Great result for Bohs.
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Great result for Bohs.
Very enjoyable night in the Aviva. It was great to be back there watching a match. It was a jovial carnival atmosphere before the match aswell without being over the top from what I witnessed. I’d imagine that Bohs will be in a bit of hot soup over the south stand and it could cost them another match in the Aviva.
Yep, an absolutely tremendous night, but I hope common sense prevails and the shenanigans in the South stand don't mess it up for us in the next round. It's been so fecking long since we've all been allowed to go to a match like that, few drinks in town, thousands of fans together, you'd forget what it's like.Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
But a brilliant performance and roll on the next round.
Looking forward to what's up next for the Irish teams.
Some of the bigger clubs have been drawn against each other in the Champions Path of the ECL. There will be some teams in round 3 which Rovers will be stronger than so hopefully the draw will be kinder this time around.
No one will be putting the house on Dundalk but they will be favorites for their tie and another home and away win would do wonders for the leagues co-efficient.
Bohs have a really good chance now to start building their European legacy now. Playing the second leg at home against a Luxembourg team is a proposition that Bohs will fancy. Really looking to that game now, hopefully it's in the Aviva again and they can get a bigger crowd again.
Would be savage to be looking forward to the third round with 3 Irish teams still in there.
Out of interest does anyone know what the tie breaker criteria is for teams with the same co-efficient? Dudelange and 2 other teams rank is 8.000 but only one of them can take the last place in the seeded side of the draw. The draw is done on Monday so Bohs could end up playing an unseeded team in round three should they manage to progress.
Probably the best performance I have seen fom Bohs... ever..
Outplayed Stjarnan But .In fairness to them, kept it clean, not a bad foul in the game..
Cracking atmosphere inside and outside the stadium.
Dawson Devoy wont be long with us after that, unfortunately.
I hope, for Bohs sake, that Dawson Devoy is tied to a decent contract.
After tonights results, League of Ireland rises a place to 46th, equal with 45th placed Finland, just behind Liechenstein, Georgia and Latvia. Couple more wins would make a big difference again.
Sligo played really badly (not that FH were any better really). Had they played as well as they can and still lost then I'd accept that it was indicative of our league not steadily improving. But any team can have a bad day at the office (or two).Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The problem with the LOI is that we don't operate in a vacuum. If you look at the Icelandic teams that played in Ireland today, they had international players on display. Stjarnan brought on a guy who's had multiple caps with Denmark. So whilst the LOI may be steadily improving, other leagues are also doing likewise - or improving much faster than we are.
Up until this century it used to be that European international football had a large pool of teams that were pretty poor. At various stages you would easily have included the likes of Iceland, Cyprus, Northern Ireland, Wales, Norway, Finland, Israel, Slovakia etc on that list. But so many previously crap countries are no so much better at the international game, such that the pool of genuinely crap international sides has shrunk to largely being just really small countries now.
The same dynamic has been happening with leagues too over the last 2 decades. Look at where Cyprus or Luxembourg are in terms of league coefficient versus only 10 or 15 years ago, for example. They're both above us in the rankings now (Cyprus by a country mile). Yet our clubs would've been confident facing any teams form those countries 20+ years ago.
So I genuinely think the LOI is slowly improving - especially from where we were in the years immediately after the end of our crazy era of financial excess a decade or so ago. But the problem is that lots of other leagues have also improved at the same time as us. And quite a few at a faster rate too. The lowest rung in club and international football is continually being raised standard-wise.
I wondered that myself. It was noticeable that the crowd in the rest of the stadium was rigidly following social distancing, sticking to their seats etc. Whereas the South Stand was bedlam.Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
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Originally Posted by D24Saint
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Originally Posted by Northsider
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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
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Originally Posted by Nesta99
Join the misery so lads, nothing to do with having some cop on of course!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Well congrats to Bohs who finally beat an Icelandic team at the 4th time of asking, albeit an ailing team who have 'freefallen' to down around the relegation zone of the Icelandic league, nevertheless a victory Bohs fans should be celebrating for days. Maybe even a hall of fame result. FH are/were in an even worse state than Stjarnan, but 2 weeks ago they re-hired Iceland's best coach and it looks like he managed to sort out just enough in the defence to beat Rovers. Them's the breaks and now Rovers take on the baton of shame from Bohs.
it's handy enough to have Iceland and Ireland in the same section, this time it allowed for a shared charter plane for the clubs of both countries.
If the experiment was to check for football fans losing the run of themselves and potential for covid cases increasing then I think it's fair to say the experiment was a successQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Probably the same crew that cost the club money every home game with flares.
But regressing relatively speaking is still regressing. I don't doubt, for example, that our teams of today would beat the teams of the 60s, even though the latter were able to get some great results in Europe. That doesn't diminish my point though. And I don't think there's even much there to say the LoI is steadily improving. It's certainly gone backwards in the past decade with the financial collapse.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Also, you can't talk about Sligo being a one-off - or even this year being a one-off. It's not. The UEFA rankings take a 5-year span into account and we're 46th (albeit that lower countries have a boost from playing preliminary rounds) In that time, we've only won one tie against a country currently ranked higher than our near record-low rating (Rovers' excellent win against Brann of Norway), if you count penalty shoot-out wins against Finland, Moldova and Latvia as draws. That's absolutely dreadful.
I think this is a bit selective though. Yes, Cyprus and Luxembourg have got money in their leagues now. But there's other leagues that are going the other way. The Baltics are a good example - Latvia and Lithuania have sides going backrupt regularly (Ekranes, Ventspils, Skonto, Daugava, Kaunas) despite being regular European qualifiers. The Lithuanian league is such a cluster**** is could only manage six teams last season. Yet they're still ahead of us in the rankings, and beat LoI sides three of the last four times we met.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Your point on Cyprus/Luxembourg is valid, but you can't make it without acknowledging the flip side. Otherwise you're just putting out the argument that suits your existing viewpoint.
I can't comment on how clubs are run off-field, but the suggestion is that things are much better run than before - that's improvement. The players physically both fitness and strength has vastly improved even in the last 5+ years - that's improvement. The ability to match and play football with teams ranked higher has improved - thats improvement. Lasting the course for 90 minutes and not conceding 2 or 3 goals in the last 15 minutes - thats improvement.
I think if you are to compare results, as co-effs do then you're right stu there is little improvement, and like inflation, if the LOI teams dont improve at the same rate as their European counterparts then yes it is regressing, but theres many more factors involved than just the points. A good comparison would be the mean results, compare against similar ranked opposition from previous years and the actual scores. I think it would be much closer. A nice project there for you stu.
From when I started watching there has been massive improvement, theres no question of that, regardless of the shift of other teams, but the same old failings of lapses of concentration or just silly goals being given away has not changed - it just occurs less often, especially as the same teams compete more often in Europe. And that cliche you referred to about managers saying getting a feel for Europe and the opposition would suggest there is truth in it.
I think it's a suggestion, not an improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Has fitness really "vastly improved" in the past five years? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
How many ties can you show me from the last 20 years where an LoI side conceded 2/3 in the last 15 minutes?
You'll forgive me for holding your judgement slightly in suspicion given how little LoI you watch :)
Couldnt that be part of the reason they have beaten us 3 from 4, over stretching their finances and gaining advantage, financial doping of which the LoI knows nothing about!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Talking in the context of Europe not domestically, definitely conceding 2 in the last 15(perhaps 20 is more accurate) minutes was something you'd see quite often 10 years ago. If you show me a page with all results ill happily do it, but I have no interest in googling results for the rest of the morning!
Knock yourself out.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I think that sort of stuff largely died out in the early 00s to be honest.
Our biggest recent Euro defeat was Derry's 10-2 hammering against Midtylland, and the Danes scored once in the last 20 minutes across both ties.
Ya that wont work, you'd need the times of goals. Dundalk conceded 2 late ones versus Qarabag, only a couple of seasons ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But just scrawling through that you can see that results appear to have narrower gaps in the more recent years per club.
Btw that doesnt include last years, any other years missing? Bohs last result there is 2013.
You'd probably have to look at how many time the same club conceded 2 in the last 20 mins in non European games and maybe even how many time the opposition scored 2 last 20mins in other European fixtures:o. But Id agree that there is no shortage of memories of the late capitulation, maybe its perception too, as they are the ones that hurt, stand out so memory bias kicks in.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It would be interesting to see if this was more an outlier in more recent years compared to 20 yrs ago, if that trend is constant then it sways things toward Stu's thinking that things havent improved much - conditions different same similar outcomes.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
This'll make it a lot easier to search for the times Paul. It's your claim; I'm not doing your research for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
"Results appear to have narrower gaps in the more recent years per club" is a particularly useless conclusion to be honest! Which results? Is it actually true or are you just picking up on a few outliers? Are we playing easier teams these days? Cork Hibs' results have certainly improved since the days of losing 6-0 and 7-1 to Valencia and Gladbach for example, but that doesn't really mean much :)
Last year's is the only one missing AFAIK.
So one LOI side (Sligo) lost (on agg) 3-1 to an Icelandic side, and the other (Bohs) beat an Icelandic side 4-1. Sligo beat Bohs 4-0 recently, so hard to make senses of any of that.
Sligo's result is an embarrassment, but I was lucky enough to be at The Aviva last night, and the game was hugely enjoyable. One point I'd make about Irish sides is that they can now keep possession much better that they used to. Bohs put together some beautiful passing moves last night. This would have been unthinkable when I started watching Irish football in the 70s. Teams would be lucky to string three passes together. Without doubt LOI football has improved a lot - but so has the game across other European leagues.
It'll be interesting to see how Bohs do in the next round.
I am happy to acknowledge that LoI football is without doubt better than in the 70s :)
Not at all a dig but can you just imagine the soul searching in Lux football when UCD knocked out Dudelange, then 3 years later they beat Legia and Cluj to get to EL groups? Not always straight lines in football where there is any sense to be made of it.
If a 2nd tier college team from a low ranked league beat one of our sides I think people would be calling for the league to be wound up!!
I don't need to imagine it - I read it in the Luxembourg papers at the time!
But that's why I'm taking a 5-year spread of results. It takes the focus away from individual bad results (eg Sligo last night) and looks at the wider picture (ie we've beaten one team from a country higher than 46th in the past five years, taking shoot-outs as draws)
No he doesnt but I do lolQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Fair play, what an impossibly hard job!!!!:oQuote:
Originally Posted by ltfc_2004
I am not so sure they hurt as much as the ones that were the conceding/missing for lapses due to physical and mental exhaustion, like red bull against bohs a silly header back pass i think, or robinson missing a sitter against kiev away. Well missing can't necessarily be put down to physical exhaustion, but the 2 goals in the last quarter conceded never bothered so much for me as I put it down to "more of the same crap". I am pretty sure on here if you go back 10 years I asked the question why couldnt they at least be as physically fit as their european counterparts, the rebuke was part time etc etc and gaa players were a good comparison and LOI were fitter, that argument ceased as the dubs and the likes trained pretty much like a professional outfit and as the loi teams became fitter and stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Perceptive memories is one perhaps but I have it in my mind teams battling well in the 00s and then conceding a couple in relatively quick concession on 65-70+ minutes, but as you say that good well be just perception and revisionism
Outside the last 5 years bar individual exceptional results, we had some very bleak years, losing to much lower ranked leagues of that time like Wales and Malta. To get through a round even by taking games to penalties 0-0 on agg could be progress depending on the context. I dont intend seem awkward, as I may purely be basing things on perception/selective memory so am open to changing that perception. I still feel that the league has improved overall, the backs to the wall, hanging on in the hope of nicking a result from a long ball or going to penos is less often if at all, a tactic these days. Losses have less often been humiliating and more often clubs seem to have a fighting chance. Irrespective of league ranking or a club having a sustained period of qualifying for Europe, Dundalk have attained the highest co-efficient and seeding Irish clubs have ever had. Its at least partially result based and a position that nobody would really have really believed it would happen, maybe if Rovers had really kicked on with the first aearance in group stages. For me anyway, Dundalk bias aside, it is an indication of progress. We talk a lot more about missed opportunities now, self implosion etc. rather than cringing at cricket score aggregate results. But then as someone alluded to above maybe thats general trend across Europe with less heavy defeats happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't think that's entirely accurate. In the last five years, we have one win against a side from a country not in the bottom ten (Brann). In the five years before that there were wins over sides from Belarus, Israel (in the group stage, but technically Dundalk won on away goals!), Bosnia, Luxembourg (four times), Lithuania and the North. And the previous five years were better again - wins against sides from Kazakhstan, Serbia, Israel, Luxembourg (again!), Latvia (twice), Russia and Sweden. (There were fewer second chances then too).
Yeah, there'll always be a hammering or two. But our list of scalps is growing steadily less impressive. "Progress" cannot mean 46th in the UEFA rankings.
Croatia too! Maybe the time period should be extended lol. Maybe the recent regression is correlated to Dundalk FC's regression:p. I watch Connahs Quay game in Armenia, and it was a real throw back where they just dug the trenches and were obviously playing for penos considering the 1st leg was 2-2. They nearly did it, conceding with 5 or 6 mins left in ET. Its noth something I have seen from a LoI team for a long time. Maybe we have to establish what progress is, league ranking is the real gauge for sure, but there are so many other considerations too. I dont think there was a huge gap between Slovan and Rovers for example, possibly being more positive and focused in the 1st leg would have made a difference. Sligo were more than capable of getting past FH - Im still not really sure how it went so badly wrong. Cork were too negative in Europe under JC which I think cost them but yet picked up some good results too. Margins are fine between leagues of lower end rankings which could change with one solid year of results. Lux being an example. When Dundalk knock Roma out of the PO round we can revisit things:D. The gaffes seemed to be reducing but the main difference between LoI sides and Euro opposition is a lack of clinical ability and making chances count. It feels like we need 5 good chances to score yet we'd be punished by one attack - ability or mentality? Probably a mix but an issue that can be bridged imo.
I think that's still trying to believe your viewpoint rather than rationally analysing it though.
Slovan are in pre-season and still beat Rovers - albeit by a narrow score. Cork's last good result in Europe was the Hacken win, which is six years ago now.Sligo "were more than capable" of beating FH...but they didn't. We've had lots of times we've been more than capable of beating someone, but silly mistakes cost us, including lax finishing, and that's what defines poor teams.
Luxembourg did more than just put a few results together - they've gotten a lot of finance into the league (corporate sponsorship I presume, as their crowds aren't great) and the top teams are decent full-time outfits now. It helps they can tap up players from Belgium/France/Germany/Holland of course, but the likes of Dudelange will probably have a bigger budget than Bohs, or most LoI sides. (Maybe 2-2.5mill all told) So Luxembourg's league improving isn't just "one solid year of results" - it's a sea change in their clubs' funding which we haven't mirrored.
Welcome TonyQuote:
Originally Posted by ltfc_2004
One piece of ration analysis that could be pointed to is last year we had a mid table team qualify for the Europa league group stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't necessarily think that the standard of the teams has improved massively, for example I'd guess that LOI clubs are all still all 0.5 or 1 star on FIFA. But I do think we can say that the standard in club has improved at least a little bit in the last 5 years, even if it is only just due to the underage structures which are in place. It mightn't last forever but things at least appears to be a bit more stable and clubs more professional. Don't ask for proof on this claim because it's just an impression I have.
Would just also like to point out that the Luxembourg champions lost 7-2 on aggregate to the Gibraltar champions in the UCL this week and both of their teams in the ECL Q1 got knocked out. So Luxembourg can't exactly be a million miles ahead of us at this point.
I think that there's really not that much difference in quality between the bottom 20 league in Europe and a couple of results one way or the other can see a league jump way up the co-efficient table. I think a metric a better metric for deciding if the league is going forward or not is the average attendance. If more people are actually going to games the clubs are obviously doing some things right.
To be fair UCD knocking them out was one of the most poxiest wins you will ever see in European football , it was something like 30 shots to 3 to Dudelange in the game at Luxembourg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
From the bottom 30 or so leagues only Europe you are just splitting hairs, I also think you need to remember that just because a league is higher on the co efficient doesn’t necessarily mean the league is that strong, like with the SPL being 14th, that’s largely down to only 2 teams doing well in Europe but if you look at the other SPL teams they tend to struggle no less than a lot of middle of the road teams in qualifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
Vert true. It was the sort of game you could write a book about.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
I still want up to Dublin and my Bohs mate came up with the goods another mate had a spare ticket going as his mrs couldnt attend so I met him at Ballsbridge hotel and gave him the twenty quid. I was high up in the stand and had a great view of the shenigans behind the goals.
Bohs thoroughly deserved their win last night they were immense. Delighted for them.
I think any Dundalk fan will acknowledge they had the luckiest run of draws in the history of European football. The easiest side in each draw; Andorra, Moldova and the Faroes to get to the groups. I think that can safely be classed as a freak result in fairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
We'll find out next week I guess! That was an extraordinary result alright (even if the Gibraltar side were the seeded team, and indeed were seeded above Rovers!) Racing Luxembourg lost home and away to an Icelandic team too.Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
But returning a bit to topic, Bohs v Dudelange will be an interesting one; certainly the trend in recent meetings has been that the Luxembourg league has been steadily closing on us and then passing us out. A straightforward win in 2014, an away goals win with ten men in 2015, an away goals win against ten men in 2016, and then Cork got knocked there in 2019. Dudelange missed out on Europe altogether last year, so that might have hit their budget given the previous year they were in the group stages.
Dundalk's troubles aside, you'd be disappointed if they didn't go through against the Estonians. Rovers obviously have the bye, but the third round looks like it could be manageable, although the final qualifying round looks quite tough.