Wales V Republic of Ireland - Sunday, 15th November 2020 - UEFA Nations League

I just don't see any progression under Kenny. We're no better now than we were in the first match when we scraped a draw with a godawful Bulgaria side.

I've got no idea what we're trying to do, and it's clear the players don't either. We knock it around at the back more - with players ill-suited to doing so - often dicing with death in the process when teams press us high. So while the all-important possession stats don't look too bad, we don't seem to have the first clue what to do in an attacking sense. There's absolutely no sense of purpose.

We don't get players into the box, we aren't playing off our number 9, usually Idah, who seems incapable of keeping hold of the ball anyway, there's no clever combination play, we aren't trying to get crosses in. And, perhaps most damningly, we don't look a threat from set-pieces - there's just no imagination or cuteness there; nothing that you look at and can see it's something that has obviously been worked at on the training ground. Which surely is something we should be doing on given our paucity of attacking options.

Can any Kenny supporter on here explain to me what our game plan is and how Kenny's much vaunted 'system' is conducive to our scoring goals and winning matches? Because I genuinely don't know. Certain posters go on about our lack of a quality finisher, but it's not as if we're exactly creating a plethora of chances. We could have Robbie in his prime playing up front and we'd still be struggling to score.

To compound matters still further, we've also lost our defensive solidity and much of our fighting spirit - once a given, even when we were lacking elsewhere - all to no discernible net gain.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if he was picking a load of kids who were improving and gaining valuable experience even if the results aren't quite there, but he's not. He's intent on picking players like Horgan, Hendrick, Hourihane, McClean and so on.

If we don't score, and win, at home against a desperately poor Bulgaria side I think the patience amongst a large body of supporters is going to reach breaking point.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

I just don't see any progression under Kenny. We're no better now than we were in the first match when we scraped a draw with a godawful Bulgaria side.



I've got no idea what we're trying to do, and it's clear the players don't either. We knock it around at the back more - with players ill-suited to doing so - often dicing with death in the process when teams press us high. So while the all-important possession stats don't look too bad, we don't seem to have the first clue what to do in an attacking sense. There's absolutely no sense of purpose.

We don't get players into the box, we aren't playing off our number 9, usually Idah, who seems incapable of keeping hold of the ball anyway, there's no clever combination play, we aren't trying to get crosses in. And, perhaps most damningly, we don't look a threat from set-pieces - there's just no imagination or cuteness there; nothing that you look at and can see it's something that has obviously been worked at on the training ground. Which surely is something we should be doing on given our paucity of attacking options.

Can any Kenny supporter on here explain to me what our game plan is and how Kenny's much vaunted 'system' is conducive to our scoring goals and winning matches? Because I genuinely don't know. Certain posters go on about our lack of a quality finisher, but it's not as if we're exactly creating a plethora of chances. We could have Robbie in his prime playing up front and we'd still be struggling to score.

To compound matters still further, we've also lost our defensive solidity and much of our fighting spirit - once a given, even when we were lacking elsewhere - all to no discernible net gain.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if he was picking a load of kids who were improving and gaining valuable experience even if the results aren't quite there, but he's not. He's intent on picking players like Horgan, Hendrick, Hourihane McClean and so on.

If we don't score, and win, at home against a desperately poor Bulgaria side I think the patience amongst a large body of supporters is going to reach breaking point.

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I agree, we can play expansive football and keep the defensive awareness and physical approach, otherwise we are in trouble, His numbers are low, this is a result-sport wise

Watching first half here. Don’t understand the hate for Horgan. Still looks like one of our best players so far. Ireland’s passing letting us down at times.
As I’ve said before, our passes often seem to go either side of the recipient than straight to feet which slows the pace of attack or counter-attack considerably.

Fair play to Wales though. Nice to see them doing well these days. They really have been the sleeping midgets of European football

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I think it was poor organisation, two of our guys went for their guy at the near post. Our defenders seemed to actually collide with each other - there maybe have been a foul, not sure

In the collision Duffy (I think) got a glance on it at the near post, effectively pushing it to the far post. A Welsh player then got his head on it and sent it back toward the center of the goal where Brookes bundled it in.

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I cant believe that a lot of people didnt talk about the foul in this goal, was a blatant foul , by that Cascarino type of player , he grabbed both defenders and pushed them to the floor, come on. It was W.W.E Raw!!!

This goal wouldnt happen to Argentina because our players would have comfronted the ref. James McCarthy is someone who confronts the refs all the time... It was a clear foul!!!

Then the Bale pass was good but Knight didnt follow his man, of course Randolph slipped, but it was Knight movement to cover his two teammates down..

Oshea was coming with a welsh guy so, it was Knight's flat foot, twice yesterdady. The kid is not ready yet for this system.

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Originally Posted by John83

I don't think there are many on here defending the results in that way any more. Those defending Kenny are pointing to retirements and injuries and the level of our opponents and suggesting that maybe we can't expect to be pushing England or even Wales for the moment. Changing the manager is not a magic bullet. Take Duffy and McClean out of the team, as many here are calling for, and you're left with a collection of players with 0 or 1 international goals ever. They're not going to magically start scoring because we revert to 442 and direct passing. No one "doesn't really mind losing games", but some people seem to think that with the right manager and formation, anything is possible. Is it, ****. ****e players, ****e results, barring the occasional miracle. Wales started today with a lad up front from Man Utd and another who just moved to Spurs from Real Madrid. Their other forward is 23, and has 15 caps in spite of injury problems. We had a 19 year old boy who has scored one league goal for Norwich; a limited player lining out for Stoke whose most recent accomplishment for us is getting sent off; and a lad who hasn't scored for Wycombe since he moved from Hibs, where he managed a goal every 11 games in the highly regarded Scottish Premiership. Idah and Horgan have scored a grand total of 0 goals at international level. The alternatives to them are not really any better. Our best forward was McGoldrick, who just retired. Before that, it was Walters, who retired. Before that, it was Keane, who retired. Long was in the mix throughout that period, but is past his best and was in any case unavailable. This is not championship manager. There is no bug where if you just get the striker to mark the goalkeeper you'll net a hatful of goals. There is more pain ahead, and the main difference getting rid of Kenny will do is change who incorrectly gets the bulk of the blame for that from the fans.

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Spot on.

The reality that the majority of the national team's fans won't admit though, is that they have contributed to this dearth of talent. We haven't developed players because we can't develop players because nobody cares about them until they want a ****-up trip for a tournament. You need a thriving grassroots and domestic league to attract and foster talent, particularly in a multi-sport country. It's a funnel and right now we aren't getting enough players in at the top and we are losing them all the way along due largely to relying on English clubs to develop them during their formative years. It's a completely broken system and we are seeing the results clearly now.

Luckily there are some greenshoots, with the national underage leagues and various clubs like Rovers, Pats, Derry etc all doing more to help keep players in Ireland where they can upskill without needing to move away from their families so young. There's a lot of good young coaches coming up now and we and we are seeing some good signs at u21 level already. Think where Troy Parrot might be now if he had sampled European football with a proper senior set up at Dundalk/Rovers/Bohs for the past season or so. Instead he is languishing in the reserves or being punted out on loan because he isn't ready for the level at Spurs. It all needs to be built on though and unfortunately that means putting up with this transition period. I'm not a fan of Kenny but he deserves more time and he will surely get it given the lack of finances at the FAI. It's going to be a rough enough road though and a lot of fans won't enjoy a minute of it.

Until the "best fans in the world" wake up and start paying in at the gates and taking an interest in the game outside of the few pints in the pub or the jolly up away for the weekend we will just be hoping for a Keane or 2 every decade to give us a few decent results. Sadly, the chances of that are getting worse and worse as other countries get better at developing their players and the English clubs can afford to cast bigger nets.

I have questions.... if it doesn't work with Kenny WTF do we do? Go back to Mick again? Admit we can never play football and hoof the ball until the end of days?

Its been a terrible start by him but the more I think about the mitigating factors like covid that have affected a lot of our games I'm still willing to stand behind him

The FAI are broke so we won't be going to the continent for a big name. I'd make Damien Duff the most likely bet.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

I have questions.... if it doesn't work with Kenny WTF do we do? Go back to Mick again? Admit we can never play football and hoof the ball until the end of days?

Its been a terrible start by him but the more I think about the mitigating factors like covid that have affected a lot of our games I'm still willing to stand behind him

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I keep the guy for 20 games at least, he got very insane today like a madman when he declared on live tv.... “I've no doubts that I will be a success"

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

The FAI are broke so we won't be going to the continent for a big name. I'd make Damien Duff the most likely bet.

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Neill Lennon will be

he earned his chance in 20 matches you can say, i critize him for the England game, maybe he wanted the exposure, we needed an easy game at home

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You haven't watched much international football so.

Remember Terry Phelan and Packie Bonner against Holland in 1994 for example?

Or Shay Given for much of Euro 2012?

It was a hospital pass; it was crap but it happens. There's no need for daft hyperbole over it though.

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We're Ireland, daft hyperbole is what we do. We don't just have a bad team, we have the worst team in the world. A performance isn't just bad, it's the worst performance in history. We don't just have corrupt politicians, we're the most corrupt country in the world, etc.

Some mad stuff here. With a seriously depleted team we lost a game of football away to a good team 1-0. We are losing key moments in games often through no fault of Kenny's: Hourihane's miss, Randolph's throw out and so on. Wales are on a good run of generally narrow wins. They're confident and in the habit of winning. We're the exact opposite.

I thought the midfield balance looked better last night, with Molumby and Hendrick industrious and Brady given the task of using the ball creatively which he did to some effect, but he's not the player he was. But I actually think our midfield looked functional and competitive for the first 60 minutes and we can't always say that. Idah was in and out, doing some things well but Wales generally found him easy to handle really. McClean and Horgan didn't do enough to support him I think, but at times his touch was poor too. I thought Collins immediately improved things in that position, getting among the Welsh CBs, showing for the ball and making it stick. Simple things like receiving a throw in. I know it's bit sad when things like that are among the highlights but that's how it is.

I found it almost funny how our worst ball user (Duffy) found himself with the ball at his feet so often. I'm beginning to think now that if Duffy isn't going to be dominant in either penalty box then we need to think about a better central defender in open play.

Last night we really suffered from lack of attacking impetus from full back. Doherty doesn't offer as much as Coleman as an orthodox RB and Stevens was missed. I can see why Kenny picked O'Shea - to keep things tight - but we offered no width on the left from deep, and McClean had no support. It's a key part of how we're supposed to play but it was lacking. Personally I'd have preferred Curtis over McClean and I'm a bit fed up with Kenny persisting with some of the unimaginative reliance on guys who too often disappoint. I can forgive him persisting with Idah as he needs the exposure even if I think it's depleting our threat. I think Manning would have been a better pick than O'Shea, for attacking width from full back.

But overall we looked more than OK until the changes and everything came a bit mixed up and random. I know Byrne's getting stick for his pass but he also shows that he can take the ball in a tight situation and still protect it and find a pass. Players take risks in injury time. It happens.

Overall I think SK has been dealt a terrible hand with injuries, COVID, retirement and so on. I think he has made some selection mistakes and in a way I'd almost prefer we were losing due to being very bold on the selection stakes. But I still think more than anything else we need a change of luck and have a full squad available over a period to get this transition properly taking shape. If in a few games time I'm still moaning about Hourihane and McClean being ineffective my patience will run out.

Agree with the Duffy comments. A good defender, but a poor footballer. Kenny has a hard decision to make here.

I thought Wales were the better team and deserved the win, so no complaints about the result.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Personally I'd have preferred Curtis over McClean and I'm a bit fed up with Kenny persisting with some of the unimaginative reliance on guys who too often disappoint. I can forgive him persisting with Idah as he needs the exposure even if I think it's depleting our threat. I think Manning would have been a better pick than O'Shea, for attacking width from full back.

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I've watched Curtis come through underage football in Derry and beyond. I personally believe he is a centre forward and more effective there. Played his best games with Derry as a CF, although not as much as he wanted due to more experienced players there at the time. He'd be much more of a nuisance than Idah and can hold the ball up, and bring others into play. Hardly a risk Stephen Kenny would take at this stage though!

I finally saw this Jack "pass" and sending off

Conor Hourihane does three of them a game, neither player is good enough

The sooner we more to 4-5-1 the sooner we "might stop" losing. 4-3-3 is not going to work, we can still play good football in a 4-5-1 and actually be in with a chance of not losing.

Action points after the Bulgaria game
Drop: Hourihane, Collins and Christe from the squad.
Get on a flight after lock down and get McGoldrick back on board for one more campaign, he is way too important to let go without a fight.
We also need a bit of luck re Troy staying fit, staying away from the mafia and starting to score for Milwall

In international football you have to choose a playing style that suits the players you have. You can't decide on a style and try to shoehorn players into it. Ireland need to play 352, we've plenty of centre halfs, Doherty and Stevens have shown in the Premier League that they can play effectively as wing backs. Get 2 up top, rather than leaving 1 player completely isolated from the rest of the team. Not every ball would have to go down the wings, but it would give us an extra dimension.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

In international football you have to choose a playing style that suits the players you have. You can't decide on a style and try to shoehorn players into it. Ireland need to play 352, we've plenty of centre halfs, Doherty and Stevens have shown in the Premier League that they can play effectively as wing backs. Get 2 up top, rather than leaving 1 player completely isolated from the rest of the team. Not every ball would have to go down the wings, but it would give us an extra dimension.

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I wouldn't disagree at all.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

In international football you have to choose a playing style that suits the players you have. You can't decide on a style and try to shoehorn players into it. Ireland need to play 352, we've plenty of centre halfs, Doherty and Stevens have shown in the Premier League that they can play effectively as wing backs. Get 2 up top, rather than leaving 1 player completely isolated from the rest of the team. Not every ball would have to go down the wings, but it would give us an extra dimension.

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Agree completely, and 352 (or 532) is a very versatile formation. You only really need one no-nonsense center-back and if the other two are a little bit suspect then the excess numbers can mitigate it to an extent. Granted if you have 2-3 excellent defenders then it's even better, but we don't have that luxury at the moment. You basically need one pure out and out central defender, two guys with pace (and ideally good delivery) as wing backs. I think we have this. Doherty could be an excellent wing back, as you say Stevens could do a job at wing back or even at a push McClean could be another wing back (not ideal but has enough pace). Duffy could operate as the central center-back with ideally Clarke next to him and then one other. I think Hendrick would be a good defensively minded midfielder (ignoring the suspension) as he has enough movement, can mop-up & mark and his ball rotation is fine. I'd go with Brady as the attacking midfielder, he is a bit of a risk taker but the formation offers layers of protection if he gives the ball away. Up front I'd go with Long for his experience and willingness to close down defenders and drag opposition players out of position, and then one other.

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Originally Posted by Bielsa´s irish

That Kieffer Moore is a TonY Cascarino...Fouled both our center backs. Doherty couldnt beat Bale was a merit on Bale....But number 17 omg!! Follow your man!

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I thought Doc should have protected his space better. Could have taken a big step back and made Bale come through the back of him, probably drawing a foul.

I've watched the goal back a few times, possibly because I hate myself. When Williams gets the ball, he's facing O'Shea, who shows him out wide. Moore is in front of Long, who's beside Duffy on the edge of the area,with Doherty the other side of the D, and Bale is offscreen. just before Williams crosses, you can see Doherty turn his head, and sees Bale standing just off screen, but he has been drawn in beside Duffy, who's already too close to Long - both centre halves are now marking Moore. Knight is about two yards behind Brooks, who hasn't made it into the box yet.
When the cross comes in, both Duffy and Long go for it, but only Duffy makes contact, but also collides with Long, and knocks him out of it for a second. Moore Knight is now in front of Brooks, between him and the ball. Bale jumps over the reversing Doherty, and knocks the ball back over Knight, who can't reach the looped ball. To his credit, Duffy is back on his feet and almost gets across the goal in time to clear Brooks' header.
There's less than ten seconds between Williams getting the ball and Brooks scoring.

So who's at fault? Both centre halves are close together, and it's not clear which player was marking Moore, Duffy didn't call it was his ball in the air, Doherty didn't close down the obvious threat in Bale, and Knight let Brooks run into the box, but did get into the correct position to block a pass.

Could be all of them, or none of them

see below from 2:18