Under-21 Squad

Definitely a step down from previous squads, but not unexpected. We have had exceptional depth at Under 21 for the last five years, it's almost a crime that Crawford has failed to qualify us for a finals (and yet is still there).

This is the first group that has come through after Brexit changed the rules on going to Britain, so potentially that is having an impact on the quality we're bringing through. This is largely a squad of non-Irish born players and Irish born players who have had to delay their exits to the UK but are now over there trying to play catch up.

Seriously, what the **** are we doing calling Mason Melia up for these friendlies instead of the 19s elite phase where he’s our best player. Shooting ourselves in the foot.

I’d agree it’s a big step down, but I also think it always looks a bit that way at the very start of a campaign and it tends not to be as bad as it looks…

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

Seriously, what the **** are we doing calling Mason Melia up for these friendlies instead of the 19s elite phase where he’s our best player. Shooting ourselves in the foot.

I’d agree it’s a big step down, but I also think it always looks a bit that way at the very start of a campaign and it tends not to be as bad as it looks…

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Maybe because the better player Noonan will start ahead of him in the 19s ;)

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Maybe because the better player Noonan will start ahead of him in the 19s ;)

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That’s the knock on effect, now the 17s lose Noonan who’s there best player for their elite stage

You want O’Mahony starting for the 21s, Melia for the 19s and Noonan for the 17s. Jim strikes again

I think lads should be promoted to higher levels if they are good enough. The underage squads are all about development for the seniors and if a player is ready for step up he shouldn't be held back.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

I think lads should be promoted to high levels if they are good enough. The underage squads are all about development for the seniors and if a player is ready for step up he shouldn't be held back.

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I really disagree - each situation is individual. It’s a single camp. Germany u19 will be a better team than Scotland u21s, so you’ll be playing better opposition - you’re leading the team to a certain degree, which is also something important for Mason.

I also think the benefit of going to a summer tournament far outweighs any difference there might be. Then you look at game time, Mason would be starting every game for the 19s and he really shouldn’t be for the 21s.

Then your knock on effect is that for Noonan to get the games, he stays with the 17s, where they really need him.

The U21s are building towards their next campaign. I think it's fair to pick the strongest squad available and the beauty of it is that it allows another young lad to step up and prove his worth. None of these lads are the finished article and so it's about developing them, physically too. The German u19s might be better technically but the u21s is a big step up in physicality. I also believe lads should be in seniors when they are ready and it's irrelevant what the underage squad has going on at same time. All underage football is about preparing lads for the seniors

The 19s are playing qualifiers, the 21s are playing friendlies. So the 19s should get first pick this time around. Would be different if they were both playing qualifiers.

I understand I'm probably in the minority with my opinion, but I firmly believe good young players should be pushed on to higher levels as quickly as possible. The under 19s Euros are every year, you can't be constantly worrying about them at the cost of players stepping up

Melia wasn't included in the U19 squad for the first qualifying round due to injury, wonder if that plays into his inclusion in the U21s?

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

I understand I'm probably in the minority with my opinion, but I firmly believe good young players should be pushed on to higher levels as quickly as possible. The under 19s Euros are every year, you can't be constantly worrying about them at the cost of players stepping up

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FWIW, I agree with you. All underage teams are in service of the MNT and bringing talent up and through. If players are good enough to play up a level, then they should play up the level. Would we want to stop (bad example incoming) Ferguson playing up to the seniors to maximize the chance that U21s would qualify or U19s when he was first called up? If not, why would it be any different for other underage levels? The principle is admirable but it is not practical.

Some more concerning stuff here from Crawford on Zefi, turning up lacking fitness for international camp, Crawford trying to "help him in other areas". Reading between the lines (and taking account of previous rumours I've heard) it sounds like he doesn't have the right mentality for professional football at all.

https://archive.ph/pgKzY

Interesting also that Sam Curtis was left out. There might be an element of trying others out in friendlies, but if he saw him as central to his plans I doubt he'd be leaving him out all the same.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Interesting also that Sam Curtis was left out. There might be an element of trying others out in friendlies, but if he saw him as central to his plans I doubt he'd be leaving him out all the same.

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Jim picked him ahead of Ebosele and Abankwah as a 17 year old, and now 2 years later, he’s being left out of the squad. Confusing…

Both indicative of the mistakes Sam Curtis made in his career, club choices etc. and of Crawford’s lack of judgement both now and throughout the previous campaign

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Definitely a step down from previous squads, but not unexpected. We have had exceptional depth at Under 21 for the last five years, it's almost a crime that Crawford has failed to qualify us for a finals (and yet is still there).

This is the first group that has come through after Brexit changed the rules on going to Britain, so potentially that is having an impact on the quality we're bringing through. This is largely a squad of non-Irish born players and Irish born players who have had to delay their exits to the UK but are now over there trying to play catch up.

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You are insistence on getting the Brexit is bad for us narrative in. Questionable how strong the last U21 group was/ is. For example, the star player of the last U21 campaign was Andy Moran who you don’t rate

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Interestingly I don't rate Moran at all at present, while he might eventually come good I think he's powderpuff and a waste of a squad place at this point in time.

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Other standout players in that group are still underage - it is quite arguable Abankwah was the best performer of that campaign and he is still underage for the next U21 campaign. Of the matchday squad that played the 1-1 away game against Italy - Moran, Abankwah, Vata (still U21 eligible) and Armstrong are on the senior squad radar. It’s possible a couple of more will get there in time but that’s a distance in the future and probably a distance in the future before the four aforementioned names can be impactful senior players.

BTW Noel King’s last U21 squad, a pre-Brexit squad, was particularly weak in terms of producing senior players, only Cullen has become a fixture in the senior squad. King’s squad before that gave us Browne and O’Dowda who are currently squad players at best. So there is no conclusive evidence either way to confirm Brexit is bad/ or good for us. Maybe in a couple of decades the answer will be clearer.

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

Jim picked him ahead of Ebosele and Abankwah as a 17 year old, and now 2 years later, he’s being left out of the squad. Confusing…

Both indicative of the mistakes Sam Curtis made in his career, club choices etc. and of Crawford’s lack of judgement both now and throughout the previous campaign

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I get that his progress since moving to the UK isn’t as fast as many expected, but Curtis is arguably consistently playing games at as high if not a higher level than nearly all of the defenders in the 21s squad. Celtic and Rangers aside, the Scottish Premiership is probably roughly English league one standard, while in the squad we’ve Grehan playing LOI, Murphy playing regular league one, O'Brien and Okagbue playing regular league two, Otegbayo in the Championship but with only 1 start at that level, while Barratt and McManus are playing underage/reserve football

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Originally Posted by ifk101

You are insistence on getting the Brexit is bad for us narrative in. Questionable how strong the last U21 group was/ is. For example, the star player of the last U21 campaign was Andy Moran who you don’t rate Other standout players in that group are still underage - it is quite arguable Abankwah was the best performer of that campaign and he is still underage for the next U21 campaign. Of the matchday squad that played the 1-1 away game against Italy - Moran, Abankwah, Vata (still U21 eligible) and Armstrong are on the senior squad radar. It’s possible a couple of more will get there in time but that’s a distance in the future and probably a distance in the future before the four aforementioned names can be impactful senior players.

BTW Noel King’s last U21 squad, a pre-Brexit squad, was particularly weak in terms of producing senior players, only Cullen has become a fixture in the senior squad. King’s squad before that gave us Browne and O’Dowda who are currently squad players at best. So there is no conclusive evidence either way to confirm Brexit is bad/ or good for us. Maybe in a couple of decades the answer will be clearer.

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All of the following players were Under 21 eligible in the last campaign:

Aidomo Emakhu
Andrew Moran
John Patrick
Sean Roughan
Cian Hayes
Sinclair Armstrong
Bosun Lawal
Josh Keeley
Baba Adeeko
A. Garcia McNulty
Ollie O'Neill
Tom Cannon
Joe Hodge
Festy Ebosele
Andrew Omobamidele
Gavin Bazunu
Troy Parrott

Plus Evan Ferguson who is still Under 21 eligible but snuck out the door at 16 around the time the Brexit rules kicked in. The 2002/2003 group is miles stronger than the 2004/2005 one.

Does that definitively prove that the Brexit rules that did not impact the 2002/2003s, but have impacted the 2004/2005s are the main reason for that - no it doesn't. But it's likely to be a factor and is certainly worthy of note.

I would suggest that your approach of trying to shut down the mere consideration of it by saying that it can't be determined until decades into the future suggests that it raises a valid concern that you'd rather wasn't discussed for whatever reason!

As for your comment of there being no conclusive evidence as to whether it's bad or good for us, well there may not yet be conclusive evidence that it's bad (albeit a picture appears to be emerging), but anyone inside Irish football and youth development that knows the details of the facilities, coaching and contact hours available to developing players in the country will tell you outright that it's definitely not good.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

All of the following players were Under 21 eligible in the last campaign:

Aidomo Emakhu
Andrew Moran
John Patrick
Sean Roughan
Cian Hayes
Sinclair Armstrong
Bosun Lawal
Josh Keeley
Baba Adeeko
A. Garcia McNulty
Ollie O'Neill
Tom Cannon
Joe Hodge
Festy Ebosele
Andrew Omobamidele
Gavin Bazunu
Troy Parrott

Plus Evan Ferguson who is still Under 21 eligible but snuck out the door at 16 around the time the Brexit rules kicked in. The 2002/2003 group is miles stronger than the 2004/2005 one.

Does that definitively prove that the Brexit rules that did not impact the 2002/2003s, but have impacted the 2004/2005s are the main reason for that - no it doesn't. But it's likely to be a factor and is certainly worthy of note.

I would suggest that your approach of trying to shut down the mere consideration of it by saying that it can't be determined until decades into the future suggests that it raises a valid concern that you'd rather wasn't discussed for whatever reason!

As for your comment of there being no conclusive evidence as to whether it's bad or good for us, well there may not yet be conclusive evidence that it's bad (albeit a picture appears to be emerging), but anyone inside Irish football and youth development that knows the details of the facilities, coaching and contact hours available to developing players in the country will tell you outright that it's definitely not good.

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Consider the U21 teams fielded in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 (which equates to two qualification campaigns). Only ten players from those years have played a senior international game to date. Of those ten, only three players have 30+ senior caps: Browne, Cullen, O’Dowda. 7 of the 10 are Irish born (or grew up in Ireland (Ronan Curtis)). Of those 7, two joined UK clubs before the age of 18 (Jack Byrne and Darragh Lenihan). The most successful of those seven players in terms of senior caps; Browne (37 caps), Maguire (11 caps), Manning (13 caps), McGrath (13 caps) all left for the UK aged 18 or over – mention this as Brexit blocks moves before 18.

While far from conclusive, this four year sample is not supportive of sending our kids to the UK as a good idea – (albeit a picture appears to be emerging). If I believe a four year sample is not conclusive, you can understand why I forward the need for decade or more to give a more definite answer. We really want hard facts documenting the number of kids that went to UK clubs prior to Brexit, how many progressed to professional football/ senior international and comparing that with post Brexit figures. Data taken over a decade or more removes abnormalities, certain years will have better/ weaker groups of players than others. However, and maybe purely coincidental, but the national team's gradual decline over the past 25-30 years does coincide with UK clubs becoming increasingly global in scope in player sourcing.

And let’s not forget, if a kid wants to leave Ireland before 18, there is a whole continent open to them.

We know that very few talents emerged from the 1993 to 1997 year groups, that's why we have so few Irish born players older than 26 in our squads now. But those years were the big anomalies dating back to players born as far back as the 1970s. That should be an anomaly that we don't see again for years to come. That's you're using that group to justify the weakness of the current group is a concern, we shouldn't be judging against the worst years in living memory. If that's what we're resorting to assessing this group against them it's even more likely there's a Brexit related issue at play here.

Of course there's a European option too, but it's understandable that the language and cultural differences are a deterrent to parents sending their kids into that environment. Unfortunately there's a real chance that within a few years it will be seen as the only viable option, particularly if a few more Sam Curtis type cases occur. No doubt the development of the likes of Melia and Noonan among others will be being viewed very closely.

I've been out of touch. How long has Moorhouse been mooted as an Irish recruit and how does he qualify?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I've been out of touch. How long has Moorhouse been mooted as an Irish recruit and how does he qualify?

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Don't know how he qualifies but apparently he was in an Under 19 training camp previously to get a feel for it. Decided to commit and this is his first proper call up.

Reading up on the squad. Joe Gardner's mother is from Dublin. Connor O'Brien's father is from Drogheda. Can't see anything on Moorhouse.

It will be interesting to see how he goes because he plays in a position where, if he shows promise, there could be a case to fast-track him into a senior squad if he's happy to commit.

United fan I follow on twitter raves about him, was delighted when I DM'd him the squad with Moorhouse in it

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

We know that very few talents emerged from the 1993 to 1997 year groups, that's why we have so few Irish born players older than 26 in our squads now. But those years were the big anomalies dating back to players born as far back as the 1970s. That should be an anomaly that we don't see again for years to come.

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Maybe there was talents, but lost to an over-reliance on outsourcing player development? Would be interesting to know how many kids born 1993 – 1997 went to UK clubs before the age of 18 and compare than with a different time period. To judge the anomality, that is.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

That's you're using that group to justify the weakness of the current group is a concern, we shouldn't be judging against the worst years in living memory. If that's what we're resorting to assessing this group against them it's even more likely there's a Brexit related issue at play here.

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You are offering an opinion that the current U21 squad selected for upcoming friendly games, (a group of players that have yet to play a competitive game and unclear if the squad selected will be reflective of squads selected for competitive games), as suggestive of a negative Brexit impact on the quality of player at our disposal. I offered a comparison of competitive teams fielded pre-Brexit over two qualification campaigns as a dismissal of your Brexit is bad for us tendencies, which I believe is pre-mature without a decade or more of factual evidence to justify this opinion. You are choosing to reject this comparison as “we know that very few talents emerged from the 1993 to 1997 year groups” but are insistent that the current group’s subjective weakness is suggestive of a negative Brexit effect rather than an anomality or the historically norm where some years produce better players than others.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Of course there's a European option too, but it's understandable that the language and cultural differences are a deterrent to parents sending their kids into that environment. Unfortunately there's a real chance that within a few years it will be seen as the only viable option, particularly if a few more Sam Curtis type cases occur. No doubt the development of the likes of Melia and Noonan among others will be being viewed very closely.

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Not sure why the development of Curtis, Melia and Noonan will be viewed with increased scrutiny, by parents? I suppose having their kids stay at home until 18 and still command a hefty transfer fee will raise eyebrows though. And Sam Curtis has just turned 19. James Abankwah was being written off (here) at 19 because he wasn’t getting in a L1 team. Let’s calm down before totally writing him off. And honestly, a language barrier. Ok to ship 16 year kids off to digs in Manchester but don’t send them a foreign speaking country. Jeez.

We know who the 2004 and 2005 players are by now, particularly the Irish born ones, we don't need to have them named in multiple under 21 squads to find out who they are.

It's just interesting that you are so keen to try to shut down this line of discussion. Nobody is saying at this point that Brexit is the root cause of the drop off from the previous under 21 groups to this crop, but it's a major change to our player development pathways compared to previous groups so obviously any trends here are going to be looked at. But you seem determined to ensure that any possible link is dismissed out of hand and not considered until years, decades even, into the future. I wonder why that is?

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

We know who the 2004 and 2005 players are by now, particularly the Irish born ones, we don't need to have them named in multiple under 21 squads to find out who they are.

It's just interesting that you are so keen to try to shut down this line of discussion. Nobody is saying at this point that Brexit is the root cause of the drop off from the previous under 21 groups to this crop, but it's a major change to our player development pathways compared to previous groups so obviously any trends here are going to be looked at. But you seem determined to ensure that any possible link is dismissed out of hand and not considered until years, decades even, into the future. I wonder why that is?

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What trends? What possible links? Show them. If you post your subjective opinion on an open forum, the possibility exists it could be challenged (Ordinarily I usually ignore it/ not read it, but quiet day today). And it's a silly attempt at deflection to label questioning of subjectivity as an attempt to shut a conversation down. And do you really need to wonder why an Irish football fan wants to maximise our player development? Really?

You should have a read of this https://online.flippingbook.com/view/194290909/

Found also this while rooting up the first link. Not Ireland specific but relevant findings. https://belgianfootball.s3.eu-centra...evelopment.pdf

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Found also this while rooting up the first link. Not Ireland specific but relevant findings. https://belgianfootball.s3.eu-centra...evelopment.pdf

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Very interesting find. Haven't had time to scan it properly, but the Abstract had this interesting nugget:

"... the fixed effects estimates prove that players leaving to England before having first team experience perform significantly worse than youth players who stayed in Belgium. Moreover, their market value and hence wages will also be lower. These observations are however not significant for youth transfers to the Netherlands or France. This implies that young players need to be warned for a youth transfer to England"

Perhaps the study elaborates, but I suspect that this difference is accounted for by two things:
1. English academies are so big, and (at least pre-Brexit) drew players from all over, so they are/were maybe less patient and/or more ruthless in ditiching youngsters who didn't make it straightaway. Brentford cottoned on to this, so that after ditching their own Academy due to unfair new financial regulations which hurt them, they successfully replaced it with a 'B'Team set-up, which drew upon 17 and 18 y.o.'s who had been discarded prematurely from other clubs' academies and brought them on into their early 20's;
2. The cultural, distance and language differences must put English football at a disadvantage to the Dutch and French when accommodating Belgian youngsters, all the more should they come from an African background originally, as a fair number do.

Which in the light of your comment* in #386, could be reversed for Irish youngsters going to England in preference to the Continent i.e. they're more likely to settle in quickly eg in Manchester or Liverpool than they would do in Munich or Lille?

* -" And honestly, a language barrier. Ok to ship 16 year kids off to digs in Manchester but don’t send them a foreign speaking country. Jeez."

There's a good clutch of non Irish born players in this squad. No major issues with it but one of them playing with Tamworth in National League North (Ronan Maher) gives Noel King vibes. 7 in total might be par for course.

Disappointed not to see Sean Moore in there, mainly for his courage in switching!

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Originally Posted by ifk101

What trends? What possible links? Show them. If you post your subjective opinion on an open forum, the possibility exists it could be challenged (Ordinarily I usually ignore it/ not read it, but quiet day today). And it's a silly attempt at deflection to label questioning of subjectivity as an attempt to shut a conversation down. And do you really need to wonder why an Irish football fan wants to maximise our player development? Really?

You should have a read of this https://online.flippingbook.com/view/194290909/

Found also this while rooting up the first link. Not Ireland specific but relevant findings. https://belgianfootball.s3.eu-centra...evelopment.pdf

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Once again, this is your decision to start an argument, not mine. I'm simply raising a possibility, not claiming anything definitively. You've gone off on one because you can't even deal with it being put forward as a suggestion.

I haven't read your links, but if it's something to do with success rates of Belgian footballers overseas as the subsequent posts suggest, then I think it can be safely ignored from an Irish point of view as Belgian kids have access to far better facilities and coaching than is available in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

There's a good clutch of non Irish born players in this squad. No major issues with it but one of them playing with Tamworth in National League North (Ronan Maher) gives Noel King vibes. 7 in total might be par for course.

Disappointed not to see Sean Moore in there, mainly for his courage in switching!

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Didn't realise he was left out. Really dumb...

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

All of the following players were Under 21 eligible in the last campaign:

Aidomo Emakhu
Andrew Moran
John Patrick
Sean Roughan
Cian Hayes
Sinclair Armstrong
Bosun Lawal
Josh Keeley
Baba Adeeko
A. Garcia McNulty
Ollie O'Neill
Tom Cannon
Joe Hodge
Festy Ebosele
Andrew Omobamidele
Gavin Bazunu
Troy Parrott

Plus Evan Ferguson who is still Under 21 eligible but snuck out the door at 16 around the time the Brexit rules kicked in. The 2002/2003 group is miles stronger than the 2004/2005 one.

Does that definitively prove that the Brexit rules that did not impact the 2002/2003s, but have impacted the 2004/2005s are the main reason for that - no it doesn't. But it's likely to be a factor and is certainly worthy of note.

I would suggest that your approach of trying to shut down the mere consideration of it by saying that it can't be determined until decades into the future suggests that it raises a valid concern that you'd rather wasn't discussed for whatever reason!

As for your comment of there being no conclusive evidence as to whether it's bad or good for us, well there may not yet be conclusive evidence that it's bad (albeit a picture appears to be emerging), but anyone inside Irish football and youth development that knows the details of the facilities, coaching and contact hours available to developing players in the country will tell you outright that it's definitely not good.

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I will say, the 2004 class I think were by far the ones most effected by covid in terms of the football they missed at the key moment in their development. The 2005 lads had some friendlies at u16 and an u17 qualification etc, whereas the 2004 lads missed their u16 and their u17 tournament and u18 is generally a pretty dead year (although there were a few friendlies against Hungary if I remember correctly).

RE Brexit, we've yet to really see any Brexit successes of all the players that headed to the continent or who stayed. James Abankwah might be the first (bit of a weird one in that he stayed until 18 and ended up signing in the continent anyway).

Nzingo at u15 and the beginning of 16s was considered the 2004 most talented player (Evan was playing a year up with the 2003 kids) - don't think the path to France really worked for him. It happens though. Okoflex was really highly rated at the same age and it turned out how it looks Nzingo will turned out. It does feel very hard to judge overall, my gut test says it's been bad for us - that Adam Murphy, Alex Murphy, Sean Grehan, Justin Ferizaj, Mark O'Mahony, Glory Nzingo, Conor Walsh, Kevin Zefi, Franco Umeh, Jamie Mullins, Joe O'Brien Whitmarsh - that those guys would be better now if they had gone to an English team at 15/16. But really who knows? If Tayo Adaramola was a 2004 kid and was the player he is now, I might have put that down to his lack of elite development from what was a really really promising player at u17 and u19 level.

Moore played in the two games at the end of last year, I think this squad is more about looking at players in the fringes for the qualifying group

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Moore played in the two games at the end of last year, I think this squad is more about looking at players in the fringes for the qualifying group

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No issue with that if that’s the case - but once again, then if that’s how we’re viewing it, why are we calling Melia up if it’s a camp to look at fringe players - call up Eoin Kenny or Tommy Lonergan or Adrian Thibauld to play second fiddle to Mark O’Mahony

In terms of the debate earlier in the week as to whether the situation with players staying on longer in Ireland these days is a benefit or a problem, this article raises some very interesting points:

https://archive.ph/HeZq2

The problem is it's pretty much been shown that moving abroad too young is, on balance, detrimental to a player's development in general.

It may be better than staying in the LoI - but if so, that's indicative of a big problem Irish football is facing, and I suspect we can expect to continue being international also-rans as long as we perpetuate a failed developmental model.

I don't think anyone would disagree that it's aspirational to want to have better structures at home. But this is about what's available in Ireland right now, not what we'd like there to be available.

Zefi's call up for the Albanian U21s confirmed
https://fshf.org/sq/miqesoret-ndaj-g...blikon-listen/

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

I don't think anyone would disagree that it's aspirational to want to have better structures at home.

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It's not aspirational - it's essential. Going abroad at 16 is generally speaking not good for a player's development.

Essential or not, they presently don't exist. The current options are - go abroad outside the UK at 16, or stay in Ireland with the current structures until 18 and go abroad then or later.

No other options exist if the player wants to reach a high level in the game. So in terms of discussing current emerging players there's no point in discussing anything outside of the above options.