Derry City applying for Grant Aid

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"Linfield and Glentoran contribute to Belfast's culture and so should be entitled to grants from the Northern Irish government, and they also contribute to the sporting culture on this island, and so should be entitled to grants from the Republic"

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Not really. Linfield and Glentoran don't contribute enough to the sporting culture of the Republic to be entitled to grants. Personally I think Derry's main source should be from the FAI as they are part of this league, but they do contribute greatly to sporting life in Derry/Londonderry and so should be recieving grants from the North to maintain this

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No "spinning" about it. I merely took your exact analogy and applied it in another context, to demonstrate a flaw in it. Namely, would you be happy with a club in the Republic receiving Dublin government funding for a stadium, then moving to play in another jurisdiction? Simple question, really (at least, easier than E=MC2!)

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You're trying to portray this as a case of 'take the money and run'. If this hypothetical club in the Republic was pushed out of the League of Ireland on unreasonable and sectarian grounds, I think you'd find there'd be considerable sympathy for them...

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It is not my "latest" objection. If you read my posts, I have objected since the start to one club in Ireland considering itself eligible for funding from two Governments and two Associations, whilst every other club has to make do with one each. I am concerned for a level playing field - particularly since DCFC's Chairman "let the cat out of the bag" when revealing that a major (chief?) concern is that without double funding, DCFC may not be able to stay f-t professional.

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1) Please explain why City's unique footballing position should not also be reflected by a unique funding situatioon - where each side pays less than it otherwise would if the club was 100% involved in their jurisdiction, but the sum-total is the same ? Surely each side of the border benefits from this ?

2) If you're so concerend to see a nlevel playing field in Irish football, can you confirm your support for DCFc to be exempt form the VAT charges that are levied upon entrance fees to sporting events in the north, given that these charges aren't levied in the south and City is therefore at a 17.5% revenue disadvantage for every person it gets through its gates ?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

A ratio of 2/3 to 1/3 seems reasonable to me. Therefore, if DCFC can raise £5m, let Dublin match it with £10m. Or, if Dublin won't do that, let DCFC reapply to join the IL and apply for £10m to Stormont. Whichever way, as a UK taxpayer, I object to IL clubs being deprived of up to £5m for a club which plays outside the UK, when IL clubs cannot benefit correspondingly from Dublin money.

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This is the nub of your arguement - you just don't like City playing in the LOI and want Stormont to with-hold their financial toys as a result. If City wants those toys, it has to go crawling back to your tin-pot league to do so.

The reality is that City's unique situation will actually cost Nortehrn Irish football LESS ! If we were in the IL we'd be looking for ALL the money form the north. This is how blinkered you are in your poedantry - you'd actually be happier to see UK tax-payers faced with a bigger burden from Derry City FC, ratehr than have it shared north and south, just so your autistic-inability to grasp the club's unique position can be satisfied. Anyone where else in the world, tax-payers would be happy to see their burden reduced for the same benefit. Sadly, not in Ealing Green-land...

Irish football is not as clean cut as two sides of the border and two leagues operating insplendid isolation. A unique sporting situation exists, and that opens up unique funding situations. You may not like it, but them's the facts...

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Originally Posted by osarusan

But I'd like you to add a third paragraph, one which outlines with the same clarity why Derry are entitled to money from the ROI government (apart from the kind of funding we've seen given to eL clubs in the past, with which this figure of 5 million is not comparable) for their regeneration project. None of the reasons from paragraph 2 are applicable.

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3.1) The Irish government has established a host of precedents for funding projects that are 100% based-and-operating-in the North. DCFC is based in the north, but affiliated to a southern sporting body and operating in the south as well as the north. So if the road to Aughnacloy is worthy of ROI funding, DCFC is doubly so. I woudl throw this question back to you - in the context of Police Schools, roads, the Orange Order etc receiving southern government funding - why should Derry City not receive it when it is an important member of a Republic of Ireland sporting body ? :confused:

3.2) We are applying to the FAI for funding - not teh government. You may want to tie yourself in notes about where that money came form to get to the FAI, but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.

sorry to go off topic here, but can someone answer my question in relation to this:

""Derry City is the second city in Northern Ireland. We play VAT on our gate receipts like every other sporting body up here. "

Do gaelic teams also pay VAT on tickets sold to matches in the North?! IF they do then do they get any funding from the governmen/council in Northern Ireland?!

Finally, how could it cost £15m to build a stadium of only 8000 capacity?! surely double that for that cost.....plus shouldn't derry go for at least 10k...

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

3.1) but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.

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This is an important point that every one does need to note - Derry are member sof the FAI and fully entitled to apply for cash and SEPARATELY they do pay taxes in the north and hence can apply for sports grants.

For me this thread is a bit of an non issue once the blinkered reactions are removed and the real meat of the matter is reasonably reviewed.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

1) Derry City are arguably entitled to two sets of funding, unique in comparison to other clubs on the island, because they are in a unique posiiton on the island. The reason why peopke keep mentioning what happened to City in the Irish League isn't to rake up old grievances, as you assert, but to explain to you how we ended-up in such a unique position against out will. But still you don't get it...

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It is certainly "arguable", it's just that I am not persuaded by their argument, for the reasons I've outlined. And of course DCFC are in a "unique" situation - I've never argued otherwise. But you are conflating cause and effect. What is unique is that they were unable to play in their domestic league. Consequently, that was recognised by their being allowed to play in another League, outside their domestic jurisdiction.
They are not entitled (imo) to take this a step further and demand funding from both jurisdictions, since they don't actually play in both.
In the end, if they want Stormont funding, they should play in the IL. But if they play in the LOI, and Dublin is prepared to fund them, then good for them both.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

1) 2) As a sports club, a community institution and a tax-paying business within Northern Ireland we are operfectly entitled to seek funding from the NI authorities. We woulsn't be entitled to Irish League funding - but we're not looking for that. Again I reiterate - you may not like us seekign Stormnont money, but give me one good reaosn why a sporting body based in the north and paying tax in the north should not be entitled to funding in the north ??

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One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

1)
I can see no good reason why 10 pages later you are still wheeling out spurious arguements that have been tackled numerous times since Page 1. This only leads me to conclude that you just fundamentally don't like Derry City getting money from anyone or anything in NI - because we have the temerity to play outside the Irish league, even though we had no choice - and all you are doing is scrabbling around in the dark looking for excuses/reasons to make your position on this appear vaguely reasonable. They don't....

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If you insist on concluding that I "just fundamentally don't like Derry City getting money from anyone or anything in NI - because we have the temerity to play outside the Irish league, even though we had no choice", in the face of what I have actually posted, then I can only assume your "DCFC goggles" make you unable even to comprehend my position, or that of anyone who dares to disagree with the club and its supporters.

Loyalty to a cause is often an admirable trait, but not when it is blind.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Not really. Linfield and Glentoran don't contribute enough to the sporting culture of the Republic to be entitled to grants. Personally I think Derry's main source should be from the FAI as they are part of this league, but they do contribute greatly to sporting life in Derry/Londonderry and so should be recieving grants from the North to maintain this

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Tbh, Jebus, I wasn't being entirely serious when I made my point about LFC and the Glens!

However, whilst I personally feel that DCFC's Football funding might/should come from the IFA, but their Government funding from Dublin, I accept the argument for it being the other way round.
But what I think would give them an unfair advantage over every other club on the island would be if they were uniquely eligible for funding from two Governments and even two Associations.
There have been a number of arguments about DCFC's "unique"position and i have accepted that this is fairly recognised by their being allowed to apply to the LOI when they did.
But a hell of a sight has changed since then, including that there is no longer a bar to their returning to the IL. If they did, I'd say "Great! Welcome back" and further, I would support them 100% in any apllication for funding they made from my taxes (i.e. from Stormont).
But whilst they prefer to remain in ther LOI, then they should bear the consequences i.e. Dublin funding only, particularly since a major reason for their preferring the LOI is that it is much more nearly full-time.
Why should part-time clubs in NI be deprived of money to assist DCFC in remaining f-t in another League entirely, when there is no longer any bar to their rejoining the IL?

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

makes sense putting in 5m now to regenerate the area rather than when we have a united ireland and it will cost us a lot more in the future due to inflation etc

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:D Indeed:D

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...any Stormont money which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.

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Don't you feel it gives IL clubs good motivation and justification to apply for funding? "Here, Mr. Poots, you've given a couple of million to DCFC, how's about throwing some our way?"

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One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

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So, even though they pay taxes to "Stormont" and "Stormont" alone, they are not eligible to receive grants/funding/whatever you want to call it from "Stormont"?!

Good luck to Derry hope they get the money,Im shocked at the partionist mindset of some people on this forum.

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Originally Posted by inchicore_saint

Good luck to Derry hope they get the money,Im shocked at the partionist mindset of some people on this forum.

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I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

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haha good comeback, even if ye don't really mean it ;)

What's wrong with saying they should get sports grants from the FAI and regeneration grants from the Northern government? Both Irish sport and Derry/Londonderry as a community would benefit from Derry City FC improving their lot.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

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While I'm shocked you won't advance the debate and explain why that is so. :)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

3.2) We are applying to the FAI for funding - not teh government. You may want to tie yourself in notes about where that money came form to get to the FAI, but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.

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This fact - that Derry are looking from money from the FAI, and not the government, is something not mentioned in the original BBC report, or, to the best of my knowledge, in this thread so far (although of course it may have slipped past me). Now of course FAI money sometimes means Government money, but no, I'm not going to tie myself in knots about that, Derry are entitled to FAI funding like any other club under the jurisdiction of the FAI, and I'm not concerned how that money came to the FAI.

If that's true, then my next question is - Are Derry asking the FAI to help fund a regeneration project? Or is the FAI money earmarked specifically for stadium development?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

You're trying to portray this as a case of 'take the money and run'. If this hypothetical club in the Republic was pushed out of the League of Ireland on unreasonable and sectarian grounds, I think you'd find there'd be considerable sympathy for them...

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And I have been entirely sympathetic to DCFC when formerly deprived of any choice. But times have changed and there is no longer any reasonable barrier to DCFC reapplying to join the IL. Or how long are you going to continue making a case by reference to past grievances which no longer exist?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

1) Please explain why City's unique footballing position should not also be reflected by a unique funding situatioon - where each side pays less than it otherwise would if the club was 100% involved in their jurisdiction, but the sum-total is the same ? Surely each side of the border benefits from this ?

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DCFC's unique situation (unable to play in their home jurisdiction) was recognised by their being permitted to play in the League of another jurisdiction - and quite rightly, too.
However, there is no justification in doubly "compensating" them by allowing them to be eligible for funding by two Govts and two Assoc'ns, unlike every other club on the island (esp when they are no longer being deprived of their choice of which League they play in)
And I cannot accept your "both sides of the border benefits" argument. If Dublin is prepared to grant-aid a club from NI, then good for them. But I do not accept that Stormont should additionally grant-aid a club which now chooses to play outside NI, especially since this inevitably deprives all those NI clubs which still play in the IL.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

2) If you're so concerend to see a nlevel playing field in Irish football, can you confirm your support for DCFc to be exempt form the VAT charges that are levied upon entrance fees to sporting events in the north, given that these charges aren't levied in the south and City is therefore at a 17.5% revenue disadvantage for every person it gets through its gates ?

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DCFC are not a charitable organisation and nobody is forcing them to play in NI. Just as nobody is forcing their players to reside in NI, where they would be liable to UK tax, Nat.Insurance etc.
It is DCFC's choice to continue to be located in NI, just like it is their choice to play in the LOI. There is nothing to stop them relocating a couple of miles over the border and building a new stadium there (with 100% Dublin funding, for all it matters to me).
After all the GAA, for example, holds Ulster Finals in Clones or Croke, thereby avoiding VAT, even when both finalists are from "The Occupied Six"
Lots of companies and other commercial concerns are located in one jurisdiction for tax reasons etc, but carry out the bulk of their operations in another jurisdiction. And in doing so, they are obliged to comply with the local fiscal regime, just like all their competitors.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

This is the nub of your arguement - you just don't like City playing in the LOI and want Stormont to with-hold their financial toys as a result. If City wants those toys, it has to go crawling back to your tin-pot league to do so.

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Which is it? If I hate DCFC so much, why would I want them anywhere about the place? :confused:
Just as I have deplored the circumstances of DCFC's exit from the IL, now that circumstances have changed so much for the better, of course I would prefer DCFC to return to the IL. Why wouldn't I?
However, if they prefer to play in another League in another jurisdiction, then good for them. I just don't see why the NI Government should grant-aid them, esp when this would significantly result in their staying full-time, when NI clubs are struggling to remain even part-time.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The reality is that City's unique situation will actually cost Nortehrn Irish football LESS ! If we were in the IL we'd be looking for ALL the money form the north. This is how blinkered you are in your poedantry - you'd actually be happier to see UK tax-payers faced with a bigger burden from Derry City FC, ratehr than have it shared north and south, just so your autistic-inability to grasp the club's unique position can be satisfied. Anyone where else in the world, tax-payers would be happy to see their burden reduced for the same benefit. Sadly, not in Ealing Green-land...

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If DCFC were to return to the IL and present a case for funding which was so superior to every other club that it accounted for all of the existing Stormont budget for football, then my reaction could only be "Good For Them!", since that is precisely how it should work imo.
And if the other clubs in NI should respond and produce equally good schemes of their own, then additional funding should be sought from Stormont, in recognition.
But if we didn't achieve that additional funding, I wouldn't dream of applying to Dublin for it (or e.g. Paris or Berlin, for that matter)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Irish football is not as clean cut as two sides of the border and two leagues operating insplendid isolation. A unique sporting situation exists, and that opens up unique funding situations. You may not like it, but them's the facts...

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That is your interpretation of the facts; I beg to differ.

P.S. I think you'll find the correct spelling is "pedantry" ;)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

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This paragraph destroys any other valid argument you have put forward.

Why should we be entitled to IFA funding? We are a member but do not participate in any IFA senior soccer, and do not contribute much money to the IFA bar our small membership fees.

However, we do contribute to Stormont. Why should we get money from a body we don't contribute to, but not from one which we pay our taxes to?

Since when has being a member of the IL been a pre-requisite to recieving grants? Should the GAA teams all join up as well?

Your argument is a mess.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Don't you feel it gives IL clubs good motivation and justification to apply for funding? "Here, Mr. Poots, you've given a couple of million to DCFC, how's about throwing some our way?"

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Since I am worried thaty Poots's reply will be: "There's none left!" Remember, the IFA had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get £8m for the whole of NI football, after a five (six?) year process.

(Btw, I am not defending the unambitious and unimaginative stance of many IL clubs, who don't deserve a brass farthing of anyones money. But that's for another thread)

On the whole funding meeting -

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Monday 28 April 2008
Brandywell Properties have released a short statement following their presentation in Stormont today.

Brandywell Properties today took their case for funding to Stormont to present their plans to political representatives of the North West Area.

The group are seeking to gain a united and focused effort to secure the £5 million required from the Northern Ireland assembly to help make the proposal a reality. The total cost of the plan is estimated to be £15 million and the group are seeking £5 million from each of the 2 governments together with £5 million of private funding

Speaking after the meeting a spokesperson for Brandywell Properties said"

"We are delighted at the reception we have received from the MLAs and MPs from the Foyle, East Derry and West Tyrone constituencies today at Stormont.

We presented our plans around the stadium development and the wider regeneration benefits for the Brandywell area and the North West as a whole. We are extremely happy to have 100 per cent support from those representatives who attended the meeting or those who passed on apologies for not attending.

We are assured of their continuing support to bring our proposals to a successful conclusion."

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From the Derry City FC website.