UEFA Euro 2024 Qualifying Group B

Lads we’re talking about arguably the two best sides in Europe. France are, in my opinion, clearly the best side in Europe. Both sides only lost on penalties to Argentina. Netherlands are among maybe 5 teams who are contenders for the second best team in Europe (Spain, Germany, Netherlands, England, Italy)

I imagine most are like me. We have the logical part of our brain which says we’d do very well to pick up any points against them and the passionate fan part which whispers “we could turn these lads over with a bit of luck”.

People have said (maybe just boom) that the French squad are in disarray. Who’s retired? Benzema, Lloris, Varane, Mandanda. Benzema didn’t make the WC due to injury. France were better with Konate than with Varane at the World Cup. And Lloris is long past his sell by date. Meanwhile they could have Pogba, Kante, Kimpembe, Nkunku and Fofana back from injury. If anything they’re likely to have a better squad than they had at the World Cup.

As for looking to that win against Germany? I was there that day. I was also in the stadium when we lost 6-1 in 2012. The away leg was a 3-0 loss. There’s been more bad days against elite opposition that good ones

Here’s an incomplete list of some of France’s elite players:

1. Pavard - Bayern
2. Kounde - Barcelona
3. Konate - Liverpool
4. Upamecano - Bayern
5. L Hernandez - Bayern
6. T Hernandez - AC Milan
7. Saliba - Arsenal
8. Mendy - Real Madrid
9. Tchoumani - Real Madrid
10. Kante - Chelsea
11. Pogba - Juve
12. Griezmann - Atleti
13. Mbappe - PSG
14. Coman - Bayern
15. Dembele - Bayern
16. Giroud - Milan
17. Nkunku - Leipzig

I tried to be fairly limited, excluding the likes of W Fofana, Rabiot, Thuram, Kamara, Digne, Kimpembe, Kolo Muani, Y Fofana. You could even argue that everyone on that second list is better than our best players

Meanwhile the Dutch have:

1. Van Dijk - Liverpool
2. Timber - Ajax
3. Ake - Man City
4. De Vrij - Inter
5. Botman - Newcastle
6. Malacia - United
7. De Jong - Barcelona
8. Wijnaldum - Roma
9. Gakpo - Liverpool
10. Depay - Atleti
11. Bergweijn - Arsenal
12. Weghorst - United
13. Malen - Dortmund

Anyway - it’ll be fun but it’s pretty daunting and you couldn’t have mapped a worse draw

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Define coming of age. State how that list of players had or has come of age from mid 2020 to 2022. You could say that 2022 saw a “coming of age” for Collins, O’Shea, Obafemi, Molumby and Ogbene. That’s late enough in the Kenny era. Cullen was 2021. The Norwich duo and Kelleher are still in the largely unproven category and Knight has had a rocky 6-12 months and seems to divide opinion here. It’s a massive amount of just potential, still, and a very high ceiling hopefully - with the exception of Cullen, Collins and O’Shea. There’s clearly a good dose of talent that you can see in the squad there now. Kenny’s hand is definitely and definitively stronger now than at any time previously in his tenure. Expectations have rightly shifted significantly in the last half season as a result.



Has it changed? You think we’re not aiming to (and some fans don’t even want to) qualify? That’s bizarre. Everything after that is made up dramatics and doesn’t warrant a real response. Certainly nothing on here or a prevailing sentiment on social media to back that up. Maybe a couple of weirdos you know.



It’s not impossible. Anything is possible. Sure didn’t I say in my post that there’s the expectation to take some points off the 4 games? But, while anything is possible, you have to be realistic too. Thinking we’ll take 4 points at home and 2 away against France and Holland and setting that as a benchmark expectation is possible but is it realistic? Is it fair to Kenny and the players? Personally I think you’re realistically expecting 4-5 points off those 4 games and anything more has to be seen as a bonus. I’d be looking for 6 (minimum 4) off Greece and obviously unblemished against Gibraltar. Probably not enough to qualify but not a bad outcome in a group containing the World Cup runner-up and a quarter finalist from a couple months before, like. Go to France or Holland and tell their fans how you think it’ll go, what you’re expecting, and they’ll just smile and pat you on your little pixie head.



Do you have a source for that quote? I’d like to see it in context before I can really offer a proper opinion/response.

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Kenny had basically the same squad as McCarthy and then a breakthrough of young players to use. Like when McCarthy brought in Connolly, Kenny had the huge list of breakthroughs to bring into the squad and team. So he started with a strong squad that came very close to qualification for the euros automatically and then had the long list of players I mentioned there for him to add to it. Original squad + some of the best emerging talent for a long time = A better squad than McCarthy's. It's not complicated.

It's changed according to Kenny, he thinks we shouldn't be thinking about coming ahead of teams like Portugal and Serbia anyway. His thoughts have been repeated by Kenny supporters. Even some questioned why we should be expecting to beat Luxembourg!

Your next paragraph is laughable. We're not being fair to poor Stephen Kenny, how dare anyone expect us to be competitive. Other countries would laugh at us even thinking that.

Why do you need the full quote? Isn't that enough? Kenny is trying to convince us that it's not his fault, it's anyone who has the audacity to think we could even think of coming ahead of Serbia and Portugal who's the problem. And the full quote makes it worse, look at the state of this, he's not living in reality:

"If you take the four matches in this campaign. In the games against Serbia and Portugal away, they are probably two of the best performances in the last decade away from home in the last decade, without question.

Against Luxembourg at home we didn't play well at all. It was a poor performance, but we still didn't deserve to lose the game based on the chances. The other night we dominated and should have won well.

Don't forget, the spine of this team was ripped out. Darren Randolph was injured for a good period of time, Richard Keogh finished, Glenn Whelan is at the latter end of his career and was a brilliant player, David McGoldrick retired. The whole spine was taken out of the team.

We have take the best young players we have seen for a long, long time and blooded a lot of players. You're not always going to get a level of consistency with that.

Our performances in this campaign, bar the Luxembourg game which we were very disappointed with, have been good overall.

With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?

We have a plan in place. I have taken the decision, right or wrong, that we would build this squad to be a really competitive competitive team to qualify for Germany 2024.

We didn't not try and win those games, we came very close against Serbia and Portugal away from home, scored the first goal and played brilliant football in both games. I have taken that decision...

I think there is real progress overall to be honest. That's the way I see it, that's the way my staff see it, and all the coaches see it.

There are a lot of people that don't see it. They say 'that's not your job to develop the game, your job is to win the next match'. That kind of nearsightedness doesn't create anything.

You might beat teams you should beat, but you can never beat the teams that you stride to beat. You're trying to build something that can be tangible over a period of time and that can be successful.

That's the way I see it."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

Lads we’re talking about arguably the two best sides in Europe. France are, in my opinion, clearly the best side in Europe. Both sides only lost on penalties to Argentina. Netherlands are among maybe 5 teams who are contenders for the second best team in Europe (Spain, Germany, Netherlands, England, Italy)

I imagine most are like me. We have the logical part of our brain which says we’d do very well to pick up any points against them and the passionate fan part which whispers “we could turn these lads over with a bit of luck”.

People have said (maybe just boom) that the French squad are in disarray. Who’s retired? Benzema, Lloris, Varane, Mandanda. Benzema didn’t make the WC due to injury. France were better with Konate than with Varane at the World Cup. And Lloris is long past his sell by date. Meanwhile they could have Pogba, Kante, Kimpembe, Nkunku and Fofana back from injury. If anything they’re likely to have a better squad than they had at the World Cup.

As for looking to that win against Germany? I was there that day. I was also in the stadium when we lost 6-1 in 2012. The away leg was a 3-0 loss. There’s been more bad days against elite opposition that good ones

Here’s an incomplete list of some of France’s elite players:

1. Pavard - Bayern
2. Kounde - Barcelona
3. Konate - Liverpool
4. Upamecano - Bayern
5. L Hernandez - Bayern
6. T Hernandez - AC Milan
7. Saliba - Arsenal
8. Mendy - Real Madrid
9. Tchoumani - Real Madrid
10. Kante - Chelsea
11. Pogba - Juve
12. Griezmann - Atleti
13. Mbappe - PSG
14. Coman - Bayern
15. Dembele - Bayern
16. Giroud - Milan
17. Nkunku - Leipzig

I tried to be fairly limited, excluding the likes of W Fofana, Rabiot, Thuram, Kamara, Digne, Kimpembe, Kolo Muani, Y Fofana. You could even argue that everyone on that second list is better than our best players

Meanwhile the Dutch have:

1. Van Dijk - Liverpool
2. Timber - Ajax
3. Ake - Man City
4. De Vrij - Inter
5. Botman - Newcastle
6. Malacia - United
7. De Jong - Barcelona
8. Wijnaldum - Roma
9. Gakpo - Liverpool
10. Depay - Atleti
11. Bergweijn - Arsenal
12. Weghorst - United
13. Malen - Dortmund

Anyway - it’ll be fun but it’s pretty daunting and you couldn’t have mapped a worse draw

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Get your excuses in early. Sure we should just skip this campaign. Can you list the teams the France 09 team played for?

And for Kenny supporters, you don't need a large number of players at big clubs to roll the excuses out. Remember Luxembourg? 'They have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that?' :D

BS you were asked for a link containing the quote from Stephen Kenny. Please provide it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

Get your excuses in early. Sure we should just skip this campaign. Can you list the teams the France 09 team played for?

And for Kenny supporters, you don't need a large number of players at big clubs to roll the excuses out. Remember Luxembourg? 'They have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that?' :D

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the argument was never ever "Luxembourg have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that' . The point people made was Luxembourg are not the same team as they were 10/15/20 years ago as proven by the fact they've a player in the cl. Now , thats not to excuse the turgid display we put on after the first 20 mins but a bit of context about things is key here. Yes, we should be beating luxembourg but they are hardly a Liechtenstein san marino or gibraltor. Ignoring the fact they have obviously improved along with our own regression is disingenuous and doesnt really aid any debate. We should be beating them but they are not a gimmie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

BS you were asked for a link containing the quote from Stephen Kenny. Please provide it

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No problem. I think a good few places reported it but this was taken from a typically pro Kenny article from media sources. Balls.ie in this case:

https://www.balls.ie/football/stephe...-future-483048

Yep there it is

"With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?"

That's our leader folks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

the argument was never ever "Luxembourg have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that' . The point people made was Luxembourg are not the same team as they were 10/15/20 years ago as proven by the fact they've a player in the cl. Now , thats not to excuse the turgid display we put on after the first 20 mins but a bit of context about things is key here. Yes, we should be beating luxembourg but they are hardly a Liechtenstein san marino or gibraltor. Ignoring the fact they have obviously improved along with our own regression is disingenuous and doesnt really aid any debate. We should be beating them but they are not a gimmie.

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That's amazing, especially that you used the word gimmie. I remember been told by a pro Kenny supporter prior to the Luxembourg game that it was unfair to criticise him for not gaining a victory up to that point because he has yet to play a 'gimmie'. I actually think it was on this forum. The poster stated that Luxembourg was his first gimmie. This despite already having played an awful Bulgaria side twice etc.

It's incredible how other teams get so much better when Kenny's Ireland are involved. France and Holland are now unstoppable superpowers. Serbia and Portugal, unbelievable sides. Luxembourg and Azerbaijan, they're getting close to being top tier sides. It's the Staunton effect, he was claiming San Marino were a side to be reckoned with after the 2-1.

Prior to Kenny this was never the case. Over a few campaigns, we should be coming ahead of Denmark, McCarthy was hounded after drawing away to Georgia. Kenny loses at home to Luxembourg, oh no, wait! The poor fella had a champions league player to come up against. Leave him be. It's absolutely ridiculous. You'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

Yep there it is

"With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?"

That's our leader folks!

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Absolute joke isn't it? He should have been ran out of the job for that quote alone. If Serbia and Portugal are out of our reach, surely he thinks the same about our upcoming group?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

Kenny had basically the same squad as McCarthy and then a breakthrough of young players to use. Like when McCarthy brought in Connolly, Kenny had the huge list of breakthroughs to bring into the squad and team. So he started with a strong squad that came very close to qualification for the euros automatically and then had the long list of players I mentioned there for him to add to it. Original squad + some of the best emerging talent for a long time = A better squad than McCarthy's. It's not complicated.

It's changed according to Kenny, he thinks we shouldn't be thinking about coming ahead of teams like Portugal and Serbia anyway. His thoughts have been repeated by Kenny supporters. Even some questioned why we should be expecting to beat Luxembourg!

Your next paragraph is laughable. We're not being fair to poor Stephen Kenny, how dare anyone expect us to be competitive. Other countries would laugh at us even thinking that.

Why do you need the full quote? Isn't that enough? Kenny is trying to convince us that it's not his fault, it's anyone who has the audacity to think we could even think of coming ahead of Serbia and Portugal who's the problem. And the full quote makes it worse, look at the state of this, he's not living in reality:

"If you take the four matches in this campaign. In the games against Serbia and Portugal away, they are probably two of the best performances in the last decade away from home in the last decade, without question.

Against Luxembourg at home we didn't play well at all. It was a poor performance, but we still didn't deserve to lose the game based on the chances. The other night we dominated and should have won well.

Don't forget, the spine of this team was ripped out. Darren Randolph was injured for a good period of time, Richard Keogh finished, Glenn Whelan is at the latter end of his career and was a brilliant player, David McGoldrick retired. The whole spine was taken out of the team.

We have take the best young players we have seen for a long, long time and blooded a lot of players. You're not always going to get a level of consistency with that.

Our performances in this campaign, bar the Luxembourg game which we were very disappointed with, have been good overall.

With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?

We have a plan in place. I have taken the decision, right or wrong, that we would build this squad to be a really competitive competitive team to qualify for Germany 2024.

We didn't not try and win those games, we came very close against Serbia and Portugal away from home, scored the first goal and played brilliant football in both games. I have taken that decision...

I think there is real progress overall to be honest. That's the way I see it, that's the way my staff see it, and all the coaches see it.

There are a lot of people that don't see it. They say 'that's not your job to develop the game, your job is to win the next match'. That kind of nearsightedness doesn't create anything.

You might beat teams you should beat, but you can never beat the teams that you stride to beat. You're trying to build something that can be tangible over a period of time and that can be successful.

That's the way I see it."

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I think it’s at the point where it’s just not worth engaging you any more on this. You just constantly dodge genuine questions, ignore main points in a section (or isolate and address unimportant comments) or shift the goalposts. It would be nice to have a sincere exchange with you at some point instead of whatever this is.

Anyway…

1. I asked you to give me your definition of “coming of age” and tell me how the players had come of age. Those are the words you used. Not broken through to the Irish squad. Kenny called them up and as he says in his quote ended up having to blood them to international football, in some cases competitive football. Go back and read my point. Many of those players are still unproven or being proven; with some having “come of age” at a decent club level in the last 6-12 month.

2. Get out of it. Your words and point were about someone (you’ve clarified it’s Kenny you were referring to) not aiming to win the group or qualify. Of course he was. The quote you are referencing to back up that is from a retrospective - not looking ahead. Of course, I provided a link to the quotes from when the draw was made. His words were “it has to be our ambition to qualify; that’s why we are here, to try and qualify for the World Cup.” Jd2793 took care of the Luxembourg point you were trying to make.

3. Nothing laughable except your expectation. It’s not going to happen. If someone turned around to you and the players (I referenced them too in the bit you were laughing at) and said “you have to go through France and Portugal unbeaten home and away otherwise you’re a failure and you haven’t even bothered” how would you take it? That’s what you’re saying. It’s - forgive me - mental. The question that was in there, really, was what’s really acceptable to you from a results and points perspective which would cause you to say “you know what, we did alright”. Ignore what can’t be controlled (other results), just the 8 games and 24 points we have to play for.

4. The quote in context is fine. As I mentioned above, it’s a retrospective and his comments are in the context of what went on before and during the group in terms of player availability. In that quote he’s saying “we don’t have a divine right to qualify or to win groups, we don’t do it often and we had a bad time with player availability”. I mean, the bit you isolated is a bit defensive sounding and doesn’t add anything to his main argument but it’s fine. But, most importantly, that quote doesn’t back up that he went into the group with the mentality you had been accusing him of - not aiming to qualify, tempering expectations in advance etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

That's amazing, especially that you used the word gimmie. I remember been told by a pro Kenny supporter prior to the Luxembourg game that it was unfair to criticise him for not gaining a victory up to that point because he has yet to play a 'gimmie'. I actually think it was on this forum. The poster stated that Luxembourg was his first gimmie. This despite already having played an awful Bulgaria side twice etc.

It's incredible how other teams get so much better when Kenny's Ireland are involved. France and Holland are now unstoppable superpowers. Serbia and Portugal, unbelievable sides. Luxembourg and Azerbaijan, they're getting close to being top tier sides. It's the Staunton effect, he was claiming San Marino were a side to be reckoned with after the 2-1.

Prior to Kenny this was never the case. Over a few campaigns, we should be coming ahead of Denmark, McCarthy was hounded after drawing away to Georgia. Kenny loses at home to Luxembourg, oh no, wait! The poor fella had a champions league player to come up against. Leave him be. It's absolutely ridiculous. You'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.

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yeah there was loads of moaning after georgia because we didnt even try to play, there were a lot of similarities in the home tie to kennys loss to lux. regardless of that fact, there are 14 places between these sides in the rankings (not a lot). kenny got untold flack for that Lux defeat, pretending he didnt is delusional. Its not my fault or anyone elses if people dont take into account that a lot of these smaller nations are a lot better now than 10/20 years ago. We should be beating georgia + luxembourg but nothing is a given. the narrative is different because georgia have been "hard to beat, tough place to go" for easily 10 years or more. Lux were the whipping boys for donkeys years getting tonked 6/7-0 10/20 years ago. Times change, its not our fault if you dont keep up

Balls.ieare a media source the same way nettles are a flower

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I think it’s at the point where it’s just not worth engaging you any more on this. You just constantly dodge genuine questions, ignore main points in a section (or isolate and address unimportant comments) or shift the goalposts. It would be nice to have a sincere exchange with you at some point instead of whatever this is.

Anyway…

1. I asked you to give me your definition of “coming of age” and tell me how the players had come of age. Those are the words you used. Not broken through to the Irish squad. Kenny called them up and as he says in his quote ended up having to blood them to international football, in some cases competitive football. Go back and read my point. Many of those players are still unproven or being proven; with some having “come of age” at a decent club level in the last 6-12 month.

2. Get out of it. Your words and point were about someone (you’ve clarified it’s Kenny you were referring to) not aiming to win the group or qualify. Of course he was. The quote you are referencing to back up that is from a retrospective - not looking ahead. Of course, I provided a link to the quotes from when the draw was made. His words were “it has to be our ambition to qualify; that’s why we are here, to try and qualify for the World Cup.” Jd2793 took care of the Luxembourg point you were trying to make.

3. Nothing laughable except your expectation. It’s not going to happen. If someone turned around to you and the players (I referenced them too in the bit you were laughing at) and said “you have to go through France and Portugal unbeaten home and away otherwise you’re a failure and you haven’t even bothered” how would you take it? That’s what you’re saying. It’s - forgive me - mental. The question that was in there, really, was what’s really acceptable to you from a results and points perspective which would cause you to say “you know what, we did alright”. Ignore what can’t be controlled (other results), just the 8 games and 24 points we have to play for.

4. The quote in context is fine. As I mentioned above, it’s a retrospective and his comments are in the context of what went on before and during the group in terms of player availability. In that quote he’s saying “we don’t have a divine right to qualify or to win groups, we don’t do it often and we had a bad time with player availability”. I mean, the bit you isolated is a bit defensive sounding and doesn’t add anything to his main argument but it’s fine. But, most importantly, that quote doesn’t back up that he went into the group with the mentality you had been accusing him of - not aiming to qualify, tempering expectations in advance etc.

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Well first of all we will have to remove the pretence that you're not firmly in the pro Kenny camp. I'll keep this short.

1. My post states what my definition is. Players making breakthroughs at their squad as they move into senior football. This happened under Kenny's reign. It's a simple equation showing that Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy.

2. He was obviously lying before the group. He didn't believe we could qualify and he lambasted anyone who thought we could. How are we meant to believe he thinks we'll qualify from the upcoming group?

3. I haven't said anything about what I expect. I've stated how we've always approached groups and how no matter who the opposition, we think we can qualify. That goes out the window with Kenny and his supporters though, that's what's laughable. The different standards for poor, unlucky Kenny.

4. The whole quote is an embarrassment. Not only the losers talk already pointed out, he tries to claim we put in great performances against Serbia and Portugal. We were destroyed in 3 of the 4 games against them. We didn't deserve to lose v Luxembourg, wrong. The spine ripped out of the team he says. Randolph 34 at the time, Keogh 35, Whelan 36 and McGoldrick 33. But then says he was building for 2024! This despite picking a very similar side to McCarthy up until the Luxembourg defeat. He changed the narrative then and his backers have bought into it. He then also stated that they had made progress. The gall of the man. Going from nearly qualifying to nearly coming bottom of a group is not progress. I don't know how anyone can defend his comments, well, I do. If they are hardcore Kennyites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

yeah there was loads of moaning after georgia because we didnt even try to play, there were a lot of similarities in the home tie to kennys loss to lux. regardless of that fact, there are 14 places between these sides in the rankings (not a lot). kenny got untold flack for that Lux defeat, pretending he didnt is delusional. Its not my fault or anyone elses if people dont take into account that a lot of these smaller nations are a lot better now than 10/20 years ago. We should be beating georgia + luxembourg but nothing is a given. the narrative is different because georgia have been "hard to beat, tough place to go" for easily 10 years or more. Lux were the whipping boys for donkeys years getting tonked 6/7-0 10/20 years ago. Times change, its not our fault if you dont keep up

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Oh yeah, standards changed in about the year 2020. Prior to that we were expected to qualify for tournaments or come close to qualification. If that didn't happen, the manager got sacked. Post 2020, when Kenny came on the scene, suddenly every opponent we played improved dramatically while our players went downhill fast. Kenny's supporters were still singing his name in the stands as they watched Luxembourg beat us. That tells you everything you need to know.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Balls.ieare a media source the same way nettles are a flower

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Yeah but they didn't make up the quotes.

There's a Mark Twain quote that comes into my head for some reason as I read through some of this. "Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

There's a Mark Twain quote that comes into my head for some reason as I read through some of this. "Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

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Who's the idiot, Sunshine? Spit it out.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

etc etc

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Grand. Fair enough. Just humour me a little longer.

Looking at everything (players, opposition, schedule and so on), what set of results from each game in the upcoming group would cause you to say “we’ve done well and I’m fairly satisfied”?

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

Yeah but they didn't make up the quotes.

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Please point out where I accused anyone of making up quotes

Hey Snapshot. How’s things? Why don’t you join the conversation when you have something to add? LOL.

War and Peace :D