Trump

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Created out of thin air? If that is so, why have we been reading about upsurge in crime in Sweden in the English newspapers for two years now.

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Going out on a limb here, but maybe international politics is a bit more complex than the English papers make out?

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Originally Posted by SkStu

It is difficult to find the proof you require, Geysir, since the Swedish government stopped tracking the nationality/ethnicity of criminals back in, I think, 2010.

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I did not ask for proof, I asked for evidence for the claim which you are attempting to provide a rational context for, that the recent flow of emigration and refugees in the last 2 years into Sweden is responsible for an alleged rise in serious crimes in Sweden.

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This data gap makes anecdote/observation more important and I have already tried to provide non partisan sources to reasonably portray whether or not there are issues. I also linked to Tim Pool who is over there and I will be following his journey to satisfy my own curiosity and desire for information. Gatestone Institute has a list of a number of serious crimes committed by refugees and immigrants in Sweden too but I didn't bother posting that as, even though it seems factual, it is too right wing a source for the many on here who agree with open border policies.

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Anecdote is evidence but it is the lowest form of evidence and following the journey of some self appointed expert with a camera is supposed some sort of substitution for decades of methodical and educated research into compiling statistics and researching reasons for crime?
I also read about the grenade attacks in Malmo. "Between January-August 2015, Malmö experienced 31 grenade attacks, which resulted in no deaths and minor injuries to a few individuals, that police attributed to conflicts between organized crime elements. Police made a concerted effort to stop grenade attacks, and none have been reported since then."
Sourced from an overview of crime in Sweden by the Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC) a US state department.

Crime stats in Sweden can be found here Bra
There are generations of a huge variety of immigrants settled in Sweden and the researched reasons for levels and type of crime and criminal types are detailed and meticulously compiled and are not much different than those existing in other countries.

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With regards to the first paragraph of your post, I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make but I do note that you took a dig at my intelligence and tried to cast me as hating Muslims. Thanks for that. Sound.

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As long as you persist in your attempt to provide a rational context for the claims made by race hate groups, violent neo-nazis and Trump, that the recent flow of emigration and refugees in the last 2 years into Sweden is responsible for an alleged rise in serious crimes in Sweden, I will continue to challenge.
And when you reply in such a flippant, dismissive and nonsensical manner as you did, then yes I will mock your attempt.

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Another interesting update from Tim Pool.

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You are persisting to use this guy.
With that level of intelligence, one could extrapolate that the recent flow of Italian immigrants to the USA are responsible for the outbreaks of violence between Italian American crime gangs. or for that matter, recent immigrants (legal and illegal) from Ireland are a contributing factor to the criminal deeds of Boston Irish gangs.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...0/73717421.jpg

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You certainly are.

More Fake News from the Frumpanzees.

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

You certainly are.

More Fake News from the Frumpanzees.

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I was just trying to be light hearted.

Fair enough, will take it back!

But this moron, is generally no laughing matter.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I did not ask for proof, I asked for evidence for the claim which you are attempting to provide a rational context for, that the recent flow of emigration and refugees in the last 2 years into Sweden is responsible for an alleged rise in serious crimes in Sweden.


Anecdote is evidence but it is the lowest form of evidence and following the journey of some self appointed expert with a camera is supposed some sort of substitution for decades of methodical and educated research into compiling statistics and researching reasons for crime?
I also read about the grenade attacks in Malmo. "Between January-August 2015, Malmö experienced 31 grenade attacks, which resulted in no deaths and minor injuries to a few individuals, that police attributed to conflicts between organized crime elements. Police made a concerted effort to stop grenade attacks, and none have been reported since then."
Sourced from an overview of crime in Sweden by the Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC) a US state department.

Crime stats in Sweden can be found here Bra
There are generations of a huge variety of immigrants settled in Sweden and the researched reasons for levels and type of crime and criminal types are detailed and meticulously compiled and are not much different than those existing in other countries.


As long as you persist in your attempt to provide a rational context for the claims made by race hate groups, violent neo-nazis and Trump, that the recent flow of emigration and refugees in the last 2 years into Sweden is responsible for an alleged rise in serious crimes in Sweden, I will continue to challenge.
And when you reply in such a flippant, dismissive and nonsensical manner as you did, then yes I will mock your attempt.


You are persisting to use this guy.
With that level of intelligence, one could extrapolate that the recent flow of Italian immigrants to the USA are responsible for the outbreaks of violence between Italian American crime gangs. or for that matter, recent immigrants (legal and illegal) from Ireland are a contributing factor to the criminal deeds of Boston Irish gangs.

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Well I'm not going to flog a dead horse here. You have it cased, the data is inscrutable and any attempt to hear from the people themselves is irrelevant.

Just one thing, Tim Pool quite clearly states he is the furthest thing from an expert and is going to Sweden and beyond to see where does the truth lie. He has made no conclusions. Usually independent investigative journalism is something that we would have celebrated not so long ago but you are calling for us all to accept, without question, the data that the Swedish Government provides. I hope you are not as naive in your own life. Data, the subsets for which they changed, despite your proclaimed "decades of methodical and educated research into compiling statistics and researching reasons for crime". It would appear that you are the self appointed expert on Swedish crime and the quality of data gathering and analysis.

All bow before the all knowing Geysir for fear he "mocks" you.

Are you really claiming that anecdotal evidence in a YouTube video should be taken as seriously as extensive data collected by a national government over several years? How should the Swedish government make its case then?

I'm not trying to mock you either, but videos like that linked aren't all that useful in determining whether a country has a crime problem or not. To paraphrase a documentary I saw recently, it's like looking at the night sky through a straw.

Look lads, I am loathe to continue this conversation as it clear how each side feels and I am not inclined to or equipped to present a convincing case on what crime is like in Sweden. What is beyond doubt is that Sweden takes their reporting very seriously and a lot of information is readily available. However, the only reason I presented a video (not as evidence by the way - the videos make no conclusion or imply any outcome, they're just straightforward interviews with citizens and elected officials who give their personal experiences - good, bad, indifferent) is because the very question that we are discussing here is almost impossible to answer as the most important data set is absent from the reporting that is available.

From a Washington Post piece that combats Trumps loose remarks, the following is stated:

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What’s more, the Swedish police do not collect information on the ethnicity, religion, or race of perpetrators or victims of crime, which means there’s no evidence for claims that Muslim immigrants are committing crimes in record numbers. Nor is there any evidence to support the claim that Swedish authorities are manipulating the statistics, as the producer of the video [stu - the Horowitz video] alleges.

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So, long story short, we are all in a bit of an information vacuum when it comes to the answer to the question. The video only serves to add a first person perspective to the conversation that is carried out by someone with little to no skin in the game apart from doing his bit as an investigative journalist. I don't present the video to come to conclusions or "prove my point", just to learn more and satisfy my own curiosity and maybe peak the curiosity of others on here. I have no real problem if people decide to accept the data provided by the Swedish Government (who do have a lot at stake in this policy shift). That's fine too. I don't think the case is as black and white as some posters here would like to assert but, whatever, I would just like to have a grown up debate about the issues and not get called flippant, nonsensical, stupid or implied as racist.

By the way, I agree that Trumps remarks were ill-advised and, generally, inaccurate and unsubstantiated when it comes to "last night in Sweden". I do not accept that this means that there is no issue to be discussed.

I will leave it there on this issue unless I get baited successfully again. :)

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Well I'm not going to flog a dead horse here. You have it cased, the data is inscrutable and any attempt to hear from the people themselves is irrelevant.

Just one thing, Tim Pool quite clearly states he is the furthest thing from an expert and is going to Sweden and beyond to see where does the truth lie. He has made no conclusions. Usually independent investigative journalism is something that we would have celebrated not so long ago but you are calling for us all to accept, without question, the data that the Swedish Government provides. I hope you are not as naive in your own life. Data, the subsets for which they changed, despite your proclaimed "decades of methodical and educated research into compiling statistics and researching reasons for crime". It would appear that you are the self appointed expert on Swedish crime and the quality of data gathering and analysis.

All bow before the all knowing Geysir for fear he "mocks" you.

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If you are suggesting he is indepedent, it is more arguable he is not - he is not in Sweden at his own expense, although he stated he was planning to travel to Sweden regardless..... I am finding his adventures and the persons he has chosen to interview as quite curious. He has certainly succeeded in finding outspoken individuals on the subject on immigration.

'Trump’s Use of Navy SEAL’s Wife Highlights All the Key Ingredients of U.S. War Propaganda': https://theintercept.com/2017/03/01/...ar-propaganda/

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Originally Posted by Glenn Greenwald

DURING HIS Tuesday night address to the U.S. Congress, President Trump paid tribute to Ryan Owens, the Navy SEAL killed in the January commando raid in Yemen that Trump ordered. As he did so, television cameras focused for almost four full minutes on Owens’ grieving wife, Carryn, as she wept and applauded while sitting next to and being periodically touched by Trump’s glamorous daughter, Ivanka. The entire chamber stood together in sustained applause, with Trump interjecting scripted, lyrical expressions of support and gratitude for her husband’s sacrifice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_3FR6FrTEk

It was, as intended, an obviously powerful TV moment. Independent of the political intent behind it, any well-functioning human being would feel great empathy watching a grieving spouse mourning and struggling to emotionally cope with the recent, sudden death of her partner. The majestic setting of the U.S. Congress, solemnly presided over by the U.S. President, vested the moment with political gravity.

Media commentators predictably gushed that this was the moment Trump became “presidential.” Meanwhile, the U.S. media’s most reliable partisan warriors, horrified that the moment might benefit Trump, instantly accused him of exploiting these emotions, and exploiting Carryn Owens herself, for his own political benefit.

While there is certainly truth in their claim that Trump’s use of the suffering of soldiers is politically opportunistic, even exploitative, this tactic was hardly one Trump pioneered. In fact, it is completely standard for U.S. presidents. Though Trump’s attackers did not mention it, Obama often included tales of solider sacrifice, death and suffering in his political speeches – including when he devoted four highly emotional minutes in his 2014 State of the Union address to narrating the story of, and paying emotional tribute to, Sgt. Cory Remsburg, who was severely wounded by a roadside bomb in Afghanistan.

George W. Bush also hauled soldiers wounded in his wars before cameras during his speeches, such as his 2007 State of the Union address where he paid tribute to Sgt. Tommy Rieman, wounded in Iraq.

There are reasons presidents routinely use the suffering and deaths of U.S soldiers and their families as political props. The way in which these emotions are exploited powerfully highlight important aspects of war propaganda generally, and specifically how the endless, 15-year-old War on Terror is sustained.

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A different take: I would also Note that MKH is a young widow with kids.

http://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/0...-trump-or-you/

I don't know if anyone has any interest in watching these videos but this is his most recent and I feel it is worth watching if you're willing to be open minded about the Sweden data. He's produced a video every day he's been there.

Irish journalist Phillip O'Connor is based in Stockholm and tweets a lot about this - https://twitter.com/philipoconnor

Disclaimer - Phil's a friend of mine

I'm sick to death of bloody Sweden.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I'm sick to death of bloody Sweden.

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In that case, visit. You're likely to be a victim of a terrorist attack.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

In that case, visit. You're likely to be a victim of a terrorist attack.

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A nice back-alley stabbing would do me fine at this point. Politics, eh?

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I don't know if anyone has any interest in watching these videos but this is his most recent and I feel it is worth watching if you're willing to be open minded about the Sweden data. He's produced a video every day he's been there.

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Why do you feel this is worth watching? He has committed himself to producing a video each day and this video is just filler imo. My understanding is he is there to prove a connection between the current upswing in crime and the recent increase in immigration. He has yet to do so. He talks of others skewing crime statistics but is that not what he is doing? Look at statistics on those suspected of committing crime. That's down significantly in 2015 on 2012 recordings. Does not mean a smaller pool of "criminals" are increasing their "criminality activities"? Shouldn't there be a significant rise in new suspects to align with the influx of new immigrants?

Additionally is it possible recent immigrants are also victims of this new crime wave? He does mention hate crimes are up .....

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

'Trump’s Use of Navy SEAL’s Wife Highlights All the Key Ingredients of U.S. War Propaganda': https://theintercept.com/2017/03/01/...ar-propaganda/

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Seriously Danny?
You didn't think before posting that, did you?
You should take it back in the name of all that's good and decent.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Seriously Danny?
You didn't think before posting that, did you?
You should take it back in the name of all that's good and decent.

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What's your issue with it?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Going out on a limb here, but maybe international politics is a bit more complex than the English papers make out?

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Agreed. But the point is that there was talk of this violence before Donald Trump ever came on the scene. And now, all of a sudden he is being blamed for fermenting it.
All sense of reason goes out the window when you can no longer rely on the media for truthful reporting, and I fear we have arrived at that juncture now.
Bottom line is - Donald Trump was a real estate mogul and TV celebrity as late as two years ago. Everyone thought fondly of him including millions of Democrats.
Now, two years later there are folks comparing him to Hitler. In all seriousness, what has this man, who has employed thousands of immigrants and minorities, done in two years to deserve that type of hate speech?