Rule 42 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Right . . . I'll put it in human terms . . . your parents have a fine big house that has done ye all very well for decades. Mammy and Daddy decide to do up the house and say that they don't mind if you continue to live there when the work is done.
You are big enough and ugly enough to stand on your own two feet, but instead of heading off and getting a mortgage like the rest of your mates and building your own place, you never will because Mammy and Daddy will have you back.
Meanwhile, all your pals have moved on in life and have places of their own. You're happy to sit in Mammy and Daddy's place waiting for them to peg it, but the difference with this story is that in a family you'd get the house. The FAIreland lot don't even own a kettle at Lansdowne Rd.
(Apologies if you live with your parents Silvio) :D

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Not quite a true analogy. Aren't the FAI putting up money for the re-development. Not sure how much, and what the final arangement will be, but it's something.


Anyway, "Spanner in the Works Alert" - Bertie still wants to push for abbotstown. So if LR is never re-developed, where does that leave the motion? Null and void?



Also, I agree with Superhoop. While it's a great descision, I would sooner go to Cardiff than be held to ransom.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

It is not all cut and dried yet.

Assuming some of the planning issues around CP can be solved, not least of which are the issues relating to the residents and the problems relating to midweek fixtures (lack of parking and direct transport links), there are other huge commercial issues to be finalised, much of which will depend on how much the GAA will charge to hire out CP.

There has been talk of £1m euro per game. If the FAI and IRFU get a better deal than that abroad, and there is talk that the Millenium Stadium would be available for less than half that figure, then they will take it, especially the FAI who are cash strapped at the moment.

The issue you have mentioned regularly about loss to the Irish/Dublin economy if games were played abroad is not one for either the FAI or IRFU. it is strictly a matter for the Govt. If the postion arose where there was extra cost to the FAI or IRFU by using CP over what they would pay if they went abroad, then unless the Govt. was prepared to meet that extra cost, it would be commercial madness for either association to use CP, especially as there are likely to be a few games for each code where they will struggle to get 40000/50000 attendance, a number that will have to be achieved to pay the CP 'rent'.

Finally, yesterday's congress was quite clear that GAA fixtures would always get priority at CP. As far as soccer is concerned, there is always a international date on the week of or the week before the All-Ireland hurling final in Sept. This year for example, we play France at home 4 days before the Hurling Final and we play Israel at home the day before there is a Leinster Football double header scheduled for CP. The ideal surface for hurling/GAA football is not the same as that for playing soccer. Brian Kerr is reported to be concerned about the playing surface of CP and its suitability for soccer.

Personally I would have no problem with there being 6/8 football internationals being played in Cardiff or City of Manchester while Lansdowne is being redeveloped.

Not cut and dried by a long way!

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Agreed it is not cut and dried.

The GAA will still be able to charge a premium on the rent as the F.A.I. could not be sure of filling Old Trafford or even Anfield. They will sellout Croke Park no problem.

The real losers if home football and rugby games went to Britain would the greater Dublin economy. The government cannot allow this to happen. The F.A.I. cannot be seen to move abroad and also still expect government funding for Lansdowne.

As for fixtures well it will reduce our negotiating power but we can control our own destiny here. Croke Park is effectively closed for 8 motnhs of the eyar anyway so plenty of scope here to play games.

We do owe a lot of away friendlies anyway. This would have been forseen years ago. Croke Park is not viable for a home friendly v Canada.

No ideas re the surface not being suitable for football however the GAA will need to sort out the surface for their own games.

I'd have no problem going to Liverpool or Manchester (Cardiff is a great stadium but very difficult to get to) for games either but I would have a problem with the revenue and jobs lost to this economy.

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Originally Posted by pete

Lets hope the FAI only have to suffer the indignity of using Croke Park for as few games as possible.

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It will tak at least 2 years to build Lansdowne Road, Pete, so I'd say you can include an entire qualifying campaign in that.

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Originally Posted by Glapots

I really really think UEFA should be asked to make an exception for Ireland and let Hill 16 be used as a terrace.

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I don't think it would be unreasonable to make at least some of Hill 16 available to school children.
The're less likely to create a safety or security concern of the type UEFA/FIFA associate with terracing.

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There is no way I'd "rather go to Cardiff". We will be a joke in Europe if we can't host matches on our own soil.

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well said that man.

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I don't think it would be unreasonable to make at least some of Hill 16 available to school children.

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i think the point he was making, was for atmosphere alone. so dumping a load of school children in there, nullifies that point.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Agreed it is not cut and dried.
We do owe a lot of away friendlies anyway. This would have been forseen years ago. Croke Park is not viable for a home friendly v Canada.

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I think you're giving the FAI too much credit there ;) - they make more money from home friendlies and Brian Kerr seems to be a fan of them so that why they play them.

As for friendlies at Croker, I'd imagine there will have to be some sort of attendance/fee relationship between the GAA/FAI - if you look at friendlies in recent years, only the big teams (Brazil/Czech Rep) filled Lansdowne and that was on the back of encouraging competitive results... taking Scotland/Canada/USA/China to Croker for a fee based on full house (or almost full house) attendances wouldn't make alot of sense...

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

There is no way I'd "rather go to Cardiff". We will be a joke in Europe if we can't host matches on our own soil.
Some people here have no pride whatsoever. Big day out in Cardiff, yawn.
Have ye no pride in Ireland? I admire the GAA for what they have achieved and I applaud their courageous decision at the weekend. They didn't have to do it, but they did.
Time to start eating big dollops of humble pie lads. Or alternatively, go and book your Sea-Lynx tickets to Fishguard and spend your money in the Welsh economy. :mad:
Apologies for being so passionate about my country.

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Paddy, I would love to go see Ireland play in CP as much as I would hate to go abroad for a home match. All I was saying was, if the GAA charge 4 or 5 times the rent of Cardiff, then business-wise, it would be silly not to consider the options.
The FAI have to be seen to hold some of the cards, or else the GAA can charge what they like.

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Originally Posted by roboyle

I think you're giving the FAI too much credit there ;) - they make more money from home friendlies and Brian Kerr seems to be a fan of them so that why they play them.

As for friendlies at Croker, I'd imagine there will have to be some sort of attendance/fee relationship between the GAA/FAI - if you look at friendlies in recent years, only the big teams (Brazil/Czech Rep) filled Lansdowne and that was on the back of encouraging competitive results... taking Scotland/Canada/USA/China to Croker for a fee based on full house (or almost full house) attendances wouldn't make alot of sense...

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Credit where it is due - we do owe quite a few friendlies - Denmark and I think a few more. Away games can be lucrative too with the match guarantee we command being quite high. We would also bring a decent travelling support.

Croke Park like all large stadia would require a significant attendance to make a game viable. I think the figure is around 35,000. We currently get good crowds because our friendlies are tied into block bookings. Now we could easily sellout a home qualifying campaign with block bookings but tieing in a number of friendlies would make this much more difficult. If our number 1 seed is a Sweden or Czech Republic as opposed to an England or Germany then the block bookings become much less attractive.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Credit where it is due - we do owe quite a few friendlies - Denmark and I think a few more. Away games can be lucrative too with the match guarantee we command being quite high. We would also bring a decent travelling support.

Croke Park like all large stadia would require a significant attendance to make a game viable. I think the figure is around 35,000. We currently get good crowds because our friendlies are tied into block bookings. Now we could easily sellout a home qualifying campaign with block bookings but tieing in a number of friendlies would make this much more difficult. If our number 1 seed is a Sweden or Czech Republic as opposed to an England or Germany then the block bookings become much less attractive.

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I dont think attendances would be a problem in Croke Park - given the length of time that we would be using it and the amount of fixtures likely to happen I can see the use of Croke park being novelty enough for people to get off their ar$es and go, not as likely to get soaked to the bone in Croker either.

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Originally Posted by totalfootball

According to today's Independent, Cardiff charges an average of around 28% of gate receipts for the use of its stadium and a full house at CP would generate about 5 million in gate receipts for soccer or rugby. So 28% of 5 million is 1.4 million euros. There is no chance whatsoever of the GAA charging 4 or 5 times the rent of Cardiff.

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I have heard a lot of figures thrown about over the last couple of days. One of them being a €500,000 a match offer from Cardiff. I based my 4 or 5 times on this.
As I said before, I don't want to see them play out of the country, but from a purely business view, the FAI are right not to 'commit' to CP before a price has been negotiated.

I see in the papers today Bertie is trying to keep his Abbotstown dream alive, what is he thinking-nobody wants that option. Who wants a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Its all well and good if you have a city with excellent public transport but can you imagine the problems of 60,000 people trying to get to and from Abbotstown? Landsdown and Croke Park are in fantastic locations close to the city centre and I think it would a real shame and atmosphere drain if international games had to move as far out as Abbotstown.

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Originally Posted by Don Vito

I see in the papers today Bertie is trying to keep his Abbotstown dream alive, what is he thinking-nobody wants that option. Who wants a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Its all well and good if you have a city with excellent public transport but can you imagine the problems of 60,000 people trying to get to and from Abbotstown? Landsdown and Croke Park are in fantastic locations close to the city centre and I think it would a real shame and atmosphere drain if international games had to move as far out as Abbotstown.

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i want it out in abbotstown (not every one lives in Dublin you know :D :D )it would cut out a lot of time getting from cork or limerick , plus you would nt have the problems with the ridiculous traffic and parking in dublin .

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Originally Posted by noby

One of them being a €500,000 a match offer from Cardiff.

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The FAI currently pay something in the region of €250,000 per game for Lansdowne Road. It would be insane to pay 10 times that figure to the GAA for only double the capacity.
It would mean that we'd be paying a minimum of €50 for a ticket to each game.

While I too rejoice, there are somethings that need to be considered:

The general asking price being bandied about is 2 million a game (the FAI currently pay 200K to the IRFU for the use of Lansdowne). Lets say the FAI currently make 1.4 million a game (35.000 fans x 40 Euros a tick).

If we get say 70k at Croker at Euro 40 a ticket = 2.8 million but this time minus the GAA's huge cut. What this means is that we the fans, who are rejoicing, are going to have to pay double the amount per ticket to make it a viable proposition for the FAI.

It will therefore all come down to economics whether we play in Croker or elsewhere. John Brennan, sports editor from some tabloid, said on Gerry Ryan this am that the FAI will have to pay whatever the GAA asks. I disagree. They can only pay what they can afford, bearing in mind that this is the only source of revenue for Irish soccer.

It is therefore a double edged sword. God help the rugby punters -they already pay an arm and a leg for their tickets (80 euros).

And now Bertie is back tracking on Lansdowne. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

And now Bertie is back tracking on Lansdowne. Sigh.

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Can you elaborate on this please?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

While I too rejoice, there are somethings that need to be considered:

The general asking price being bandied about is 2 million a game (the FAI currently pay 200K to the IRFU for the use of Lansdowne). Lets say the FAI currently make 1.4 million a game (35.000 fans x 40 Euros a tick).

If we get say 70k at Croker at Euro 40 a ticket = 2.8 million but this time minus the GAA's huge cut. What this means is that we the fans, who are rejoicing, are going to have to pay double the amount per ticket to make it a viable proposition for the FAI.

It will therefore all come down to economics whether we play in Croker or elsewhere. John Brennan, sports editor from some tabloid, said on Gerry Ryan this am that the FAI will have to pay whatever the GAA asks. I disagree. They can only pay what they can afford, bearing in mind that this is the only source of revenue for Irish soccer.

It is therefore a double edged sword. God help the rugby punters -they already pay an arm and a leg for their tickets (80 euros).

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TBF, if we had to travel to England to see the team play it would cost a lot more than €70. :)

As far as the government is concerned the redevelopment of LR is a done deal. It's what has been approved at Cabinet. Bertie was severely embarrased at having to back down regarding the National Stadium at Abbotstown. There is no way he's going to put himself in that position again. IT would be a PR disaster. The PD's would never agree to it anyway.

On the issue of Croke Park it's great that the GAA have decided to make it available but I don't think the FAI will choose it if it doesn't make financial sense for them. I could see Bertie making some additional grants available to the GAA or the FAI (or both) in order for the finances to make sense for both parties to have the games played in CP. They government will not want the bad PR that would be generated around the time of the next election of the games being played in the UK.

The FAI should pay the same amount for Croker as for Lansdowne - 250k but maybe abit extra as the costs are higher - say 400k. They should keep their 'normal' profit that they would make for a game at Lansdowne.

The difference, possibly 1m will then go towards clearing the GAA debts of 36m but this money must go via the Govt. by way of a grant.

Everyones a winner
Apres moi la deluge.

It's a bit early to second-guess what haggling will go on between the FAI and the GAA over the next year or two and what fees will be asked/offered. I think the statement on the FAI's website here is about right in tone and content. Given that there won't be matches at Croke Park until the other side of 2006, the negotiations will be drawn out and given the parties involved, details will seep out into the media.
Ultimately I think a deal will be struck which benefits both organisations and things will settle down but I'd say there will be a few arguments between then and now to keep us 'entertained' in the mean time! :rolleyes:

How long is lansdown likely to be closed for does anyone know? One Year? two maybe? How does that compare with Wembly, a much smaller project i would have thought.

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Originally Posted by totalfootball

The FAI should of course try to get the best deal possible, but the decision on whether or not to use CP or play the 'home' games in Britain should definitely not be made on economics alone. The FAI is going to receive a large chunk of taxpayers money to redevelop Lansdowne, so they have no right to then just turn around and go off to Britain. Wouldn't surprise me though if that is what they did.

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Hmmm, not sure the FAI is getting taxpayers money to develop Lansdowne which is owned by the IRFU !! The FAI will benefit by using a redeveloped Lansdowne but it is owned by the IRFU and there will probably be a greater charge for using it.