Says it all when this is listed as an upside of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Says it all when this is listed as an upside of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
will people claim that was because the players decided not to listen to the manager now?
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
I am genuinely amazed that so many posters are talking about "an improved performance" "clearly the better side" etc. Just demonstrates to me how blinkered we fans can be when we don't want to see our team's shortcomings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
Nearly as "blinkered" as fans wanting Trap sacked because we should be doing so much better with the players we have
Regarding the keepers red card, i don't think it was a poor decision to send him off given the way the keeper came out, hands in the air etc. Had he kept his hand down by his side once he left the box maybe the keeper'd have a case to be disappointed.
I haven't said that about Trap anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4Ever
Its clear we're not blessed with great players, but all of them play in good leagues for decent teams, so you would assume they are capable of passing the ball to each other, but you wouldn't know it on the evidence of last night. Every time our keeper or defence got the ball it was clattered up field for Doyle to try and win it in the air. If we know anything about international football, it's this - if you try that against even moderately good opposition, you lose. Who's responsible for this approach? Do you think the players decide that, or do you think they are instructed to do that? Genuine question.
I largely agree. He was asking for trouble even if he was lucky that Cox hadn't executed the lob properly. I still think it looked clearcut in real time that it came off his chest though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
Also... As well as Cox played... I don't think he done as much to ram the decision to select him down the throat of those who raised eyebrows when he was selected ahead of Long (and arguably Walters based on Club form).
I think it was a case of he didn't dissapoint.
It clearly was an improved performance on Russia away, Andorra away, Slovakia at home and the Croatia friendly though. I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise. I acknowledged that we still weren't great. Like it or not though, the Trap plan is to sit on our leads and not press home the advantage - in that context, being able to pass it about like we did last night - for the first time that I remember - is a positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
I've also no problems saying that we were clearly the better side. We made most of the running during the first half while successfully nullifying a potentially threatening Armenia side, who barely threatened at all.
(Also, Murfinator selectively quoted me somewhat - my point was specifically about playing keep-ball after going 2-0 up, which has been a major failing in recent games)
Definitely agree with PS. Compared to some of the muck we've seen in the last couple of months, last night was much better. I think we were a lot more comfortable than what the scoreline suggests against a dangerous Armenian side. We made it typically difficult but we were the better side by a huge distance in the second half, even at 10 v 10. And in the first half we created the best chances even before their keeper was sent off.
We don't keep possession well. That's reality. I still saw far more last night to be positive about than I've seen in some time.
Sounds weird to me. I thought he was excellent. Nearly all our best chances, not to mention the sending off, came directly through his endeavour. Fully justified his selection imo. He certainly did more than simply 'didn't disappoint'.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
Trap doesn't get em all right be a long shot but think he can feel satisfied about Cox and Walters over Long in this situation.
He played well. All things considered though, if it were up to me, I don't think it was enough to warrant a definitive starting place in the next game if all our forward options were fit and available. If it was a straight choice between him and Long for the next game I'd still opt for Long.
Long has in the recent past played better against better defenders.
Lads, was it not Whelan who lost the man for the Armenia goal? Was needlessly sucked towards the ball leaving the space for the pass.
Also has anyone blamed "the system" for Doyle's sending off? Trap should have taken him off as soon as he was booked the first time. It was hugely undisciplined and he should have been punished by being substituted.
Can't tell a lot from a photo in fairness. You can see it better here (particularly the second replay) -
Clearly the wrong decision twice over, I think. Ref was a long way behind play. And in fairness, the ref had a very good game in general.
I think they were both definite handballs. The keeper clearly came out with the intention of handling it if it didn't hit his chest and I think it did catch him on the shoulder/armpit area.
What his intention was doesn't matter. And in any event, he could have come out arms up with the intention of psyching Cox too. It's hard to tell for sure, but it does look like the ball hits him in the upper chest. But as you say, it should have been moot had the handball been given against Cox.
The direction the ball goes tells you that it was two handballs. The only way Cox could of controlled it was with his arm, his chest wouldn't of taken it down like that.
And after the it hits the keepers chest, it clearly hits his arm as the ball starts moving down the way rather than bouncing up off his chest as it would of from Coxys lob.
Well it matters if it hit him on the arm. If he has his arms in the air and it hits his shoulder, it's a foul. If his arms are by his side and it hits his shoulder, no foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Sorry; I read that you were saying that regardless of whether it hit him on the arm or not, his intention made it handball.
It was impossible for ref to spot the Cox handball & it was a lot less blatant than Van see Vaart's the other week. I'm not even sure if it was deliberate by Cox.
I'm still undecided about the gk one. I can see why the ref gave the decision when you see it from his angle. Refs are never gonna be 100% about decisions (there must always be some doubt in the back of their mind).
Doyle will be out, Long would be the likely lad to start with Cox.
Regards our 'passing game'. I thought that period demonstrated why we don't play a passing game, it was awkward, square stuff.
Armenia dropped off, as they usually do when they bide their time for periods in a game. We hadn't forced them back with our ball retention skills.
That's the period of play when Skrtel said you have to taker your chances.
Our full backs could then move up the field a bit.
I think at least you need a technical central midfielder in the mix, to make it work for us. Fahey is the only player who could do that.
Drop McGeady for Fahey, keep the two grafters at CM?
Otherwise we need to move the ball fast and look for the break from the hoof ball or from the wingers.
The football culture in Ireland is traditionally non-technical, it was not invented by Trap and imposed upon the senior team.
Who said we were forcing them back? The point is that without the ball, they won't score, and that seems to be all Trap cares about once we're in the lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Were we not in the lead when we were passing the ball around last night?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The point I made is that we can do that when the other team deliberately backs off. We have a very limited choice of players to impose that type of game or make it effective when the other team backs off. We are more effective looking for breaks from the hoof or from the wingers.
I made my journalistic debut last night so excuse my pride while i give it a plug....!
http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=5133
I thought Andrews' passing was very good for the 15 or minutes or so in the second half that we looked like a proper football team. We played some nice incisive stuff on the edge of their box too. Fahey would have been an improvement though.
I don't think Cox's was deliberate and I mean that wholly objectively. Doesn't mean it wasn't handball though.
Yes it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I actually think we missed Gibson last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
You know the rules better than I do probably, but if the ref had seen it he'd have called it as a foul. Cox wouldn't have objected much I'm sure, yet at no point did Cox think about bringing the ball down with his hand, I reckon. You regularly see players trying to bring a ball down with their chest but catching it with their upper arm instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by fionnsci
Most fouls aren't intentional either, doesn't mean they're not fouls. Handball may be worded differently, but the principle as it tends to be applied is the same.
Yeah, you're right, we often see handballs awarded that aren't necessarily "intentional" as the laws demand but are still rarely disputed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I completely forgot about Darron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Due to been on a flight halfway round the world, I missed the game and am only catching up now.
On the face of it, a great result and also seeded.
Yes once again we were not assured, good to watch etc but you know what under trap by and large we are getting the results. Some people Ala duñphy and co will never be happy and think we should top the group.
Reality is that we don't have a strong group of players but we are organised and v difficult to beat. The only game where we have been 'found out under trap was the Russia home game I'd recommend that ye read this months world soccer may, they have a very interesting piece on the tactics we employ.
Looking forward to the draw now, having the second leg at home gives us fans a big part to play but I do hope we score an away goal, one one would be great to bring back to the a viva.
Etonia are the obvious preference with Montenegro after that. Bosnia would be who I'd most want to avoid, too many quality players
What was the difference between the 2 incidents of handball by the Armenian goalkeepers?
Why was one a straight red and the other just a yellow?
If intent was the difference, I don't think the goalie intended to end up outside his box for the first red card. And he was quite entitled to have his hands up in the air before his body crossed the white line.
I thought Andrews was one of our best players last night. Thought we played better football at times than we did in whole campaign. McGeady drives me mad but put that great ball in for Dunne's goal (only thing he did all night).
I would start him but bring Hunt on earlier.
The first denied us a clear goalscoring chance, I assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The keeper clearly has his hands down as he's leaving the box, and only raises them when Cox shoots (and when he's three or four yards outside the box)Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
One was denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, the other was at the side of the box. Imagine if the keeper had tripped the Irish player rather than handling it.
I can't really believe that anyone would argue the red card as not being a deliberate handball. Look at defenders in the Champions League, when jumping to block shots they almost always put their arms behind their backs, just to clearly show no intent to handball. You'd never see a defender blocking a shot jumping while throwing his arms up in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I thought we missed Paul Butler and Joe Lapira too.
Glad to see some fairly positive comments here. Sick of arguing with people about how 'muck' we are supposed to be. As Geysir said - Irish football has always been of the non technical variety. The much referenced Paris performance is the only good passing game I have seen us play in about 21 years of watching us
(open to correction here of course).
Armenoa had a great passing and movement for about half the first half and sporadically in the 2nd amongst their front few players. We are inferior to that no doubt. What they also have is a keeper who sold the jersey by rushing out arms up and getting sent off, a defender poking it home for an OG under no pressure and a central def that were bullied all over the place by Cox and Doyle.
Never felt the panic I expected to feel during this game. Armenia were on top early on but we soon settled and deserved the win. End of. There are more ways to win at football than by doing the Xavi and Messi job right through the centre of a defence. The hoof up to Doyle worked., no harm in exploiting it.
Little bit harsh - the 2-2 in Amsterdam in 2000 was sublime for the most part. A couple of McCarthy's other games were like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We played a really good attacking game against Yugoslavia at home in the Euro 2000 qualifiers. Probably the best performance I've ever seen by an Irish team.