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This whole post is you using absence of evidence to support your theory which you can't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
I could make the exact same counter points. No team has been vocally against it, etc
Also it was never said that when it was released wasn't the right time to do so by Lucids team. So now you're just making stuff up.
I'd prob agree with this, also back to a previous point I made, no club should be 'forced' to join, and they wont. However this should not prevent those who want to apply to do just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
I think one of the biggest obstacles for IL clubs is to move away from the comfort zone of possibly Tues and Thurs night training, and 3pm KO on Sat, which allows players to continue work outside football and for most to operate part time.
If their bigger clubs don't join, continuing to play in the current season of Aug to April is not going to help the euro qualifying clubs who wont play a league games for 4-6 weeks before their first euro game. Linfield had a very good euro run last year, this was an exception rather than the rule, and they got some fortunate draws, but they also did (a lot) better than Dundalk v Qarabag, and better overall as they won 4 of their 6 EL games, but they did also lose 6-0 on agg in the first round v Rosenberg in CL.
Here is the full article.
Irish FA stand firm on no all-Ireland
Optimistic All Island League visionary Kieran Lucid knew he was flogging a dead horse.
The Kerry businessman had already run his new proposal for a knock-out style All Island competition past football chiefs at the Irish Football Association.
He did not receive the response he wished for.
But despite knowing the Irish FA would refuse to sanction clubs from the Danske Bank Premiership to take part in any new All Island League venture, Lucid and his team - who have invested a considerable amount of time, expertise and money into the initiative - ploughed ahead in releasing their new proposals to a wider audience and hoping to garner support in the court of public opinion.
Lucid, who has been working in conjunction with Dutch business innovation experts Hybercube, proposed the all-island Champions being crowned via a knockout competition.
This event would take place at the end of a split season where the League of Ireland and Irish League would retain independence by declaring their own Champions.
Derry City have been the latest League of Ireland Premier Division club to pick up the baton for Lucid, encouraging all parties, including clubs north and south as well as relevant associations, the FAI and IFA, to give serious consideration to the AIL project.
But the Irish FA, who flatly rejected initial proposals for the formation of an All Ireland League last October, have already informed Lucid they will not entertain his new proposal and, without consent from Northern Ireland football's governing body, clubs under their affiliation would not be sanctioned to play.
Without support from both the IFA and their FAI counterparts, UEFA will not even consider granting status to a new league.
Irish FA President David Martin exclusively told Sunday Life Sport: "The Irish FA Board, after careful consultation, came to the decision we would not go down that road last October and our position has not changed.
"We are aware of the new proposal, we've seen it, we know that it has been distributed widely, but there is nothing in the document to make us change our minds. There is too much uncertainty in terms of finances. From a business perspective, the figures do not add up. They are all hypothetical.
"The proposals are based on opinions rather than actual facts so they don't stack up for us.
"We believe we have built up a strong senior league in this country, a great product, and we don't want to do damage that.
"We have not agreed to jointly examine any new report. Our position has not changed."
Irish League clubs were split last year when Lucid and his team sought interest in the form of a number of meetings.
Crusaders were understood to be bitterly disappointed the Irish FA chose to kick the initiative straight into touch.
But President Martin insists the IFA's main focus is ensuring a strong and thriving senior league when we come out of the coronavirus pandemic and he points to the fact Chief Executive Patrick Nelson and Chief Operating Officer Sean Murphy addressed the Premiership committee last week, informing them of the work they are doing on their behalf with the Northern Ireland Executive and Government agencies.
"It has been suggested that the Irish FA do not have NIFL clubs, and those who play in the Premiership, at the top of our ambitions. I would strongly refute that," states President Martin.
"Since the NIFL came into existence in 2013, and before that when clubs were under the umbrella of the IFA, senior football clubs have been a priority for us. They are the flagship for the local game. We want to see a thriving and healthy senior league, a place where young footballers are given the opportunity to further their careers and indeed be a pathway to full-time football in England and Scotland.
"We want to improve significantly the League's club co-efficient rating on the European stage.
"The senior game is prominent in the five pillars of the Irish FA's five-year strategy, which we are all working towards.
"Every business is going through a difficult time with the effects of the coronavirus pandemic and it's really challenging. These are unprecedented times and it's important we support every strand of our game to make sure, when football does return, it comes back as strong as possible and we want to take the game forward."
President Martin concedes cross-border competition will continue, but only on the terms of Irish FA and FAI.
"We have spoken to the All Ireland group and we informed them that we have a number of projects with the Football Association of Ireland and their clubs which are going well and we may look to expand on," he stresses.
"We have matches in the women's game, at intermediate level involving men, the Regions Cup, our disability teams have excellent relationships with their counterparts down south, there is the President's Cup, which is a match between the winners of the respective Junior Cups, and then, of course, last year, for the first time, we held the Champions Cup and those were two great events in Dundalk and Belfast.
"There is an opportunity to widen that competition, possibly going from two teams to four and maybe even eight. But we would need to enter into discussions around that with the relevant people."
The IFA appear to have hammered a final nail in the coffin of Lucid's AIL dreams, but he didn't take no for an answer first time around and there is no indication he will accept this outcome.
Apart from the fact I have personally been involved, in receipt of all discussion documents and attended the meetings, let alone speak to other clubs on a regular basis, then it is much more than just a theory. As for no team being vocally against it, and I presume you mean the second proposal as several went public on the first, most clubs already knew it was going no where and had more important issues to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Lets make it even simpler again! No IL no AIL, no AIL no need for any budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Hardly high risk to commit to a budget that will be committed to anyway in due course and there is no loss of monies budgeted, going forward, for if/when it all falls on its ass. If you are Virgin Media who bids regularly for various broadcast rights, and hence need to make a committment in their budget in hope of winning. Now if Virgin Media are beaten in the bidding process by RTE say, whats happens to the money that Virgin had been willing to commit (ringfenced and all)?
No loss of money yes but they may lose out on other rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
What you mention about being beaten in a bidding war is just another reason companies won't commit money without the associations backing. There can't be a bidding process before the associations give their backing, afterwards there can.
And that's just TV rights, with sponsorship there's no bidding so while you're not losing money that's not the point of a marketing budget, money sitting idle in it if there's opportunities out there is just wasted money and people would be fired if they put money aside for what's basically an idea on paper without half the backing it needs.
Those working in big companies at any level of seniority are busy people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I've never worked in broadcasting, but I have managed multi-million Pound/Euro marketing budgets for major companies in the past. And I suspect the underlying business realities are not that different to broadcasting rights. .
If someone came to me with an interesting proposition (which, to be honest, happens a lot), I'd have one meeting with them to suss it out. After that I'd tell them to come back to me when it's more fully baked, and I wouldn't put more effort inti it personally until then. As you've about a hundred other things you're meant to be pursuing at the same time, so you focus on those with genuine legs.
I might have a junior person act as an ongoing point of contact, but I wouldn't be diverting myself from the job over it. Especially if your pay is in any way bonus-related.
That's just the reality of how the commercial world works.
I mean all this really exposes is that the IFA are, were and always will be a bunch of bigots like their DUP pals and are unwilling to put the interest of their members before their own political views (you can mention all you want about the clubs not wanting it, that would be a point if the IFA even consulted them but they've just said "we said no in October and we won't budge") and are using finances as a thinly veiled get out of jail free card.
What more can you expect though from an organisation that still plays GSTQ, and they wonder why player after player elects to play for us instead.
Considering Sky have the rights to show NI football at present would they come on board if the AIL takes off? As someone whos not familar with the inner workings of the NIFL how many of the clubs up north are Catholic and who are they?
In the premiership, Cliftonville and that's it really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Which for a country with a basically 50/50 split Catholic and protestant is pretty odd don't you think.
I was being hythetical in relation to Virgin Media, not being specific to this proposal. I am still damn sure that a TV company will in general set out and set aside a budget for anything they are bidding to show, football or other media for braodcast. If they subsequently dont end up spending that money it isnt lost to the company.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Its not the same as sponsorship granted but a minimum amount of financing for an AIL, money to clubs in particular, needs to be indicated and this can be done. I am sure there are expressions of interest from potential sponsors and even informally what funding could be available - there is bound to be a guide. Yes it does need to be baked for more for progression but this is true for a budget also. There are additional possible income streams also that is not sponsorship. It is what it is and heads need to be turned dor some more than others maybe and the only way to do that is with money!!
Yes you have mentioned bigotry just the one or two times RH, you are determined to bang that drum! Good job Lucid hasnt gone in with similar assumptions. IFA could have its hand forced by NIFL if the clubs so wish but there are also clubs that are currently luke warm due to the lack of a fully baked proposal. Maybe those clubs are bigoted too, would a LoI club be the same for seeking further info or not jumping up and down with enthusiasm. I am not commenting on whether I believe that politics is influencing the IFA or NIFL as as with any organisation there will be a range of thinking and motivations, it doesnt matter what I believe in that regard anyway. There will need to be a pragmatic approach to deal with any and all real issues that are held by people, justified or not.
Money always talks in the end!!
A TV company will set aside money for something they are willing to show. But unless you're the ceo you're not setting money aside for a league that is not much more than an idea in someone's head and requires the cooperation of a notoriously bigoted group to even get off the ground. Because at your end of year review you'll be asked what in God's earth you put money that could have been used elsewhere aside for. I really don't think you get how these companies work, to them that is lost money, its also lost slot allocation because if they put money aside to show live football they also have to block off a time slot for it which is then huge if they don't fill it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Thing is lucid does have companies willing to put money in just not in the amounts needed, but to have that with all the obstacles in place currently is fairly impressive.
I'm not calling the IFA bigoted for having problems with the AIL, I'm calling them bigots because they refuse to engage in the process to even explore the possibility that those issues could be resolved. That's what makes it clear their issues aren't sincere not that they have them.
If Lucid really thinks this will work, why doesn't he put up some of his money for a share in the new company?
Football in the north is overwhelmingly dominated by clubs and administrators from a unionist background. There will be a number of reasons for that, including the strength of the GAA in Tyrone and other areas. Though there has over the years patently been issues with sectarianism : right up to this century when Donegal Celtic and Lisburn Celtic had to threaten legal action against the IFA/Irish league to be allowed to join the upper levels. But I honestly don't think conscious sectarianism is the big issue with football in the north these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Most clubs in NI would draw fans of all faiths and none. But the reality is that the north is very split territorially along religious lines, and consequently so too are its football clubs. Of the 35 clubs in the top 3 tiers of the pyramid in NI (i.e. everything above Junior level really), only 4 clubs are based in identifiably Catholic/nationalist areas (Cliftonville, Warrenpoint, Newry and Newington). A further 2 are based in areas that are pretty mixed these days (Armagh and Dungannon, although Dungannon's limited support does seem to be more unionist in nature). One club (Queens Uni) could be considered 'neutral'. I may have got a team or two wrong in that breakdown, but the broad gist is right. So in a place where the population is roughly split 50-50 between those of a nationalist and unionist background, the top 3 levels of football lean essentially 90% towards clubs from a unionist background.
This is important beyond just a head count and symbolism, as football generally draws its administrators from within. So a structure that is dominated by clubs form a unionist background will likewise be dominated by administrators from a unionist background too.
I wouldn't go so far as Rathfarnham Hoop as to assert that the IFA is solely and continually motivated by bigotry. I think the bigger problem is that most (though by no means all, as it has been run by people from clubs like Cliftonville before) of those involved in the game in the north see the world through unionist-tinted glasses. In an area where such people have largely lived in a bubble of total British cultural dominance for a century, and react with horror at that being challenged in even the mildest way (look at the uproar a few months back in the main unionist newspaper, and amongst some unionist politicians, that so many young people are wearing GAA jersies at Queen's these days. Imagine having your sense of identity challenged by having to even look at a GAA jersey and even acknowledge the presence of the sport! The horror of it all!).
So for administrators and fans from that worldview, why shouldn't they play GSTQ at games? It's NI's and their anthem after all. The GAA in the North would be the polar opposite btw, seeing the world through nationalist-tinted glasses. Both need to get a grip.
So this is the problem. Those running NI football and the overwhelming majority of its clubs are largely from a cultural background which wants NI to remain separate from ROI in every way. They'll be happy to join in on the odd cup competition like the Setanta or Blaxnit over the years, as that involves no threat to the separate status of the two associations and their clubs. But a league? Well that's a different matter. And they just want Northern football to continue along as it is now as a Belfast/Antrim-dominated and unionist-dominated entity, whilst NI continues to change around them in ways they refuse to even see or accept. Hence the flag and anthem have remained issues at internationals and cup finals for decades. And the IFA have no desire to change it, because they see no problem with it themselves.
P.S. The one rare occasion that the IFA did make a change was when they agreed that GSTQ shouldn't be played at Irish Cup Finals if a team from a nationalist background was involved. But the DUP called them to a meeting hastily, and that policy was immediately reversed. Resulting in the ludicrous scenes when Cliftonville played Coleraine in the final 2 years ago.
Correct on Cliftonville, the only established nationlist club in the IL Prem. Warrepoint would be also, but tiny club, Newry also in FD, but another very small core support base, all others are of the other persuasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
GAA football is the biggest sport in NI, and the biggest attendance football (soccer) team is Derry, so taking both into account, the IL is primarily a Prodestant / Unionist run league. They even play GSTQ at cup finals, which was incredibly insulting to Cliftonville when they qualified for the final a few years ago.
You see its not, GSTQ is Englands National Anthem, FLower of Scotland, Land of my father (Wales) etc, in reality the Unionist created NI state simply 'adopted' this just to force their dominance on the other side. This was cetainly not in keeping to repersent both communities, and added to the decades of trouble, a neutral anthem one like Danny Boy or another would have been more acceptable and better received.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
This bigotry line is a borderline obsession at this stage, I think you may just have gotten your opinion across! I know you understand what hypothetical means and that you know what I was getting at when i said 'anything they are bidding on'. If your are avoiding the premise of mypost well it says plenty in itself.
Cliftonville was actually a unionist club up until the late 1970s btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
At that point a combination of Belfast's shifting demographics due to The Troubles and the dropping of the club's amateur status, saw it attract a completely new fanbase. Prior to then the Reds had been an amateur club with a largely unionist (though also small in number) support base.
Regardless of the why - GSTQ is NI's anthem. There is no other.Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
So if you view the world from a unionist perspective, why shouldn't it be played?
I honestly don't think it was adopted to force dominance on the other side. It was adopted because those who did so saw NI as the team of a unionist-dominated state, and they saw/see the world through a unionist/British cultural worldview. So of course they were going to pick GSTQ.
Flower of Scotland and Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau are not official national anthems btw - just widely used ones. Only Westminster has the power to decide on official national anthems, even for the devolved nations/regions.
I got exactly what you meant and it has been answered, I've avoided nothing and I sense that if it wasn't me saying this Nesta you'd actually agree because everyone here and their mother knows why the IFA are really against an AIL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
As someone who has never shied away from calling out sectarianism, bigotry or similar within football in the past from within or related to the IFA, I can say with confidence that such is not at play in this instance. To claim such is only an attempt to deflect from the real issues with the proposals imo.
The clubs who initially were weighing in behind the AIL proposals all came from strong unionist backgrounds too.
HiFrom a Catholic Area, you’ve got Cliftonville and Newry City. Lurgan and Donegal Celtic have fallen out of the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Oh dont flatter yourself!I have no agenda agaisnt any member here! I give an opinion and react to individual posts and not the poster. I havent called you or anyone else stupid, among other things, or questioned your various abilities when disagreeing with your posts! Can you say the same? You have referred to specifics of the AIL in relation to using the Virgin Media example, you havent referred to the point being made in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Do you accept that people have an opinion and different viewpoint that is as vaild as your own?
I have agreed that there are possible politically driven motivation for some people in the IFA, I dont agree that an entire organisation or officers or all officers at clubs are driven by bigotry. The vast majority want clarification on various issues in the proposal. I can understand due caution, I'd be as concerned if not more so if clubs and associations were so eager that no clarification on anything being sought.
I've no doubt that most of those on the Board of the main clubs will look at this issue seriously. Being involved in running a football club is a sobering business that would over-time shake the daftness out of most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
The issue I see, however, is with the fans. They don't have to worry about the nuts and bolts and finances of things, and are happy to let their own politics and prejudices influence how they want football to develop.
The problem in the north is that a number of the key clubs are actually run by their fans/members. So whilst the Board of Crusaders may be very supportive of an AIL, for example, they could well find their fans vote otherwise if it was ever put in front of them (which it would have to be at some point). Some other clubs aren't as directly run by supporters, but would probably feel it unwise to go against the strongly asserted wishes of their fans. I would perceive trouble ahead for Linfield on this in particularly.
Is there a single club in the Irish league who's fanbase seems to be generally in support of an AIL? Would Cliftonville be in that boat alone?
If the IFA even attempted to engage in the process I wouldn't think it but they haven't even so much as given each proposal a second read by the sounds of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
I'll remind you of your entry to the discussion, making assumptions without properly reading posts based on me being a poster, you said it not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I answered the virgin media stuff perfectly? Just because the answer didn't suit you doesn't mean there wasn't one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I have time and time again said I respect people having issues with the proposal, a refusal to even engage on those issue is another matter.
In regards to fan owned clubs, I reckon their Articles would allow their board to make the call without the need to go to ma vote. However their members could call an agm.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
As for Cliftonville's fan base, I never got the sense that there was any real enthusiasm for the Lucid plans, other than maybe a good away day booze up. In general terms, I'm sure most hold the aspiration of an AIL, but in the main they are realistic enough that the club comes first.
And you would be wrong on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
How exactly have they engaged with the process?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
An observation on trends of posts? No personal jibes! It's pointless when a discussion turns in to a punch and judy like show of 'oh no he didnt, oh yes he did'. It is not about the answer fitting, its simply not answering within the boundaries of the question. It's like a politician who doesnt answer a straight forward question but continues on talking through everyone on the question and then claims he's given his answer. It's a case of giving an answer but not answering what was asked.
I will repeat my previous point, I disagree that there is a serious problem of bigotry at the IFA that is sabotaging the Lucid proposals. I firmly believe that there is actually a lot more to it than that, maybe there is greater suspicion on the whole thing at the IFA it being an AIL proposal and the few that have the chip on the shoulder speak out. There are people at the IFA that in the end, whenever that might be, recognise that a lot of problems with both leagues, are fixed by this plan. Most clubs are seeking more info so not killing the proposal. Others, including Dundalk believe that its 2-3 years away in what needs to be done to do it properly - working on easing the concerns of some clubs and officials, Outlining the finances available. as much as is possible eg a TV deal, and show the minimum amount available to clubs - with the liklihood of that money increasing as the project starts to bed in. If the money is significant and could even increase, clubs would look to be involved and if the NIFL decides the project has merit then the IFA are superceeded - a useful power to have if the IFA are not interested. The figures need to bring prizemoney in to allignment maybe but it certainly needs to match the money of whichever league currently pays most and match it if its a super-setanta structure that is chosen. A full season AIL will require a doubling of what is paid by the league that pays out most at minimum. Club officials could sell that and convince supporers and even the naysayers in the IFA.
There have been several meetings and calls held with relevant documents forwarded. The IFA also took soundings from their clubs into consideration too. This process did not just start o the night of the Dundalk meeting back in October. It has been running for a long time before that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
So either way, the fans would decide for those clubs. And have the power to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
There is nothing to stop any company from committing to finance a deal like this in principle, subject to it getting authorisation from the relevant authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
It wouldn't cost them anything, whilst if the deal is as good as Lucid promises, it would get them first in line ahead of the competition.
Sure what would you know about it, Mr. P?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
I mean, compared with foot.ie's correspondents on the ground, like EatYerGreens and Rathfarnham?
Don't be bringing facts into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
Or pointing out that the most vocal supporters are a "Prod" club from North Belfast, whilst the most vocal opponents are their "RC" club rivals in North Belfast. (I assume you know which ones I mean! :) )
Actually, I think you'll find that it was Lucid who was declaring deadlines.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Here is what he had to say as recently as last June:
"The jolt comes from the timeframe. For this to happen, the clubs will have to vote in its favour within a matter of two or three months. This is because an abridged 2020 campaign would precede the purported utopia of 2021 thereafter.
“We are working towards an autumn go or no-go decision by the clubs. I would ask: why wait another year? They would have to justify the why,” [Lucid] went on, giving the impression he is not going to be around forever.
https://www.the42.ie/kieran-lucid-al...97749-Jun2019/
It does cost them if it falls through because this money is basically investment money so if nothings done with it there's no return so as far as they're concerned money is lost because it could have been used elsewhere to generate revenue.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Companies will have targets. They'll say that y in sponsorship should generate x in extra revenue. So by committing money to a project that doesn't have half the backing it needs therefore unlikely to get off the ground whoever signs that off runs the risk on being x short on their targets, putting their job at risk
Coming out saying "we said no in October and we still say no" doesn't exactly scream actually giving any problems any more than lip service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
Are you drunk? You seem to be implying that I said setting deadlines was a bad thing when I said the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Not just my view. Here is what Lucid said in today's Irish Times.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
"The IFA, I think to their credit, have kept the door open to us. After that initial reception in October when they came out against it, they agreed to meet us so that they could keep the discussion going and they met us three more times. We have met them with Hypercube and we have had multiple informal chats as well so I am grateful to them for keeping the discussion going at least.
“They have expressed their concerns. I think their concerns around the European spots were valid and we have revisited everything on that basis. Scenario four takes everything on board really."
Well at least thats a change in the angle of argument but it is also clutching at straws. It would be a commitment in principle and everyone would know that it isnt signed and sealed and with the eccentricities of all parties involved that until a ball is kicked there is a significant chance of not happening as hoped. But talk of losing jobs at companies who are interested in sponsoring because a radical reform doesnt happen is hghly unlikely. In Irish football most sponsorship is benefaction in nature with limited impact in a small underseveloped market - there isnt an expectation of extra revenue bar maybe at the top clubs (who is Athlones shirt sponsor?).Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
You do realise the whole aim of the AIL is to change that yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
But, but, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
Rathfarnham assures us that that isn't so, indeed cannot be so, since they're all DUP bigots at the IFA.
Especially their Chairman, their CEO, their Chief Operating Officer and (until last month) their Manager:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-footba...irish-fa-staff