Stephen Kenny

Seven goals conceded from distance tells its own story - we've got a soft centre and we're far too easy to get at now. It's not just 'bad luck'.

In terms of goals scored, for all of the talk of our improved playing style, we're still as reliant on set-pieces as our likeliest source of goals as ever. That and individual efforts, as with Obafemi against Scotland and Armenia, Collins against Ukraine, Parrott against Lithuania and Andorra, etc.

I can't remember our scoring many goals from good passages of play or obvious training ground moves.

I've asked this question since early in the Kenny reign, but for all of the insistence on playing out from the back, and often putting the ball at risk and gifting opponents goalscoring opportunities in the process, I'm still not quite sure what we're attempting to do in an attacking sense once the ball is played into midfield.

There's no real emphasis on getting the ball wide, getting bodies in the box and getting crosses in, nor do we have the guile and creativity in midfield to really cut teams open by playing through them. We often look at our most dangerous playing on the break away from home, where we can use the pace of Obafemi and Ogbene to effect. Against teams that defend deep, as we've seen over and again against teams as limited as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Lithuania and Andorra, we're often toothless and completely lacking in ideas.

Last Tuesday summed these problems up perfectly. We were woeful against a God-awful Armenia side who'd just been hammered at home 0-5 by Ukraine's second string and looked totally bereft of confidence and like they just didn't want to be there. They were completely there for the taking, and yet we almost contrived to lose to them.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

People won't admit it but Kenny's reign has painted McCarthy's second term in a new light. Played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1 in a difficult group is not bad at all.

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Of all the bizarre posts I've seen on this forum, adding a fictional sixth team to a five-team group and awarding us back-to-back wins over them is right up there.

"Doing some research for the weekend, and look at the average age of Ireland's XI in recent years:

Euro 2020 Q under McCarthy: 31.8, third-oldest in Europe

2022 WC Q under Kenny: 27.2, 10th-youngest in Europe

2022 Nations League under Kenny: 25.7, seventh-youngest in Europe"

Gavin Cooney, Minister for Propaganda

Cooney's one of the better journalists out there. Don't see anything wrong with what he posted

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Cooney's one of the better journalists out there. Don't see anything wrong with what he posted

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Sorry tets, that was a joke. Kenny and his shadowy media cabal etc.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Seven goals conceded from distance tells its own story - we've got a soft centre and we're far too easy to get at now. It's not just 'bad luck'.

In terms of goals scored, for all of the talk of our improved playing style, we're still as reliant on set-pieces as our likeliest source of goals as ever. That and individual efforts, as with Obafemi against Scotland and Armenia, Collins against Ukraine, Parrott against Lithuania and Andorra, etc.

I can't remember our scoring many goals from good passages of play or obvious training ground moves.

I've asked this question since early in the Kenny reign, but for all of the insistence on playing out from the back, and often putting the ball at risk and gifting opponents goalscoring opportunities in the process, I'm still not quite sure what we're attempting to do in an attacking sense once the ball is played into midfield.

There's no real emphasis on getting the ball wide, getting bodies in the box and getting crosses in, nor do we have the guile and creativity in midfield to really cut teams open by playing through them. We often look at our most dangerous playing on the break away from home, where we can use the pace of Obafemi and Ogbene to effect. Against teams that defend deep, as we've seen over and again against teams as limited as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Lithuania and Andorra, we're often toothless and completely lacking in ideas.

Last Tuesday summed these problems up perfectly. We were woeful against a God-awful Armenia side who'd just been hammered at home 0-5 by Ukraine's second string and looked totally bereft of confidence and like they just didn't want to be there. They were completely there for the taking, and yet we almost contrived to lose to them.

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Our midfield seems to be the issue for these long rangers , the armenia game the prime example. far too much space in front of the defence. for one reason or another we are passive at blocking these shots down too see coleman vs azer at home

How many goals have we gifted teams from playing out from the back? McGinns chance is the only real one i remember in the june window? open to correction

No emphasis on getting the ball wide? but we are averaging 19.6 crosses per game. it was 16 in 2020, there is cleary evidence of us using our wing backs more as our main creators.

your points stand up on attacking patterns, we look hopeless against most deep lying teams and set pieces seem our best way to goal. First half away in armenia was probably the best/most dangerous we've been v deep lying teams but our final ball killed us. less said about that 2nd half the better.

ryan manning motm again last night. his cross from a fk for swanseas winner was perfect. still cant really understand why kenny hasnt used him more even in friendly games. 10 mins against qatar etc madness.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

Our midfield seems to be the issue for these long rangers , the armenia game the prime example. far too much space in front of the defence. for one reason or another we are passive at blocking these shots down too see coleman vs azer at home

How many goals have we gifted teams from playing out from the back? McGinns chance is the only real one i remember in the june window? open to correction

No emphasis on getting the ball wide? but we are averaging 19.6 crosses per game. it was 16 in 2020, there is cleary evidence of us using our wing backs more as our main creators.

your points stand up on attacking patterns, we look hopeless against most deep lying teams and set pieces seem our best way to goal. First half away in armenia was probably the best/most dangerous we've been v deep lying teams but our final ball killed us. less said about that 2nd half the better.

ryan manning motm again last night. his cross from a fk for swanseas winner was perfect. still cant really understand why kenny hasnt used him more even in friendly games. 10 mins against qatar etc madness.

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Agree re Manning, especially when Stevens is unavailable.
We always seem prone to conceding long rangers against 'lesser' Eastern European teams.
We did it under McCarthy and O'Neill too (Estonia, Georgia away spring to mind)

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Agree re Manning, especially when Stevens is unavailable.
We always seem prone to conceding long rangers against 'lesser' Eastern European teams.
We did it under McCarthy and O'Neill too (Estonia, Georgia away spring to mind)

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We could do with a good goalkeeper (wink wink)

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Of all the bizarre posts I've seen on this forum, adding a fictional sixth team to a five-team group and awarding us back-to-back wins over them is right up there.

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You know what I meant.

Imagine if Kenny had a record any way close to McCarthy's. Statues would already have been erected.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

"Doing some research for the weekend, and look at the average age of Ireland's XI in recent years:

Euro 2020 Q under McCarthy: 31.8, third-oldest in Europe

2022 WC Q under Kenny: 27.2, 10th-youngest in Europe

2022 Nations League under Kenny: 25.7, seventh-youngest in Europe"

Gavin Cooney, Minister for Propaganda

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More evidence to show that Kenny had more youngsters to pick from. Our greatest crop of u21 players in a long time.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

More evidence to show that Kenny had more youngsters to pick from. Our greatest crop of u21 players in a long time.

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Just on this and I know I'm quoting myself, we obviously had a good crop of underage players during Kerr's time over them but the sheer numbers breaking through now seems unprecedented. Am I mistaken in that?

Knowing that it's harder now to make it at the top clubs, is numerous u21 players getting into starting line ups in lower premier league and championship teams as good as we can hope for and better than what we've had in the past?

It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

there's an edit button right there BS, learn to use it.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

Just on this and I know I'm quoting myself, we obviously had a good crop of underage players during Kerr's time over them but the sheer numbers breaking through now seems unprecedented. Am I mistaken in that?

Knowing that it's harder now to make it at the top clubs, is numerous u21 players getting into starting line ups in lower premier league and championship teams as good as we can hope for and better than what we've had in the past?

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I debated that with Pineapple Stu a while back when I think I was the first one to speak of a potential new Golden Generation - I named 70 young players who I felt were close to a breakthrough or had already broken through at League One level or above. As a counterpoint, Stu listed the Kerr squads (about 55 players) and showed that only a handful had become regular internationals, which of course could also happen with this generation, but I went on to name about 25 who I thought would be ready for international competition (ie playing at Championship level or above) by the time the Euro qualifiers rolled around and I don't think that number is going to be too far off. There is cause for optimism for the future when you consider that with Bazunu, Travers and Kelleher, we're sorted for keepers until the mid-to-late 2030s, with Collins, O'Shea, Omobamidele and, to a lesser extent, Jimmy Dunne, we're set for centre-backs until the mid-2030s and between Parrott, Idah, Ogbene, Robinson, Obafemi and even Connlly, I think we've already got enough quality up front to see us through to the mid 2030s, with a number of other forwards also close to a breakthrough. Our midfield is light at the moment but with Smallbone surely close to a senior call-up and Coventry close as well, we'll hopefully have more depth by the end of the season. So that just leaves wingbacks/fullbacks. And there are a lot of youngsters still on the horizon

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

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I think the major point for Kenny sceptics like Boomshakalaka and myself is that, overall he has more options than Mick 2.0 - Mick had a very limited squad and got us within one goal of a Championship - Kenny has had most of that squad plus most of a squad of young players starting out, with much more preparation time and has had three poor-to-mediocre campaigns, results wise at least. And yes, bringing those youngsters through early has been important, given the lack of players we've produced who were born in the mid-1990s - Kenny has done that, but the Mick was also doing that during his truncated tenure when "Kenny's Kids" were even younger. And, certainly, he deserved some leeway, particularly as he was trying to make us play different. And it seemed that things were turning around at the end of the World Cup qualifiers.

But the Nations League campaign has just brought up more concerns, particularly our lack of a cutting edge up front, where we now seem reliant on corners and Michael Obafemi's hamstrings holding up. I even accepted that once he had got the contract extension, it should take him right through the Euro 24 qualifiers as I believe a replacement would need a Nations League campaign to prepare properly and bring about an improvement - now I'm not so sure. Now, perhaps things will start to really come together over the next few months and we will do well and I am optimistic about the future overall, but right now I am a little pessimistic about our immediate prospects

All very reasonable but football is 11 on 11 and a plethora of young emerging talent is rarely better at digging out results than an experienced group with a good spine.

The argument will be that Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick et al were all also available for Kenny and that's fine, they sort of were. But they were all in various states of decline or declining interest. One of my main gripes with Kenny is that he didn't convince McGoldrick to stay on. He'd have really helped. He was out best player and then he was gone. Kenny should have picked him and made him captain or whatever it took to keep a proper striker in the team. The other players McCarthy had that should have been in their prime for Kenny all somewhat regressed as Boom himself pointed out back in 2020.

I do hope you're right on the 25 players making it to Championship level or above. Certainly there's enough talent about... They're just still very raw. I'd hope that 2-3 of them can get to world class levels and that would really make us competitive. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, Obafemi all have that bit of extra sparkle. Still a long way to go for all of them though and we still need more midfielders and wide defenders.

And you can count most people among the Kenny skeptics I'd say. I don't know anybody who is completely convinced. How could you be at this point?

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

It's evidence we lost experience certainly. Which is what I said to kick off our exchange. Your take is understandable given you think so highly of the talent that has come through.

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A younger keeper than Randolph, especially a 19 year old and 36 year old Glenn Whelan dropping from the scene goes a long way to lowering the average. But we've been over the experience part. Kenny had McCarthy's squad bar Whelan so your point has already been dismantled.

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Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

I debated that with Pineapple Stu a while back when I think I was the first one to speak of a potential new Golden Generation - I named 70 young players who I felt were close to a breakthrough or had already broken through at League One level or above. As a counterpoint, Stu listed the Kerr squads (about 55 players) and showed that only a handful had become regular internationals, which of course could also happen with this generation, but I went on to name about 25 who I thought would be ready for international competition (ie playing at Championship level or above) by the time the Euro qualifiers rolled around and I don't think that number is going to be too far off. There is cause for optimism for the future when you consider that with Bazunu, Travers and Kelleher, we're sorted for keepers until the mid-to-late 2030s, with Collins, O'Shea, Omobamidele and, to a lesser extent, Jimmy Dunne, we're set for centre-backs until the mid-2030s and between Parrott, Idah, Ogbene, Robinson, Obafemi and even Connlly, I think we've already got enough quality up front to see us through to the mid 2030s, with a number of other forwards also close to a breakthrough. Our midfield is light at the moment but with Smallbone surely close to a senior call-up and Coventry close as well, we'll hopefully have more depth by the end of the season. So that just leaves wingbacks/fullbacks. And there are a lot of youngsters still on the horizon



I think the major point for Kenny sceptics like Boomshakalaka and myself is that, overall he has more options than Mick 2.0 - Mick had a very limited squad and got us within one goal of a Championship - Kenny has had most of that squad plus most of a squad of young players starting out, with much more preparation time and has had three poor-to-mediocre campaigns, results wise at least. And yes, bringing those youngsters through early has been important, given the lack of players we've produced who were born in the mid-1990s - Kenny has done that, but the Mick was also doing that during his truncated tenure when "Kenny's Kids" were even younger. And, certainly, he deserved some leeway, particularly as he was trying to make us play different. And it seemed that things were turning around at the end of the World Cup qualifiers.

But the Nations League campaign has just brought up more concerns, particularly our lack of a cutting edge up front, where we now seem reliant on corners and Michael Obafemi's hamstrings holding up. I even accepted that once he had got the contract extension, it should take him right through the Euro 24 qualifiers as I believe a replacement would need a Nations League campaign to prepare properly and bring about an improvement - now I'm not so sure. Now, perhaps things will start to really come together over the next few months and we will do well and I am optimistic about the future overall, but right now I am a little pessimistic about our immediate prospects

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Yes, so many players in different positions but midfield is an area we could do with a few more. Kenny has been very lucky to have so many emerge at once though.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

All very reasonable but football is 11 on 11 and a plethora of young emerging talent is rarely better at digging out results than an experienced group with a good spine.

The argument will be that Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick et al were all also available for Kenny and that's fine, they sort of were. But they were all in various states of decline or declining interest. One of my main gripes with Kenny is that he didn't convince McGoldrick to stay on. He'd have really helped. He was out best player and then he was gone. Kenny should have picked him and made him captain or whatever it took to keep a proper striker in the team. The other players McCarthy had that should have been in their prime for Kenny all somewhat regressed as Boom himself pointed out back in 2020.

I do hope you're right on the 25 players making it to Championship level or above. Certainly there's enough talent about... They're just still very raw. I'd hope that 2-3 of them can get to world class levels and that would really make us competitive. Bazunu, Kelleher, Collins, Omobamidele, Obafemi all have that bit of extra sparkle. Still a long way to go for all of them though and we still need more midfielders and wide defenders.

And you can count most people among the Kenny skeptics I'd say. I don't know anybody who is completely convinced. How could you be at this point?

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McCarthy had a midfield of Whelan, Hourihane and Hendrick for the most part, some of the most heavily critisised players of the recent past. You even had a pop at Hendrick the other day, you clearly don't rate him. But McCarthy managed to get a tune out of them. Whelan was 36 at that stage and playing with Hearts. Kenny had to do without him but all the rest were in their prime as I've already pointed out to you. So again, covering your eyes and ears doesn't cut it, Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy's when you look at what's become available added to what was there.

Also, Duffy is one of Ireland's highest goalscorers under Kenny and has been a regular fixture. Facts keep getting in the way of your arguments. He has only been dropped because of the number of quality defenders coming through. Another fact that puts your argument to bed.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

A younger keeper than Randolph, especially a 19 year old and 36 year old Glenn Whelan dropping from the scene goes a long way to lowering the average. But we've been over the experience part. Kenny had McCarthy's squad bar Whelan so your point has already been dismantled.

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This is probably the worst of your arguments so if you think that it has dismantled anything.....yikes. Do you need to be introduced to the concept of time and how things change as it passes? I've already pointed out that you've contradicted yourself on this very point. Your argument that the players coming through are something McCarthy didn't have that Kenny does is a better one overall if we were arguing pure squad ability levels but it doesn't answer the lack of experience piece so it's not that useful here really.


Let's go back to basics:

My point - Kenny has had less experienced players to select than McCarthy, particularly in key positions. One by choice to be fair (Didzy) and that was a huge mistake for me. McCarthy relied a lot on Randolph, Duffy, Whelan and McGoldrick. Our best performances were those when Randolph kept us in the game, Duffy got a goal, Whelan kept us disciplined and McGoldrick led the line. Those players OVER TIME, disappeared or sadly lost the plot in one case. Ultimately we were in a transition where that spine needed to be replaced in Kenny's first few years or sooner. Surely you can at least agree to that if you don't agree that the replacing has been done well? It was staring us in the face just as the wing back positions are now. We still haven't replaced McGoldrick which is really saying something although Obafemi may give us something completely different and better if he keeps going.

Your answer to this has been two fold I suppose but correct me if I missed a point:

1) "but look at this list of talent with all these breakthroughs!" - There were maybe 3 or 4 real breakthroughs on your list and even if your entire list had positive ones, that doesn't answer a lack of experience. Quite the opposite obviously. Again, we massively disagree on the levels of talent available. I'm as hopeful as samhaydenjr but we are years away from having an experienced side. So, as I said, not a great argument here.

2) "But he had the same players available"
My point - You yourself noted that a lot of those players were struggling badly or on the way out. I quoted you from 2020 saying that it was a "big concern for Kenny looking ahead" You've ignored that you contradict yourself by quoting another post you made, presumably later, which was essentially the opposite i.e. you stated that Kenny had a slightly stronger team.
My response - You thinking that and the reality of the situation are two different things. A bunch of unproven talent and a bunch of expiring talent doesn't answer the deficiencies in experience we had in key areas, notably GK, centre half, centre mid and striker.

I do think Kenny's squad has the potential to be better than Mick's squad, and by quite a margin. Mick's squad was by no means good. There were weak links all over the place and it was the last good effort the better ones had. Mick did a decent job getting the most out of them. It was an experienced unit though, again with our best performers playing in key positions. Until we have a really good option up front and more options in midfield at least, we are going to struggle to break teams down and we are going to cough up stupid goals from nothing. Unless we find a very good manager of course but I wouldn't trust the FAI with that job just yet.

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

McCarthy had a midfield of Whelan, Hourihane and Hendrick for the most part, some of the most heavily critisised players of the recent past. You even had a pop at Hendrick the other day, you clearly don't rate him. But McCarthy managed to get a tune out of them. Whelan was 36 at that stage and playing with Hearts. Kenny had to do without him but all the rest were in their prime as I've already pointed out to you. So again, covering your eyes and ears doesn't cut it, Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy's when you look at what's become available added to what was there.

Also, Duffy is one of Ireland's highest goalscorers under Kenny and has been a regular fixture. Facts keep getting in the way of your arguments. He has only been dropped because of the number of quality defenders coming through. Another fact that puts your argument to bed.

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And how was he doing when Kenny took over?

On Hendrick - yeah McCarthy had some of the same dross Kenny has had to use. I'd argue Kenny has actually gotten more out of him so he's a bit of a weird one but mentioning him doesn't help you particularly as he's gone backwards in his career over time. Having to play him is where we are at due to the lack of real breakthroughs on your previous list. So again it works against you.

Try to answer one point clearly - why did you think Kenny had a huge problem back in 2020 in terms of players available? We had all this talent coming in that you keep referring to. So what was your big concern?