactly the same just with a new name. I don't see how that adds extra prestige. Reserve teams are likely to be a core part of the division. The LSL voting against a switch to summer soccer indicates that there's still no (viable) medium or long-term plans for the division. There's nothing to stop it being done away with in the same way that the A Championship was - especially if the teams with reserve sides get cold feet. If there's only six clubs in the division, what do you do?

New third tier sides won't have to worry about European runs, so I don't think that news would be particularly relevant. In the last decade, we've lost a fair few clubs Monaghan, Limerick, Waterford United, Wexford Youths, Mervue, SD Galway, Cabinteely, Shamrock Rovers B, Shamrock Rovers II - all have left the league since 2012, either for financial reasons or because they didn't fit the FAI's plans.

I'm honestly not seeing what's changed since the A Championship days other than the youth leagues, and how relevant that is I'm not quite sure.

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Originally Posted by joey B

I’d say Derry,Dundalk and maybe Pats would be interested in one aswell…

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Pat's? Pat's were one of the main culprits in shooting down the A Championship. Pat's and Sligo absolutely detested being required to field a second team in the old A Championship.
Limerick 2008/2010/2011, Sporting Fingal 2009, Finn Harps 2010/2011 and Shelbourne 2010 are examples of First Division clubs who took part in the A Championship without obligation. First Division clubs partaking without obligation would give a glimmer of hope that enough LoI second teams is achievable.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Pat's? Pat's were one of the main culprits in shooting down the A Championship. Pat's and Sligo absolutely detested being required to field a second team in the old A Championship.
Limerick 2008/2010/2011, Sporting Fingal 2009, Finn Harps 2010/2011 and Shelbourne 2010 are examples of First Division clubs who took part in the A Championship without obligation. First Division clubs partaking without obligation would give a glimmer of hope that enough LoI second teams is achievable.

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It was just an opinion but that’s quite a while ago and the football landscape has changed a lot since then ,I’d think clubs would definitely find more value in reserves sides with more players staying longer than they would have back then,maybe I’m wrong,Pats underage setup is as good as there is in the league at the minute….

Any club with a decent academy should be interested in retaining some of the players from under 19s and also testing some of the better younger players against Men.
Particularly the ones near the top of the table where its obviously harder to blood younger players

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Originally Posted by legendz

"Are university teams really likely to have any interest in a third tier?"
I'd like to know too and I don't take it for granted that they will. It is achievable however for the likes of UCC, UL and NUIG to join a third tier, for players going beyond U19 level and going to university. There should at least be exploration talks between the FAI and universities, if they haven't taken place already. When the third tier was reported on last November, there was mention of "sides from the university and college ranks". I've taken my cue from there.

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I'd say most university teams are a non-runner. Mostly due to the calendar season.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Pat's? Pat's were one of the main culprits in shooting down the A Championship. Pat's and Sligo absolutely detested being required to field a second team in the old A Championship.
Limerick 2008/2010/2011, Sporting Fingal 2009, Finn Harps 2010/2011 and Shelbourne 2010 are examples of First Division clubs who took part in the A Championship without obligation. First Division clubs partaking without obligation would give a glimmer of hope that enough LoI second teams is achievable.

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Long time ago that. I’d say the situation had changed. It will be seen now as another avenue to develop players.

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Originally Posted by joey B

It was just an opinion but that’s quite a while ago and the football landscape has changed a lot since then ,I’d think clubs would definitely find more value in reserves sides with more players staying longer than they would have back then,maybe I’m wrong,Pats underage setup is as good as there is in the league at the minute….

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If Sligo and Pat's were to join a third tier without obligation, it would be a very positive change in the football landscape.
My guesstimation on the likelihood of LoI clubs fielding a second team:
1. Derry, Finn Harps, Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers, Treaty and Cork.
2. Bohemians and Shelbourne.
3. Sligo, Galway, St. Pat's, UCD and Waterford.

I'd be unsure of Sligo and Pat's after they shot down the A Championship. Have Galway any arrangements after the Salthill and Mervue nightmare that might exclude them from fielding a second team?
UCD I'm told already have a U23 policy. Waterford under a change of ownership will be an unknown. A few years back Waterford were building good connection with areas not represented at LoI level. It was a sensible move.
Would Bohs and Shels have the means to field a second team? Stadium developments etc. in the pipeline.

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung, and with the new Pats-Cherry Orchard agreement, they're putting increased focus now on youth development - Treaty and Harps would appear less probable unless either or both are in the Premier when it's established.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Any club with a decent academy should be interested in retaining some of the players from under 19s and also testing some of the better younger players against Men.
Particularly the ones near the top of the table where its obviously harder to blood younger players

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I'd say most university teams are a non-runner. Mostly due to the calendar season.

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Not entirely. It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

I can't see Treaty rushing to take part in a third tier. They seem quite cautious in their approach to things (and more power to them while they try and build foundations). Limerick FC are probably more likely to apply but I'm not sure the appetite is there with the POS Experience either.

As a disclaimer I'm about a million miles away from the pulse of what is happening with Limerick football these days. 🙂

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Originally Posted by culloty82

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung, and with the new Pats-Cherry Orchard agreement, they're putting increased focus now on youth development - Treaty and Harps would appear less probable unless either or both are in the Premier when it's established.

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I would have had UCD higher on the list. A reply a pages back was dismissive of UCD interest. The UCD first team is supposed to be more or less an U23 squad.
Limerick and Harps though First Division clubs at the time elected to take part in the A Championship. Just as Pat's and Sligo are bottom of my list for shooting down the A Championship, Treaty and Harps are top of my list for proactively taking part in the A Championship. (Treaty being the successors to Limerick.) Maybe the football landscape has changed that Pat's and Sligo are now progressive, and that Harps & Treaty are not in a place to be so progressive. If a third tier can be established, we'll then find out for sure, who is progressive and who is not?

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Originally Posted by culloty82

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung.

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We didn't compete when a First Division team and we're well on our way back there now, so I think it's unlikely.

Since the A Championship the budget has gone way down, so no outsiders or graduates really.

We have a 19s team and a couple of sides in the LSL; I don't see how a team in the third tier would benefit us tbh.

The players other clubs would put in it are the players we have in our first team

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

I can't see Treaty rushing to take part in a third tier. They seem quite cautious in their approach to things (and more power to them while they try and build foundations). Limerick FC are probably more likely to apply but I'm not sure the appetite is there with the POS Experience either.

As a disclaimer I'm about a million miles away from the pulse of what is happening with Limerick football these days. 🙂

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If Treaty United don't take part in a third tier, if it is formed, they'll be giving Limerick FC a platform to challenge them?

Example "National League":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Cork City U23
Derry City U23
Dundalk U23
Finn Harps U23
Shamrock Rovers U23
Treaty United U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23

If the third tier is properly branded like a "National League" or whatever is appropriate, there are people in university football circles who would want the prestige of winning it. They probably will have to be enticed a bit by the FAI however.
The Sigerson Cup and Fitzgibbon Cup can have patchy access to players. Universities in a "National League" should have a fully committed squad, if they were to join. I wouldn't be banking on the FAI to sufficiently entice them however.

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Originally Posted by legendz

If Treaty United don't take part in a third tier, if it is formed, they'll be giving Limerick FC a platform to challenge them?

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So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football? Even if that happened Treaty would be better off staying their course for the few years it took the wheels to come off again.

As far as your list of teams goes who specifically are the people in University football circles seeking the prestige you speak of? Also, genuine question, why are you capping UL/UCC etc at U-23? Why can't a hypotetical 25 year old post grad play for them?

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football? Even if that happened Treaty would be better off staying their course for the few years it took the wheels to come off again.

As far as your list of teams goes who specifically are the people in University football circles seeking the prestige you speak of? Also, genuine question, why are you capping UL/UCC etc at U-23? Why can't a hypotetical 25 year old post grad play for them?

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All fair questions and debatable.
If Treaty are intent in having good structures in place, they will see the benefit in an U23 team to bridge the gap from youth to senior. Treaty is in a good place to extend its reach to Clare and North Tipperary. The reference to Limerick FC is just my view of it.
The U23 teams I have listed would have at least five U23 outfield players. I include universities at U23 as they won't be in the youth leagues. Only first teams who are also in the youth leagues should have no age cap.
If UL for example wanted to operate without an age cap, possibly a merger with Limerick FC would be agreeable for both. Rugby has UL Bohemians. Football in a few years might have UL-Limerick FC?

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Originally Posted by legendz

Not entirely. It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

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Never mind the Summer, it's unusual for many of the feckers to stick around campus on a weekend during term time either. Apart from the international students, a large portion have always fecked off back to whatever arsehole village they're from in Carlow, Offaly etc to get their mammy to wash their clothes and feed them the same food they've always eaten, before they head out to the same bar in the village that they've always drank in to hang out with the same lads they always did when they were growing up. A baffling small-town Ireland mindset IMO, especially when you're leaving a major city full of things to do to instead hark back to the womb.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Never mind the Summer, it's unusual for many of the feckers to stick around campus on a weekend during term time either. Apart from the international students, a large portion have always fecked off back to whatever arsehole village they're from in Carlow, Offaly etc to get their mammy to wash their clothes and feed them the same food they've always eaten, before they head out to the same bar in the village that they've always drank in to hang out with the same lads they always did when they were growing up. A baffling small-town Ireland mindset IMO, especially when you're leaving a major city full of things to do to instead hark back to the womb.

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Tell me you're a city boy without telling me you're a city boy.

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football?

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Wasn't POS quietly kicked out of the LoI by the FAI?

I don't see them letting him back in in that case

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Wasn't POS quietly kicked out of the LoI by the FAI?

I don't see them letting him back in in that case

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I feel it's more of a standoff than that tbh. He still has a foot in with the underage leagues. Truthfully I think the FAI just want to outlast him.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Tell me you're a city boy without telling me you're a city boy.

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Tell me you went home to Donegal from university every weekend for your mammy to do your washing without telling me....:D

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Tell me you went home to Donegal from university every weekend for your mammy to do your washing without telling me....:D

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There wasn't a whole lot else to be doing in Athlone, to be fair. Some of us had to work :cool:

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

There wasn't a whole lot else to be doing in Athlone, to be fair. Some of us had to work :cool:

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Remember - Herding cattle isn't work. It's a calling.

Do many of the current LoI clubs have a good link to the local district league?
Ideally, accepting the reality is different, every district league region should have a club at national level. It should be the intention of the FAI to facilitate that as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by legendz

It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

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Oh, but it is. Where I work has been a ghost town since late May. The only signs of life are admin staff and management, the odd PhD student, a few muggins like myself and whatever groups have hired the use of our facilities. Our other campuses are also pretty empty.

One other reason university teams might not be a straightforward option - multi-campus TUs. Where would Munster TU play/train/draw their teams from - Cork or Tralee? Shannon - Athlone or Limerick? The mergers take about five years to roll out after the institutions are established, so putting a team into the LoI is way down the list of priorities. In time, maybe, with the right encouragement (and if it helps the university's strategy at an acceptable cost) but - and I hadn't though of this till now - is the more likely short-term effect going to be a reduction in the number of college teams? Will GMIT, Sligo and Letterkenny have to compete as Atlantic, or will they be allowed keep their 'local' campus team? Genuinely don't know.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

One other reason university teams might not be a straightforward option - multi-campus TUs. Where would Munster TU play/train/draw their teams from - Cork or Tralee? Shannon - Athlone or Limerick? The mergers take about five years to roll out after the institutions are established, so putting a team into the LoI is way down the list of priorities. In time, maybe, with the right encouragement (and if it helps the university's strategy at an acceptable cost) but - and I hadn't though of this till now - is the more likely short-term effect going to be a reduction in the number of college teams? Will GMIT, Sligo and Letterkenny have to compete as Atlantic, or will they be allowed keep their 'local' campus team? Genuinely don't know.

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If Munster TU did want to join, it could be based on the campus locations e.g. MTU Cork and MTU Tralee.
I had more in mind the larger universities e.g. UCC, UL and NUIG. Would universities be open to football scholarships? I imagine they would have to see some prestige in being part of a "National League". A reserve league wouldn't attract them. U23 teams, with 5 outfield U23, should help with clear messaging that such a league is a step up from U19 to senior level. Allowing first teams with pathway to promotion should help the profile of such a league.