Well then the club should present a proposal to the LEDP to jointly-fund a bar that could work for both parties.
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Well then the club should present a proposal to the LEDP to jointly-fund a bar that could work for both parties.
LEDP have said there will never be a bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
For what reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhitearmy
As far as i know they didn't really give one just said that there will never be one in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Presumably somebody asked them why.
They did and i was told the reply was basically there wont be because there wont be they didn't explain why.They have said that drink will be available from trucks that are brought in on match night (it wont). Going by the public meeting they had actually explaining things is not the LEDPs biggest strength. The clubs Official Supporters Club put up a post about the meeting they had with them on facebook but they didn't really say any of the answers they had been given for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
There was some excuse given that the council rates would be really high if a bar and shop were to be in the ground which I find hard to believe.
Well then Lims and their fans need to push them harder on that. If they've not given a reason, that's not acceptable especially as Lims will be paying rent for the use of what they expect to be an attractive stadium and a bar is one way of getting people through the gates. As far as I know, a member's bar wouldn't incur the same rates as a public house.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhitearmy
Dear Bluewhitearmy I don’t understand why you feel you have to personalise all your comments. “All of these people” as you call them are also fans of Limerick Soccer and as such are just as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. I for one, am a realist and I understand how hard it is to raise a million euro from government in this day and age. I wrote an 1100 word list of valid points which you chose to ignore. The precedent is there for teams to move to bigger grounds for bigger matches Leinster rugby take their bigger matches to the Aviva and they too are licensees of the RDS. Why would anyone want the holding cost of seats that may only be filled once every couple of years at best? Not to talk of what it would do for the atmosphere in the ground. How do you know that the stands won’t cover all the seats? I presume that covered stands are just that. There are uncovered seats on front of the stands in Croke Park too. It is untrue that the club won’t be able to make money on match day. My understanding is that a license allows the club to maximise their revenue generation on the days they occupy the ground, that includes a bar if they wish (such as the Heineken bar at Munster matches) but the license will be the clubs responsibility as will all of the other costs and revenue streams. I am not privy to LEDP’s business plan for the ground but with their pedigree and track record I am sure that they are not completely dependent on Limerick FC for the ground revenues. Also bear in mind that LEDP are a charitable trust company and according to their website they are driven by community, education and business enhancement, they do not have to make money, simply to break even. And now that they have secured money from govt it simply means that they can do what they need to do without massive outlay and therein lies, I imagine, why they are not being extravagant in this phase. I hope this answers your questions of me …now would you reread my first post and address some of the points I made. Bear in mind that we are all on the same side here..only I see, in LEDP, an organisation that have taken on a project that no-one else, Limerick FC included, could or would touch and the way I see it the glass is half full not half empty and I genuinely feel this forum has not been fair to what LEDP have done even if the contributors have acknowledged JP’s role. At this stage I am done with my contributions here I have no wish to prolong an argument that is irrelevant anyway because no matter what you think or say you do not have control of what happens…my advice to you, though I doubt you will either appreciate or take it is to “pee out if the tent rather than peeing into it” and work with the owners rather than sniping at them. PS Charlie Darwin… I actually contacted LEDP and asked them about the bar and they made a very relevant point that if they carried out any commercial activity in the ground themselves that it made them liable for very substantial rates which would add to the holding cost of the ground substantially, they were most accommodating of any question that I asked them
From reading through a lot of the discussion again, it's obvious to me that very few people have actually looked at the plans -- and not just those who are berating some Limerick fans for complaining about them.
Once more, here is the link to the application for planning permission:
http://www.limerickcity.ie/ePlan/Fil...141&LASiteID=0
You can view all the drawings there.
Anyone who has looked at that page over the last week and a half may have noticed that a decision was made on 19 december with 10 conditions. The conditions haven't been published yet, but probably will be in the coming days (or maybe 8 january -- I'm not exactly sure how that part of the process works).
The crux of the issue for fans is that there has been no consultation with them about the development. Fans can give valuable input regarding design elements based on their experiences of football grounds around the league and further afield. Also, among the broad fan base, there is some expertise in engineering, design, agronomy, etc, that may have proven valuable in an open consultation process.
But the consultation process only began after the application for planning permission was submitted.
The level of consultation with the board of the club is not clear. But, apart from the vague letter of support included in the planning application, the club seems to have been very aloof from the whole process.
And the issue of the away section is not merely an issue for away fans. That section of the ground, because it will contain a covered seated area, would be very important if Limerick FC was to hold any friendly matches at the Markets Field.
There is a lot of confusion regarding the development of the ground, with quite a few people I have spoken to about this thinking that the development is based on a variation of one of the sets of previously published plans (those commissioned either by Pat O'Sullivan or by the FAI). As most people who have taken part in the discussion here know, this is not the case!
If -- presuming the 10 conditions being imposed don't drastically alter things -- the current plans are implemented I believe the ability to further enhance the ground in future phases of development will be greatly restricted.
Another issue for the project is the FAI Club Licence process. It's not guaranteed that the Markets Field would be approved for Premier Division football based on the current proposals. While people may point out that United Park is sub-standard, at least Dogheda United are trying to get out of there and into a new ground. Anyway, some facilities at United Park are superior to what is being proposed for the Markets Field. Every other ground in the Premier Division (and many in the First Division) would be substantially better than it.
The issue of Keith Wood as project manager/co-ordinator is not really a big issue. To the best of my knowledge, he holds no formal qualifications in the construction sector. However, if he has a strong team which includes expertise in engineering, design, agronomy, business planning, etc, and his role is merely to bring all this expertise together into a coherent working unit, then depending on the budget available for the project that might be ok.
The reason why some people might be having a go at him is because of a perceived rugby bias in the current design. Because of the extra width required to fit in a full size rugby pitch -- and because the site is not rectangular -- the scope for further development on the Popular Side and the City End is severely restricted.
And you got all this information from the LEDP website and the Limerick Leader? ;) good man yourself. Happy new year to you and all at the LEDP.Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1
Am I missing something here?
Somebody gives MF to LEDP for FREE so they can redevelop the ground as a HOME for Limerick FC as well as other organisations using the ground also.
LEDP also given e1.1m by Government to develop MF.
LEDP submit plans for a ground which would have one of the SMALLEST capacities in the LOI andNo bar.
Limerick FC would have use of the ground for ONLY 20 days a year.
Limerick FC will have to pay rent for basic facilities with little way of making money besides match tickets.
If Limerick FC have a big game ie Fai Cup Semifinal, big league game or Friendly the game would have to be moved to another ground IF OTHER GROUND IS AVAILABLE..
The new facilities would be fine for LEDP but would do nothing to attract new Fans For Limerick FC.
So we should all be grateful to LEDP for letting us rent a ground they got for free and got e1.1m towards the Development.
Also to Llimerickmurf1 I'd love to know who at LEDP answered all you questions because any questions I asked I never got a proper answer just the same 'the funding is not there' line. Also LMURF1 I said it was a waste giving the ground to LEDP, not because of what you think (the fans would be redeveloping the MF??) I was suggesting LFC could have developed MF. Also I just agree with ONE point you make about the majority of limerick people being supportive of the development of MF, why wouldn't they, until the see this so called stadium in the flesh then thy will think WTF!!! When will this place be finished.
nobody really knows what is happening at the minute with the markets field so dont panic and be at each others throats.who cares about a bloody bar,i have a drink but you dont need alcohol to enjoy a football match.i dont think pat o sullivan and co would be that naive to lead the club into something dodgey,they have done great stuff so far.positive thoughts for 2014 lads.all we need now is a few more players.a lot of the so called soccer fans around only support english teams and wont give the irish league a chance,so no matter what they wont come and support any team.
Planning permission has been granted, although the 10 conditions haven't been made public yet (they will probably be published in the coming days). And now that the LEDP have confirmed they have secured the necessary funding, presumably they will be proceeding with the development as planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by delboyderis
Revenue from a bar would alleviate some of the dependency on money from Pat O'Sullivan's businesses and life savings.Quote:
Originally Posted by delboyderis
Having a bar or function room would allow the club to do other things, e.g. post-match meals for teams, host VIP guests, sponsors, etc, hold social events in the off season and other non-match events.
If Limerick FC or the Official Supporters' Club is prevented from establishing a private members' club with a bar and function room at the ground, then I think they will have to seek out some other location to do so. Bruff is obviously not a realistic option for this.
This is about helping the club become more sustainable into the future.
The club has been remarkably quiet on the issue. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the statement on the club website seems very nuanced in its message! (There's no date on that statement, and I can't remember when it was posted.)Quote:
Originally Posted by delboyderis
Sorry for picking on your post, delboyderis, but your points were more concise than some of the other ramblings (although, admittedly, I can ramble on myself at times!).
That statement came out on the 13th of December.
Rem back to the pos presentation in thomond of his stadium plan. The cost of phase one for 3500 seats was 1.6 million. With the ledp 400k and 1.1 which has suddenly become available from a government quango it means 1.5 million for a 3000 capacity.....could they have not stuck to his plan
At the end of the day lads beggars cant's be choosers and beggars is exactly what we are. It takes serious money to lay a playing surface and get the MF capable of catering for Premier division football even at the admittedly small scale developments proposed. People need to get real and accept that a ground with a 3k capacity is plenty big enough for Limerick FC. In an ideal world a bar would be a good money making project but how feasible would it be lads? What would the turnover be. how profitable would it be etc...All the naysayers on here are great to spout on about the LEDP charging Limerick FC rent on the MF. Realistically how can the LEDP look for anything other that a token gesture. Do ye think JP and the LEDP got in to this to make money out the money spinning franchise that is Limerick senior soccer??? Ye are all great to shoot people down for not agreeing with yer negativity towards the MF but none of ye has offered even one ALTERNATIVE to the MF move?????
So, we pay a sizable rent to Thomond Park, but the LEDP will be happy for a "token gesture"? Come on man, that is complete fantasy.
3K is more than big enough, unless its a big game, when its back to Thomond, which we'll pay handsomely for.
I'm fully confident a bar would be profitable. We'll never know under these plans of course. It's such a basic idea, but the LEDP isn't interested.
But, we're going completely in circles here. We keep telling you we just want these basic additions to the plans to improve the standing of the club and you keep going "but what are the alternatives, what are the alternatives, what are the alternatives?". The alternative is that the thing is done correctly now. That is the alternative. I think you're fishing for one of us to say we should stay in Jackman or something, but you know what? Replace the Jackman hills with some terraces, and it isn't that far off what the MF is going to be. Limerick fans didn't want that.
And if the LEDP is treating us like beggars, maybe its because of the attitude of people like you, who are content to act as such. The Market's Field can be improved, to the benefit of both the club and the LEDP, without a gigantic amount of extra investment. Acting otherwise is paving the way for a future weakening of Limerick FC.
Well, I never expected those plans to come to exact fruition, just a bit over-ambitious in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by gael353
I only noticed this post now. Rds, aviva, leinster, croke park. :) great try against england in fairnessQuote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1
Seems to be talking a bit of sense here,we have to be realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1
I honestly think we are trying to be realistic and look "long term" for the club and not just be content now and cause problems further down the line. A lot of te problems the club have had in the past is because of short term out looks. It's only been in recent years the club has started looking to the long term future. I and most certainly don't think they should have just built the plans Pat O Sullivan had but there surely was a happy medium between both plans and not a complete scaling back to absolute basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchie
It's down to realism lads.we need a home and we need it quickly. Some of ye are very quick to say that we'll be charged rent similar to what is being charged for the use of thomond park when ye have actually nothing to back this up with. Admittedly I have no evidence to prove that it will be alot less but all logic would suggest that it will be.for godsake there's a fair bit of difference renting a state of the art 26000 capacity stadium off a massive business franchise like Munster rugby than renting the MF off a non for profit organisation. The reality is we don't have a big fan base and the design suggested will comfortably cater for Limerick FC. I for one am sick of looking at nice shiny empty seats so a compact reasonably full ground with an intimidating atmosphere for away teams and supporters will do me just fine even if I do have to forego my half time burger and warm pint of beer from a plastic glass which has made TP so attractive to a lot of ye.
I was saying that above in a previous comment though that we need to hear the figures, we need to know what kind of savings will be made. The fans are being left too much in the dark which is causing this argument to ramble on and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by LFC Blue
There is surely some avenue open to the supporters club to get these kind of figures from the club and as you say this would help alleviate alot of speculation and uncertainty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jofspring
Lads if any of ye can get into the markets field can ye take a few pics of the pitch and the work in general that's going on. I know there's a few who scale the wall ha.
Firstly and i don't mean this as some sort of personal attack but could you spread your comments out a bit its very hard to read. I did read your entire fist post and ill go back and answer that after i answer what you have asked in this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1
I don't believe that people that are more then happy to ignore the fact that moving to this ground could kill the club can be considered fans of Limerick if i'm honest. Everyone is entitled to an opinion obviously but id rather people make some points rather then just come on giving it the whole stop moaning its all great with no reasoning for it.
There is no comparison at all between us and Leinster, Leinster can afford to do it us having to move a bigger game to Thomond could potentially wipe out any profit we would make from the increased crowd. Also how can anywhere be considered "home" when you have to move for a bigger game?
If Limerick were successful and were challenging for a league would a home crowd of 3-3500 regularly that season be unrealistic? As for the atmosphere of the ground what will have 3 sides of the ground completely open do for atmosphere?
I know the stands don't cover the seats because i have seen the plans and i have asked the LEDP lads at the public meeting.
The club will not be able to make money from the sale of drink on match days unless there is a bar put in. It costs money to bring in portable bars you don't make money from it. I have no idea what you are talking about with regards the licence.
Yes the LEDP only need to break even but its not a tiny amount of money they need to break even on this project. Without trying to be disrespectful to them what have the LEDP actually done? JP McManus and the Government have put the money in. You say it was a project Limerick would not take on i'm fairly sure if JP and the government had offered to give Limerick that money and put them in charge of things in the way the LEDP have then they would have done it. I could be missing something that the LEDP have done like so i would like that bit explained.
There is no way at all i could work with the owners the owners don't seem to have worked with anyone. People seem to think that the problem some of us have is that the ground doesn't look pretty or something or that we wanted some state of the art ground. We didn't what we wanted was somewhere that would help to secure the future of the club after Pat O'Sullivan leaves we didn't get that. It would take a small few changes that would go a long way to ensure we still have a club in the long term is it not understandable that we would want that? All the talk was that the Markets Field was bought to secure the future of Limerick and give them a home this hasn't happened.
On the high rates for a bar in the ground I find that hard to believe purely because there is no way all the bars in clubhouses around limerick and the country are paying massive rates. If they were it wouldn't be feasible for any club to sustain a bar. Garryowen, Shannon, Young Munster, Janesboro, Pike, Fairview, are they all paying huge comercial rates?
Now as you asked i will answer this.Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1;1729260 [B
I dont see what relevance what they have done on the southside has to the quality of the Markets Field plans? JP McManus has pumped massive money into the pitch and everyone has been massively grateful for his role in the Markets Field. Where have they been vilified? People have said the plans are not good enough that is not vilifying the LEDP.
I will gladly tell you my name if you would like? Although myself and a few other of the posters on here that i know have already spoke of our problems with the ground in public. There is no-one here to "hide" this is just the best place available to discuss Limerick FC. Also why not give your own name then if you are against people hiding.
A lot of what you have said in this post has nothing at all to do with what is being discussed the bits in bold for example. If they have anything to do with the Markets Field and i have missed it please explain how? Some of the bits in bold are just nonsense though.
I think one person said it would be the fourth best ground. I also think that it is a valid point and id like to know your reasoning behind thinking it is not valid. Again in this part you show you don't really understand what the issues people have are. Bit more nonsense about Santa thrown in too. When did the VEC have plans to buy it and develop it have you a link to this? More nonsense about JP handing it to the supporters.
People have every right to point out things that are not good enough. You say you are a fan of Limerick soccer but then say [COLOR=#333333]the bit in bold there so you are not a fan of Limerick FC i take it? Some of the options you go on to give that could use the ground then are laughable. The wider Limerick public will see it as a great thing because the wider Limerick public do not know or care about Limerick FCs long term future. You say it is the biggest development ever in Limerick soccer surely then thats all the more reason it should be done right?
People are not being negative for the sake of being negative they are pointing out things they feel should be changed. The best playing surface in Munster is some kind of joke yes? Lifting the financial burden of Thomond? Its not free to use the Markets Field you know. You keep talking as is if this was some big plan about the LEDP and it was all their idea it wasn't JP McManus bought the ground and gave it to them along with the money to develop it. Please explain to me what the LEDP has done other then spend JPs money?
Again you say Limerick soccer and "their" supporters i thought you were a supporter of Limerick soccer? You say you have no knowledge of who the LEDP are i'm going to be honest here i don't believe you. Now you said i ignored the points you made in this comment i didn't i read it the first time but any point you have made had already been answered and an awful lot of this post is complete nonsense. [/COLOR]
Had a look at the plans and they're pure crap, plain and simple. It doesn't matter who this ground is intended for, they're not good enough for a 'stadium' that, according to the LEDP website, will be the jewel in the crown of the inner cities sporting facilities.
Two steps of uncovered terrace at one side of the ground, a couple of steps at the town end about half a mile away from the pitch, please get real.
Who else is going to use this ground? If the LEDP is so community orientated why is the local team only allowed to use it 20 odd times a year? Why can't the ladies and the U19 teams play there?
Is the rent that Limerick FC pay for the use, going to be used for the cost of opening the ground on the days schools rugby or rugby league is to be played there?
The facilities at the AIL grounds that the schools rugby use is as good as what is planned for this ground, with the added advantage of being able to park inside the ground, so why would they bother moving games to the markets?
I think the point of the comment about the 4th best stadium in munster is the fact that they're constructing a NEW facility that won't be up to the standard of grounds that were built/renovated donkeys years ago. Jesus where's the ambition, instead of like everything else in this town " ah shur that'll do 'em" attitude. If we keep telling everyone its the jewel in the crown enough times maybe they'll start to believe it after a while.
Quick question, Does anyone know if they're replacing the roof on the exixting stand with a roof that covers both the renovated stand and the newly constructed stand beside it, or will each stand have its own separate roof? I can't tell from the plans.
LFC Blue At the end of the day lads beggars cant's be choosers and beggars is exactly what we are.
In comparison to the politically backed and milionaire backed LEDP maybe but we aint beggers
LFC Blue It takes serious money to lay a playing surface and get the MF capable of catering for Premier division football even at the admittedly small scale developments proposed. People need to get real and accept that a ground with a 3k capacity is plenty big enough for Limerick FC.
It takes a fair bit of money all right but if your a professional ambitious club this is the minimum required. 3k capacity with 2/3 in the cold and ****ing rain is not adequate for any fans let alone Limerick FC. Any success, ambition to succeed and this capacity is null and void.
LFC Blue In an ideal world a bar would be a good money making project but how feasible would it be lads?
Look nothing against you but your not too well up on the running of a club and where revenue generates from. The so called ideal world exists in most LOI grounds, rugby clubs, rowing, tennis, cricket, GAA and more. And i think what a lot of ppl were saying on here is that it was a members bar not a general pub that they were looking for
LFC Blue What would the turnover be. how profitable would it be etc...All the naysayers on here are great to spout on about the LEDP charging Limerick FC rent on the MF. Realistically how can the LEDP look for anything other that a token gesture. Do ye think JP and the LEDP got in to this to make money out the money spinning franchise that is Limerick senior soccer??? Ye are all great to shoot people down for not agreeing with yer negativity towards the MF but none of ye has offered even one ALTERNATIVE to the MF move?????
Again your lack of knowledge about how a football club runs and finances itself stands out. At present as has been pointed out to you by many on several occasions the alternative is going to be Thomond park for the foreseeable future. The alternative the fans are looking at is a good stadium, well planned and designed MF or a sh..it field...MF plan at present.
LFC Blue It's down to realism lads.we need a home and we need it quickly. Some of ye are very quick to say that we'll be charged rent similar to what is being charged for the use of thomond park when ye have actually nothing to back this up with. Admittedly I have no evidence to prove that it will be alot less but all logic would suggest that it will be
Lack of knowledge does not equal realism and you need to take that on board pronto. As you say you have no evidence on anything you say and thats where ppl like me come in, someone with a little more knowledge then you. I dont know everything but i know a fair bit more then you and you should refrain from making spoof general statements waffling along talking rubbish.
LFCBlue for godsake there's a fair bit of difference renting a state of the art 26000 capacity stadium off a massive business franchise like Munster rugby than renting the MF off a non for profit organization. The reality is we don't have a big fan base and the design suggested will comfortably cater for Limerick FC.
Again knowledge is king, you are correct to assume that the renting of a 26,000 capacity stadium costs more and then a field with 2/3 of it out in the open, with no bar and no shops. The big fan base amuses me, what is an acceptable fan base to you? The design planned by the ledp is maybe going to get a first division licence. It is unsuitable to all premier clubs with ambition and fact.
LFC Blue I for one am sick of looking at nice shiny empty seats so a compact reasonably full ground with an intimidating atmosphere for away teams and supporters will do me just fine even if I do have to forego my half time burger and warm pint of beer from a plastic glass which has made TP so attractive to a lot of ye.
I dont hate Thomond park, as a structure it would fail to get a eufa game, as the stands are too steep and lets face it they ran out of money and it is unfinished (the two end terraces) The intimidating atmosphere thing is baffling me. As redron states everyone should look at the plans. The pitch is quite big, and the gaps from stands to pitch are far far away. Think wexfords Ferrycarrig park. When/if we are in MF i shall buy you a pint, and a burger from two expensive Deageo trucks which will have to come from the UK every second week for our games at a cost to the club so that will require a substantial cheque.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gael353
So what is it your trying to say here Gael???
Quote:
Originally Posted by ever37
They will be seperate and the roof on the small stand will not cover the first few rows of seats unless changes are made to it.
Its worse its sounding, two stands side by side with different roofs of different sizes. I understand that a lot of money will go towards the floodlights and dressing rooms, new toilets etc. but why don't they make sure one side of the ground resembles what a modern ground looks like, instead of doing a bit of a stand here, half a terrace there,then at a later date they can tackle other sides of the ground if more funds become available. How much more money is needed to pour a few more concrete steps on the far side and cover them? Then at least then the structure is in place to maybe seat the area at a later date.
Why are they wasting money constructing a few steps of terrace behind the goals about 50m from the pitch. Nobody is ever going to stand there, nobody.
Apart from the regular core group of supporters I can't see this ground enticing anyone to come up & watch any sort of a game. It just sounds like a more concreted version of jackman park with only the supporters further away from the pitch. Disappointing.
I can only speak on behalf of my junior club and we pay both commercial and water rates. we also have vat, paye,prsi & usc to pay..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ever37
Like Gael has pointed out one phase of Pat O Sullivans plans for the ground had 3500 seats and cost 1.5 mil. The LEDP are spending the same amount of money for 1500 and a load of ridiculous uncovered terracing.
The supporters suggestion was that Limerick pay a key figure that would mean LEDP wouldn't pay the rates but that Limerick would take the profits.That was refused straight away by the LEDP Also are ye a members bar?Quote:
Originally Posted by leather
Are they extortionate leather out of interest? Number I've heard is 35,000 just for rates but that seems excessive for a bar that would only open approx 20 times a year and maybe a few more times for private functions.Quote:
Originally Posted by leather
Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickmurf1
This didn't last very long did it.
Regarding the level of rent Limerick FC should expect to pay, representatives of the LEDP said at their public meeting that the running of the stadium would be on a self-sustaining model. In other words, while they would raise the funds required for the initial redevelopment, once everything is in place the stadium will have to pay for itself.
So, given that Limerick FC will probably be the only users of the stadium during its first year, it would seem that the club would have to cover the entire running costs of the stadium for that period.
As other organisations gain access to the stadium, presumably there would be a recalculation of each organisation's share of the overall running costs on a proportional basis.
However, if the redevelopment is finished before the end of the summer, you could see the above scenario reversed. (Schools rugby might be played there before Limerick FC move in, as presumably if an agreement is made to play at Thomond Park for the 2014 season then the team will play there for the entire season.)
How will the venue be managed? Will there be a full time permanent position created for a Stadium Manager?