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You missed the point CD. I wasn't being pedantic about the word admit, but I took slight offence knowing that you had no interest, that you had the arrogance to act as though you are in some authority - to admit - because you are "involved" in the church/the religion.
I think you've overanalysed this POSH. I was just trying to distance myself from the church, clumsily I'll admit.
I'm too lazy to multi-quote but just in response to some of the above from Charlie:
Nor would I be in any way forgiving. Whatever about whether fascism is joined at the hip with racism and anti-semitism (I'm absolutely sure it is but not quite so sure why it has to be) it's a charter for psychopaths and thugs at the very least. The "order" and "control" it seeks can only be arrived at by coercion.
I'm not trying to suit any argument, as you suggest, other maybe than that our wondrous liberal-democracy and liberal markets haven't exactly worked wonders, in the UK and US at least.
I actually fully agree with your earlier post about communism being morally superior to fascism, with both being misguided and unworkable. And yes, Di Canio's pride to be associated with fascism and fascist groups is completely stained by its association with ethnic purging. I was never saying otherwise. All I was doing was picking up on a comment by Danny that Italian fascism was subtly different to German fascism, and - almost in a contradictory manner - rooted in left wing principles, just enforced by, well, fascists!
I read a book recently "The Clash of Economic Ideas" by Lawrence White (Larry White, Larry White, Larry Larry White...) which tried to summarise the key economic debates of the 20th century. Unfortunately Professor White was a devotee of the Austrian School of extreme laissez-faire-ism who had a complete boner for Von Mises, Hayek, Reagan and Thatcher and couldn't disguise his disdain for Keynes, Galbraith, FDR etc., so in my mind the book was rarely objective. One weird chapter about FDR's New Deal post-Great Depression went so far as to say that it was rooted in the ideology of the so-called Institutionalist economists which themselves were in awe of Italian fascism (although this pre-dated the ethnic violence and WW2). Talk about trying to discredit a left-wing (by US standards at least) economic programme by association!
With communism and fascism both discredited, debate typically now centres around right-wing market-liberalism and left-wing politics with a significant role for the State. My right-wing friends (I've only only one or two, honest) say, with some justification that you should never underestimate a politician's capacity to spend your money on popular but unproductive and flawed projects. To this I counter never underestimate the capacity of unfettered free markets to allow vested interests to gain control of markets and to rig them to their own benefit.
Personally I'm a very avid follower of Keynes (as opposed to what has become known as Keynesianism) but I'm curious, as I said above, about German ordoliberalism. If anyone is well-informed about the latter I'd like to learn more to make a better judgment.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't suggesting you were trying to suit an argument. I was talking about the likes of Di Canio, who see fit to flash fascist salutes but when they're actually questioned about it say "I don't want to talk about this" and "I'm not a fascist, just ask my best friend Trevor Sinclair." Same as Americans who proudly fly the confederate flag but get indignant when anybody suggests they might somehow be sympathetic to slavery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
American libertarians are great craic. The New Deal was influenced by some of the same ideas as fascism but to use that to discredit the former is ridiculous.Quote:
I read a book recently "The Clash of Economic Ideas" by Lawrence White (Larry White, Larry White, Larry Larry White...) which tried to summarise the key economic debates of the 20th century. Unfortunately Professor White was a devotee of the Austrian School of extreme laissez-faire-ism who had a complete boner for Von Mises, Hayek, Reagan and Thatcher and couldn't disguise his disdain for Keynes, Galbraith, FDR etc., so in my mind the book was rarely objective. One weird chapter about FDR's New Deal post-Great Depression went so far as to say that it was rooted in the ideology of the so-called Institutionalist economists which themselves were in awe of Italian fascism (although this pre-dated the ethnic violence and WW2). Talk about trying to discredit a left-wing (by US standards at least) economic programme by association!
I'm sure James would be in full agreement :pQuote:
With communism and fascism both discredited, debate typically now centres around right-wing market-liberalism and left-wing politics with a significant role for the State. My right-wing friends (I've only only one or two, honest) say, with some justification that you should never underestimate a politician's capacity to spend your money on popular but unproductive and flawed projects. To this I counter never underestimate the capacity of unfettered free markets to allow vested interests to gain control of markets and to rig them to their own benefit.
Did anyone see the pics in the Daily Mail today of Di Canio attending the funeral of a convicted fascist bomber a few years back? I'm not sure the aviator shades he was wearing were just a fashion thing, but being Irish it's hard not to see the connection with terrorist thugs.
admission as you have shown above implies guilt ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
That convicted neo-nazi 'bomber' was acquitted of all bombing charges. Nothing is straightforward in Italy, not fascism and definitely not that Bologna train station bombing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But that's another complicated conspiracy with direct investigated proof of CIA involvement in the background.
We had a thread in the World Forum about Di Canio and his 'roman salute' to the Lazio Ultras, some 7 or 8 years ago.
AFAIR, the Italian FA were not prepared to accept Di Canio's explanation and even Lazio disowned his action. I think that was his 2rd strike on the 'roman salute' and he did a 3rd during the short life of the thread. I thought at the time that Di Canio was setting himself up for a political career.
In Italy, Di Canio blamed the fuss about his fascist salute on jewish groups and said something to the effect that if they hold sway then it's the end. His racial slur was about that there were all sorts of verbal abuse on the pitch but when it involves a black man then everybody complains.
His sentiments expressed then are in contrast to what he professes these days.
In making those type of comments publicly and making political gestures on the pitch, then for sure he has to answer to it. But if he has learned to be circumspect in the intervening years and distance himself, then I don't see that it should be an issue. He's a born nutcase who has learned to somewhat temper his views.
Really? I've tried finding a source on this but all I can find is him telling everyone his manager is Jewish, therefore he's not a racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Good post. I wish I was able to articulate these sorts of ideas which I sympathise with (ie the state of UK society and so-called democracy) in the pub and/or online without being accused of being a Nazi or a racist or whatever reactionary ****e.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Great to see discussion like this on a football site. I'm no advocate of 'football and politics do not mix' and it reminds me that I should look up foot.ie a little more often.
Good posts by Danny as well.
As Paolo spoke in Italian, maybe do the search in Italian. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
There was a report in the English Times and that site is firewalled from google search. This is what I could find for you. Obviously my parameters are more deadly than yours.
http://www.joinmust.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21913
Di Canio row could end in court
From Richard Owen in Rome
The Times December 14, 2005
THE row over the latest “fascist salute” by Paolo Di Canio, the Lazio captain, worsened yesterday as Italian Jewish groups threatened to take him to court for “anti-Jewish” remarks, in addition to whatever disciplinary action he may face.
Di Canio, 37, remained unrepentant over his “raised arm salute” to Lazio fans at the end of last weekend’s 2-1 defeat by Livorno, a repeat of the gesture he made at the end of a match in January against AS Roma, which Lazio won 3-1. He was fined €10,000 (about £6,750), which far Right groups raised to help him to pay. “I will always salute as I did because it gives me a sense of belonging to my people,” Di Canio said.
“I saluted my people with what for me is a sign of belonging to a group that holds true values, values of civility against the standardisation that this society imposes upon us. I’m proud to be able to count on such people and I will continue to salute them in this way.”
He added fuel to the flames by saying the “fuss” was being made by Italian Jewish groups. “If we are in the hand of the Jewish community, it’s the end,” he said. “If action is taken because one community is up in arms, this could be dangerous.” Vittorio Pavoncello, president of the Italian Maccabi Federation, the Jewish sporting organisation, said it was “considering legal action ”.
Sunday’s match between Lazio and Livorno was as much a political confrontation as a sporting one, since Livorno supporters are left wing while hardline Lazio fans traditionally back the far Right. Lazio fans held up swastikas and sang Fascist era songs, while Livorno fans waved red flags. Claudio Lotito, the Lazio chairman, said Di Canio had been “provoked”. However, the club said in a statement: “Lazio repudiates any kind of racism or politicisation of football.”
I remember there was also a hard core neo fascist/nazi web site with a page dedicated to Paolo, with his tatoos and 'roman salutes' in full glory. Of course there's nothing to suggest that Paolo had anything to do with it, but easy to see how the poison spreads. That site has been shut down.
Thanks. Typical fascist, speaking Italian like that.
Here you go
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/S.../dicanio.shtml
and
http://www.farenet.org/default.asp?i...tArticleID=824
The good news was that Livorno won ;)
My God Stutts you must hate Ayn Rand. ;)
The photo they didn't want you to see.
http://i4.chroniclelive.co.uk/incomi...90-1350292.jpg
Red Hand of Ulster salute?
I loathe her. It's a bit like L Ron Hubbard and Scientology. How can people fall for such drivel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Agree about L Ron. I think Ayn has some decent points.
There was a commercial about L Ron during the Super Bowl touting all his achievements and the next day one of the papers disputed every single one. ;)
Good but that was doing the rounds years ago! And resurfaced last weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauro 76
Danny;posted those links belatedly back up thread.
Post #1968
IMO Chuck D. has ruled this thread and smashed the ball outta the ball park...
Like gassing the weak? What was it she called them, mopers or something like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Are you afraid she considers you weak stutts?:D