Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

Why would you want a crown, a Zionist star and two red hands on Any fleg FFS?

And as Bonnie says why no Saltire?

As for the Tricolour, apparently it already offends too many unionists.
Maybe it's just too orange?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm merely saving an army of expensive designers the trouble of producing something that people can't agree on. As you know, a horse designed by committee would be...a camel ;)

If there's no need for change, why don't you prefer to stick with the tric?

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Where did I say change? More goalposts being moved.

I would gladly keep the trickler but would also accept the Four Provinces or Saltire. I don;t think there's many who would find either offensive in any context. Perhaps some Republicans would get miffed at the saltire. but feck them.

How have I moved goalposts? I merely anticipated future demand for supposedly all-inclusive symbols and poked gentle fun at it.

I don't dislike the Saltire symbol, it just looks a bit odd.

So why not answer the points made above then?

And have this feeling the Saltire is not the only odd looking thing on this MB.

I don't usually answer your posts (and nor does anyone else) because they're almost always moronic, abusive, trolling, or all three. Do us all a favor and fcuk off, there's a good lad.

http://nowolves.com/glow%20in%20the%20dark%20600.png

I agree Gather, that's someone who uses Vox as a source, that's all ye need to know. Vox!

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I don't usually answer your posts (and nor does anyone else) because they're almost always moronic, abusive, trolling, or all three. Do us all a favor and fcuk off, there's a good lad.

http://nowolves.com/glow%20in%20the%20dark%20600.png

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Controversial. The ol' cross hairs appearing in a discussion on NI is rarely a sign of good community relations. Unfortunate.

Charming, though clearly the education system has failed in the North on the basis of GR's spelling...
And clearly doesn't do irony.
Given their blatant hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The Spanish government's prospective veto over any UK-EU deal if it isn't satisfied with Gibraltar's future status also came up in discussion and Flanagan was rightly asked why the Irish government hasn't similarly demanded and secured a veto so as to ensure it will have decisive influence over the post-Brexit status of the north of Ireland.

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The Detail (or someone sounding like Newtown Emerson) outlines an alternative take on the Irish government's negotiating/bargaining position:

https://vimeo.com/211773119

Four IRA men give their various opinions on the state of play presently in the I.T. today.

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Originally Posted by Irish Times

The ex-IRA men: ‘United Ireland? It’s all guff’
A group of paramilitary veterans say Brexit won’t derail the peace process, violence won’t return, and they’ll never see a united Ireland

Gerry McGeough is a prominent republican and former member of the provisional IRA and now a farmer in Co. Tyrone. He explains to Simon Carswell how Brexit is the best thing ever for Irish nationalists and republicans.

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Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...guff-1.3041131

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Four IRA men give their various opinions on the state of play presently in the I.T. today.



Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...guff-1.3041131

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I read that earlier. Thought-provoking stuff.

My own effort. Nods to the Trickler, Union Fleg, and using the same design as South Africa will give the Shinners the chance to remind everyone how they were mates with Nelson Mandela which should get them on board.

Attachment 2548

I just came across the highly-rated Bobby Sands: 66 Days documentary on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDiQrifqCzY

It's sure to be of interest to a few of yous.

I see the same YouTube user who uploaded 66 Days has also uploaded Voices from the Grave (along with numerous other documentaries covering politics and conflict in the north):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCZShda0Oq4

Voices from the Grave is very insightful and well worth a watch. It is based primarily on the "Boston tapes" interviews (overseen by journalist Ed Moloney) with former-IRA volunteer Brendan Hughes and ex-UVF volunteer and PUP leader David Ervine conducted before they died.

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Originally Posted by Ed Moloney

Voices from the Grave tells the story of the Northern Ireland Troubles through the unflinching testimony of two men who were on opposite sides of that bloody conflict, the IRA’s Brendan Hughes and the UVF’s David Ervine. Nearly ten years ago they talked to researchers from Boston College with the understanding that the interviews would be not be made public unless the interviewees either gave permission or died. Hughes and Ervine are both dead and this documentary tells the story of their wars in their own voices.

The stories of Brendan Hughes and David Ervine span the Northern Ireland Troubles. They talk about their motivations for joining the conflict, the daily planning of campaigns of violence, the close calls with death, the guilt and regret that come from violence and killing, the despair of hunger strikes, and the deadly hunt for spies and informers. It is also a story of betrayal and duplicity and the fate of combatants once their wars are over.

Voices from the Grave is directed by Kate O’Callaghan and Patrick Farrelly and written by Ed Moloney and Patrick Farrelly, based on the book by Ed Moloney. Made with the support of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and Radio Telefis Eireann. First broadcast on RTE1 on October 26, 2010.

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From IMDB:

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Originally Posted by IMDB

The story of the Northern Ireland Troubles through the unflinching testimony of two men who played key roles on opposite sides of that bloody conflict. Nearly ten years ago the two paramilitary leaders told their stories on condition that they could never be revealed while they were still alive. The stories told by the Irish Republican Army's Brendan Hughes and Ulster Volunteer Force's David Ervine tell us of the motivations of the participants, the planning of campaigns of violence, the misery of a hunger strike, the tracking and killing of informers and the duplicity that ended a conflict that had lasted too long. It is also a narrative of the fate of combatants when their wars are over.

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A really refreshing and progressive approach to the question of possible Irish unity outlined by unionist/loyalist Sophie Long (who recently left the PUP after provoking controversy within the loyalist community upon tweeting condolences to the "family, friends and comrades" of Martin McGuinness) on BBC Radio Ulster's Talkback programme this afternoon as she urged fellow unionists to start preparing for what she now regards as a "slightly more likely" united Ireland and to start outlining what sort of settlement or arrangement would be most palatable for them. Listen here from 7m50s: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08ljfn9

She admits that, given the recent electoral blow dealt to unionism, rather than battening down the hatches, unionists need to look outward and must strategise in preparation for what will be a "unionist apocalypse". Long refers to herself as a "pragmatic unionist" and describes her approach as a "contingency plan" or "insurance policy"; essentially, to paraphrase, she's saying that if unionists plan for unity, they can at least have a seat at the table and will have their voices heard so as to help ensure they won't be absorbed into a political territory that they had no role in shaping. I would very much welcome such dialogue, debate and discussion. A united Ireland will be one of compromise, and that's something a lot of nationalists and republicans will have to come to terms with too if we're to realise it.

For what it's worth, here are some recent tweets from Long on the matter:

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A forward-looking Unionism could and should outline its vision of a United Ireland inc links to UK and Commonwealth, minority rights etc.

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Refusing to acknowledge demographic shifts and the impact of Brexit is not political strategy or principledness. Its a lack of vision.

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"Never, never, never" worked so well last time. What could possibly go wrong?

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Alternatively, there's always non-territorial autonomy. Plenty of political options for Unionists to avail of. None of which are saying "No"

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We aren't in 1913 and won't see a cross-class alliance of militant Unionists. Any solutions must be political, non-violent and creative.

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Even pockets of organised violence will be quickly stymied. In a post 9/11 security setting no major operations will be successful.

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'Roadmap to a united Ireland revealed in new report by leading Irish politicians': http://www.irishcentral.com/news/pol...sh-politicians

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Originally Posted by Sheila Langan

The Joint Committee of the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement appointed Senator Mark Daly to compile a report on the effect of Brexit on Ireland, what Ireland should seek to have in the final agreement between the EU and the UK, particularly in the event of the people of Northern Ireland voting for a United Ireland, and what Ireland needs to do in order to peacefully achieve its constitutional obligation, as outlined in Article 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution, which stipulate that a majority vote can be used to trigger a referendum on a united Ireland.

...

At 1,132 pages, the report delves into the impact of Brexit on the question of a united Ireland, historic precedents for such a unification (such as that seen in Germany), the current economic climate and potential financial implications of a united Ireland, how a post-Brexit Ireland could be united in peace and prosperity, the groundwork laid by the Good Friday Agreement, and the constitutional and legal changes that must be made before a united Ireland is achieved.

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One of the most compelling points argues that while the United Nations Human development index, which measures health, education, and income levels worldwide, ranks Ireland as sixth in the world alongside Germany, Canada and the United States. By contrast, Northern Ireland ranks 44th, with Hungary and Montenegro, but would drop below 50th post-Brexit, closer to Kazakhstan and Belarus.

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Originally Posted by Irish Times

Two tribes: A divided Northern Ireland
A new mapping project illustrates the geographical split between Catholics and Protestants in what is still a deeply divided society -
The UK’s decision to leave the EU has coincided with a renewed focus on demographic shifts in Northern Ireland. The rapid increase in the Catholic population and the decline of the Protestant majority has been well catalogued. What is less well known outside the North, however, is the extent to which the two communities still live apart after 20 years of the peace process, and how tension between British and Irish identities remains unresolved.
We explore those issues today and next week in a unique mapping project published in The Irish Times, on irishtimes.com and on Belfast journalism website thedetail.tv. The colour-coded maps, by software engineer and data analyst Dr Mathew Doherty, illustrate how patterns of division have persisted. They use government data from each census held in 1971, 1981, 1991, 2001 and 2011 to show where Protestants (in blue) and Catholics (shown in green) live in Northern Ireland.
There are many reasons why divisions remain, including the fact that public sector housing estates are deeply divided.

British and Irish cultural traditions are also reflected across society. The vast majority of Catholic and Protestant children are taught in separate schools, but while the educational divide is often expressed in solely religious terms, schools can reflect the nationalist or unionist identity of communities they serve.
The data illustrate the degree to which cities and towns remain divided or predominantly populated by one community, and the faultlines in a society still emerging from conflict

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This piece also contains some very interesting graphics of the shifting population trends based on the various census counts since 1971 and their impact on how things might be about to unfold, the main thread is the still largely divided society in housing and education particularly - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...land-1.3030921

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An increase in the number of Protestant immigrants, particularly from Africa and India, has helped to re-energise some parishes, and there has also been an influx of worshippers who grew up as Catholics.

One parishioner from Lucan estimates his local church-going population as 50pc traditional Church of Ireland, 25pc African or Indian, and 25pc people who were baptised as Catholics.

"There are a number of people from a Catholic background who feel more comfortable in the Church of Ireland at the moment, but I would not see this as a form of competition," says Patrick Comerford.

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http://www.independent.ie/life/irish...-35621422.html

This is consistent with the fact there are more Northern Catholics who would rather remain in the union than there are Northern Protestants who desire unification.

:confused:

I'm just hoping that someone can explain to me the supposed connection or "consistency" between a number of Catholics in Lucan converting to Anglicanism and the fact that a higher proportion (37 per cent) of Catholics in the north of Ireland may prefer to maintain a political union with Britain than the proportion (5 per cent) of northern Protestants who'd vote for Irish re-unification.

Does it make me a bad Irishman if I would welcome a United Ireland more for the opportunity it would bring to tear down and rebuild the rotten political system in the Republic than anything to do with nationalism and territorial integrity?

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Does it make me a bad Irishman if I would welcome a United Ireland more for the opportunity it would bring to tear down and rebuild the rotten political system in the Republic than anything to do with nationalism and territorial integrity?

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Funny, that's kind of my view, and subsequent hopes for it too.

That's a very pragmatic viewpoint tbh and one which I would be in agreement with.

Of all the fig leaves we can offer Unionism, a 'look lads, we need a hand to sort this sh*t out, its a mess' would surely turn their heads, see, this works on every level :)

And with Unionism's proven track record of a one tier society with a fair hand dealt to all and opportunity based on merit they will be the very men we need, surely ?

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Of all the fig leaves we can offer Unionism, a 'look lads, we need a hand to sort this sh*t out, its a mess' would surely turn their heads, see, this works on every level :)

And with Unionism's proven track record of a one tier society with a fair hand dealt to all and opportunity based on merit they will be the very men we need, surely ?

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I couldn't think of a group of people more suited to the task tbh.

There is an interesting article on FT.com.

It's behind a paywall so I'll quote some of it here if that's okay:

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Originally Posted by Financial Times

EU prepares for post-Brexit membership for united Ireland
European leaders are preparing to recognise the potential for a united Ireland” within the EU, confirming that Northern Ireland would seamlessly rejoin the bloc after Brexit in the event of a vote for Irish reunification.

In a step that may stoke concerns in Britain that Brexit could hasten the fragmentation of the UK, diplomats are planning to ask leaders of the EU’s 27 post-Brexit member countries to endorse the idea in a summit on Saturday.

It would allow the province to follow the example of German reunification in 1990 and reflect the terms of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which ended decades of sectarian violence in Northern Ireland...

...No final decision has been taken on a specific text on Irish unity. It would be part of accompanying documents to the guidelines for Saturday’s summit, because it is seen as a clarification of law rather than something to be negotiated in Europe’s talks with Britain.

Officials warned that a reference to the idea could still be excluded because of the acute sensitivity around independence questions in Scotland and Catalonia in Spain.

EU27 ambassadors were first told of the plan at a meeting on Wednesday but Donald Tusk, European Council president, has yet to share a text, which was suggested by Dublin.

Enda Kenny has pushed for a “united Ireland” reference in the final Brexit treaty that will confirm the UK’s exit, but an EU statement at the outset of talks would be seen as a diplomatic coup as he prepares to step down as taoiseach — prime minister — after six years.

Advocates of the reference to Northern Ireland and reunification say the reference simply reflects the Good Friday pact, signed long before Brexit was anticipated. But it would still send a powerful signal at a sensitive moment in the politics of the island...

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https://www.ft.com/content/f4c720b0-...b-5528796fe35c

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Does it make me a bad Irishman if I would welcome a United Ireland more for the opportunity it would bring to tear down and rebuild the rotten political system in the Republic than anything to do with nationalism and territorial integrity?

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Just on that note...: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7703141.html

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Originally Posted by Will Worley

A mass uprising against the Irish government would be joined by more than half of young people in the country, a survey has indicated.

Fifty four per cent of 18 - 34-year-olds said they would take part in a “large scale uprising against the generation in power if it happened in the next days or months”.

The survey polled nearly 20,000 people in Ireland as part of the European Broadcasting Union’s Generation What? research.

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I wonder how the people making/responding to that survey defined "uprising".

Edit: Just saw this on the news: http://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0...nited-ireland/

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just on that note...: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7703141.html

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It's absolute tosh.

AS if the youth of today are "persecuted".

They are being ridden by the generation that came before us though.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

I wonder how the people making/responding to that survey defined "uprising".

Edit: Just saw this on the news: http://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0...nited-ireland/

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Some very strong language in there. I think Enda and Co have played a blinder on this issue.

Brian Walker on Slugger O'Toole feels that the EU's declaration on a future accommodation of Irish unity further isolates a weakened UK, but may also lead to unionism being less willing to co-operate with the south: https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/04/28...ish-isolation/

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Originally Posted by Brian Walker

[The EU declaration makes unity a little more attractive by eliminating the possibility of a renegotiation of EU membership is] no more than a statement of the obvious that the British government is on its own when it comes to defending Theresa May’s "precious, precious Union". Under different circumstances the EU would have been more circumspect about the prospect of Irish unity due to the EU principle of actively defending the territorial integrity of member states. But now that the UK is leaving the EU that principle no longer applies with the same force, provided consent for Irish unity is given.

While the EU is not saying they actively support Irish unity post Brexit, their declaration leaves the UK more isolated and it could make unionists more reluctant to cooperate with the south on a practical basis.

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Some interesting comments:

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Originally Posted by Karl

The english electorate voted out of the EU for 10 billion a year. Remind me how much it takes them to keep NI afloat?

English nationalsim will be the force that brings unionism to Dublin, not SF, demographics or 50% +1

With Brexit about to become a financial clusterf**k how long more will NI be indulged by a country who will look at their income and expenditure and decide where to cuts its cloth and the priorities for its dwindling resources.

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This one is similarly complimentary of Enda Kenny:

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Originally Posted by Conchúr Ó Conghaile

In fairness to Enda Kenny he and his Foreign Policy team have played a blinder on this. They've managed to harness the goodwill generated towards Ireland in Europe since the crash, by Ireland being good Europeans throughout the bailout in order to shape the European approach to Brexit to suit Ireland and its interests. It shows that if you play the European game right it can pay real dividends to smaller countries. This is something that the British never realised they were never comfortable playing away on the European pitch so they decided to take their ball and go home.

This will be a real factor whenever we have a border poll. It's going to be a simple question.
Do you want to be a very small part of an isolated UK? Or do you want to be a large part of a United Ireland that's part of the EU?
There's now a real geopolitical aspect to the constitutional question and I really don't think that Unionism will be able to cope with that. Circling the wagons won't work with Farmers looking for EU payments and Business community looking for access to FDI and the European markets.

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As much as a I fully agree with the statement as it pertains to the north and would compliment the government on pushing for it, the idea that it came about because we were "good Europeans" during the crash and after makes my skin crawl a little.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just on that note...: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7703141.html

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Yeah I'd also be curious how they defined a "mass uprising". I'd wouldn't pick up a gun or even throw a stone, but if there were thousands marching in the streets or even a campaign of civil disobedience, yeah, I'd probably join that.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

As much as a I fully agree with the statement as it pertains to the north and would compliment the government on pushing for it, the idea that it came about because we were "good Europeans" during the crash and after makes my skin crawl a little.

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Heh, I hear you. It's not the most pleasant of thoughts and I'd personally be hesitant to heap too much praise upon Enda, but I thought it an interesting interpretation of developments, or perhaps realpolitik even, in the broader context nonetheless.

I'm assuming Walker is arguing that the declaration "could make unionists more reluctant to cooperate with the south on a practical basis" because he feels they'll fear such future co-operation would only further weaken the union with Britain and strengthen the case for Irish unity. Considering political unionism represents a minority now, with those unionists who'd be actively hostile or antagonistic towards the south representing fewer numbers, they'll be paddling against the tide. Nationalism and the non-designated middle-ground ("Other") - now representative of greater numbers - will be pushing for enhanced co-operation.

This though: "...could make unionists more reluctant to cooperate with the south on a practical basis."

The very nature and existence of Unionism is predicated on a concept of non-cooperation. The middle ground will grow and the likes of Campbell, McCausland and Poots will be left behind. Thankfully.

The Daily Mail's rational and considered take on the situation:

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Originally Posted by The Daily Mail

European leaders plot to UNITE IRELAND with a referendum and keep Ulster in the EU as Tusk warns border issue MUST be settled before Brexit trade talks begin

- EU set to state that Northern Ireland would be welcome in bloc if it unites with the Republic
- Northern Ireland voted 55.8 per cent to remain in the EU in last year's referendum
- The move reflects deal offered to East Germany after the fall of the Berlin Wall
- But support for united Ireland is cool, with only 22 per cent keen for reunification

EU leaders are set to pave the way for a united Ireland by declaring that it could automatically stay in the bloc.
The hugely controversial issue will be raised at a crucial Brussels summit this weekend, where leaders will agree their Brexit negotiating demands.
They are expected to approve a text making clear that Northern Ireland will be welcomed into the club if it merges with the Republic.
The move emerged as European Council President Donald Tusk issued a warning that Theresa May will have to settle issues around Ulster's future before talks on a Brexit trade deal can begin...


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4fY4zGcJj

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Jeffrey Donaldson was of course measured in his response: " 'no chance' Northern Ireland would want to abandon the UK and join a 'struggling' EU."
"'None of this changes the reality that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and I believe it is likely to do so in the lifetime of every single person alive today.
'What the EU is doing is little more than clarifying a legal position. No person in their right mind would want to give up British citizenship to join an organisation that is seriously struggling.
'This is no more than the Irish government trying to lay down a marker that there wouldn't be a problem.
'There is more chance of the Irish Republic wanting to rejoin the UK... given its huge dependence on the UK for trade.'"

My take is that today had nothing at all to do with Ireland.

The precident of Germany is as obvious as getting hit by a brick. Today was about putting Scotland and Catalonia off.

I'd like if possible to bring this back around to the issue of partition and the huge damage it does to our society. This week in the north we have had controversy over the potential closure of Daisy Hill Hospital in Newry. It seems ludicrously obvious to me that there should be an acute regional hospital in Dundalk to cover the people of Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda and surrounding areas. Yet people in Newry having a heart attack are to be carted off the Portadown.

This is crazy. This is directly because of partition. Partition is crazy.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

My take is that today had nothing at all to do with Ireland.

The precident of Germany is as obvious as getting hit by a brick. Today was about putting Scotland and Catalonia off.

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In that the message to Scottish and Catalan separatists is that the north of Ireland will only be accommodated with continued EU membership because it would be uniting with a present member state rather than going independent alone? Why would today necessarily set a precedent for the Scottish and Catalan situations considering those situations aren't really analogous to our situation at all? And isn't the EU sympathetic to the soon-to-be-marooned Scots?

The EU has always given the tit to the mouth screaming the loudest. Ireland want it made clear that Northern Ireland should be able to rejoin the rest of the island in the EU without any paperwork or bull****, and Spain want it made clear that Scotland can't. And that is exactly what has happened.

No European nation with a reasonable economy and human rights record has ever been told no as far as i am aware, but it seems obvious that Spain would want to pull up the drawbridge in the event of a Scottish application to rejoin. But for that the Scots would have been given a much better reception imho.

Obviously, as far as a fearful Spain is concerned, accommodation of Scotland by way of assuring Scots a smooth or seamless transition back into the EU bloc would only give encouragement to Catalan separatists, but when was it made clear that Scotland would have great difficulty re-joining the bloc? Was that clarified yesterday/today? Hasn't there been a bit of ambiguity and confusion over that since Scotland's independence debate began with most pronouncements from those in the know making clear that Scotland would have to re-apply but that this really shouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle?

This STV piece from the 20th of February claims that "[a]n independent Scotland could be "fast tracked" to full European Union membership by 2023, according to two academics".

This Guardian piece from the 14th of March states:

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Rankin and Severin Carrell

An independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU, a senior official in Brussels has said, complicating Nicola Sturgeon’s plans for a second independence referendum.

A European commission spokesman indicated that any newly independent country would have to negotiate to join, referring to the position adopted by the former commission president José Manuel Barroso [in 2012].

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That reiterated position of Barroso was first set out in 2012.

Meanwhile, this New Statesman piece from the 29th of March argues that this notion of possible Scottish difficulty in the future is a pretence:

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Originally Posted by Julia Rampen

"But Spain", is the common response to a discussion of whether, by voting for independence, Scotland could effectively reverse Brexit. "Disaster for Sturgeon as Spain BACKS May over plans to block Scottish independence vote," declared the Brexiteer's favourite, The Express, this month. Spain, according to this narrative, would unilaterally puncture the SNP's bubble by vetoing readmission to the EU. An independent Scotland would be cast adrift into the North Sea.

I just don't buy it. I have put this question to everyone from former EU member state ambassadors to the former World Trade Organisation head and the answer has been the same: "It can be managed."

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What has effectively or substantively changed as of yesterday or today, as far as Scotland's potential future route back into the EU (if it decides to leave the UK) is concerned?

For what it's worth, the EU27 unanimously approved the draft negotiating guidelines for Brexit talks with UK within 15 minutes today.