NI support

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow? doesn't make it commonly accepted though, does it?
and just as, strictly speaking, the northern ireland flag isn't quite official doesn't mean it's not commonly accepted as the representative flag.

you still waste time posting on technicalities and not once made a comment on the slurs said about all northern ireland fans.......depressing

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

no necessarily my brief steve, but maybe mr.p's.

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Well you said :

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Originally Posted by Lamb

if you can find me a flag thats specifically a northern ireland flag other than the one used then maybe i'll consider backing you in your quest.

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And it meets what you asked for there......

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

My only issue is that :rolleyes: if such a flag has to exist, a crown is more 'relevant', than 'the Star of David'.
Otherwise an improvement on the current b*stardised version of the Ulster flag though............

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Is it the Star of David ? There are a number of theories for what it is, and the SoD is only one.

I have heard no feasible reason why the star of David would be used per se. A more feasible idea is the one that it symbolises the 6 counties.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

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Holy fcuk Lamb - what Norn Iron do you live in ? The Stormont Ulster banner being acceptable to "the vast majority of people and institutions" ?!?! :eek:

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Originally Posted by lamb

isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow?

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You're confused with Cheshire and Welsh men there (especially given how far York is from the Scottish border !). Though it's a bit of an urban myth. Other laws have taken greater priority over that local bye-law for hundreds of years - hence why it was irrelevant whether it was actually removed or not. The UK's dependance upon case law, rather than constituional law, means there are hundreds of such ancient and quirky but irrelevant anomalies like that still in existence.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Holy fcuk Lamb - what Norn Iron do you live in ? The Stormont Ulster banner being acceptable to "the vast majority of people and institutions" ?!?! :eek:

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i didn't say acceptable, i said the flag was generally accepted as the flag singly representing northern ireland.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

there are hundreds of such ancient and quirky but irrelevant anomalies like that still in existence.

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that was my point. the anomally exists, similar to the flag not being totally official, but doesn't mean that the anomally takes precedence over all (including reality).
in the end, the only flag that represents solely northern ireland is the one that is used by fifa and uefa. it may not be to everyones taste but its the only one available at present.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow? doesn't make it commonly accepted though, does it?
and just as, strictly speaking, the northern ireland flag isn't quite official doesn't mean it's not commonly accepted as the representative flag.

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Generally accepted by the vast majority? Ah yes majority rule. Remind us again how majority rule led to that flags status being removed. I think Lamb it is time you go and do a wee bit of reading up on what flag represents to a sizable % of the people who live here.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

you still waste time posting on technicalities and not once made a comment on the slurs said about all northern ireland fans.......depressing

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Yes, lets ignore the "technicalities." I'm sure you and Gregory Campbell wouldn't mind if Fifa used the Irish tricolour then? :rolleyes:

And what are these slurs on the NI fans that I have ignored?

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

but its the only one available at present.

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No it's not. The official flag, the Union flag is available.

I think that we shouldnt just be looking to get a new anthem and flag for the team and country just to get nationalists to support to team but also to give this country a bit of identity. I have said in relation to the rugby that people shouldnt have to beg to feel identified with their country. In relation to NI matches it is NI and so an NI flag must be sought for and also a New NI anthem. afterall it isnt GB+NI playing.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

I think that we shouldnt just be looking to get a new anthem and flag for the team and country just to get nationalists to support to team but also to give this country a bit of identity. I have said in relation to the rugby that people shouldnt have to beg to feel identified with their country. In relation to NI matches it is NI and so an NI flag must be sought for and also a New NI anthem. afterall it isnt GB+NI playing.

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Before games national anthems are played, our national anthem is GSTQ so that is what should be played. Why should England be the only ones to use our national anthem?

I dont think any one of the 4 home nations should use the NA of GB + NI if we play as speratate teams we should have seperate anthems.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

I dont think any one of the 4 home nations should use the NA of GB + NI if we play as speratate teams we should have seperate anthems.

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All entitled to our opinions but my opinion is that when national anthems are played they should play our national anthem.

God, how I've come to loathe these "Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin" arguments: "My flags more official than yours, nah, nah, ne nah nah". Quite simply, it's pathetic.
Let me tell you about my matchday experience. On Saturday at Heathrow I got chatting to a guy in an NI top. An amiable sort, he was going back to his first game "in a few years". Since he was on his own, I mentioned that some of the other London-based fans would be in the Globe pub in Belfast pre-match.
Anyway, I was with my mate, Davey, when I saw this guy later in the Globe, enjoying a pint and the crack with the rest of the lads.
Subsequently, on our way to the ground, Davey commented that he'd been chatting to this guy. Turns out he was Catholic; he'd been a bit apprehensive about things, but was relaxed at how "normal" everything was i.e. nobody gave a **** about any of this old crap.
Davey found this particularly interesting. You see, he comes from your standard "Prod" background, but he hates religion (of all sorts). Further, he can't abide politics; so much so that if pushed, he'd probably vote for a United Ireland - in the hope that it might be one step closer to people catching themselves on (a United States of Europe?).
He's always been more of a rugby fan than football, and had drifted away from games at Windsor some years ago because of all the crap that used to go with it. He had agreed to go to Windsor, if I went with him to Ravenhill later that evening for Ulster v Llanelli.
Anyhow, Davey was genuinely impressed by the changes he saw. Other than a reported No Surrender by a few morons during GSTQ (which we missed, since we were late in), we heard not one single objectionable comment, chant or song of a political or sectarian nature. The Kop Stand to our right - formerly the haunt of the neanderthals - was a sea of Green and White. We saw one Union Jack - amongst hundreds of banners and flags of all sorts amongst the fans (plus a Green, White and Blue version which someone had contrived).
Later, we went to Ravenhill, which was a very different experience, since rugby tends to draw a very different crowd. There was, indeed, one slightly contentious moment. Before the match, the Announcer generously welcomed those football fans who had been at Windsor earlier that day, at which point a fan with an Ulster Provincial flag (yellow and red) ran up and down chanting "Iceland". I don't know whether this was intended as a joke or as a provocation; in fact, I couldn't care less either way.
Anyhow, Ulster played quite well - David Humphries is STILL miles better than O'Gara will ever know - and the crowd went home happy.
But when I said how this was a "different" crowd, it was not so on the basis of political or religious attitudes; rather it was one of class.
Football is rooted in the working class, whilst rugby is rooted in the middle-classes. And although I come from a middle-class background myself, indeed attended a rugby school, for all that I enjoyed myself at Ravenhill, I thought that the rugger buggers were a curiously passionless lot.
Basically, the Windsor crowd provided more backing for their team, in the midst of an embarrassment on the pitch, than their Ravenhill counterparts could manage for a stirring victory.
But you know what? The rugby guys seemed quite happy with thier lot and the football fans weren't too unhappy with theirs (result notwithstanding)
And what does this tell me about supporting the NI football team?
I guess it's this. When it comes to organising international football in NI, there are two possible approaches.
One: You could try to come up with arrangements re. flags, anthems, stadium, support, selection etc which will not offend anyone. This would have the advantage of potentially attracting everyone to support the team. However, this has three drawbacks. First, there will still be people who don't actually like football. Second, there will be people who cannot ever bring themselves to support any team called "NI". Third, it's impossible. Frankly, I've come to the conclusion that the first two don't actually really matter - at least, not while faced with the third drawback i.e. some NI folks' acute ability to draw out any argument endlessly, over the most petty and futile of issues, to the nth degree of absurdity.
Which leads us to the second approach. This requires drawing up arrangements which should satisfy any reasonable supporter, regardless of background etc, even though they may required to exercise a degree of toleration over some of the fringe issues. This is what I sincerely believe that the IFA is achieving, especially through its Football For All campaign.
Now there may be some Utopians out there for whom 95% is not enough (DCFC Steve, RDB, Mr. Parker?) Fair enough.
But consider this. For me and many others like me, the arrangements at Windsor aren't 100% perfect, either. For example, I dislike having GSTQ as the NI anthem and despise the No Surrender Brigade who deface even that.
But it's my team, it's Davey's team and it's also now the bloke at Heathrow's team, and we're not going to let a few wee small-minded ****s in the stands deprive us of the opportunity to go along to Windsor and enjoy the privilege of our 90 minutes of embarrassment at the hands of a few Icelandic fishermen and sheep farmers.
Further, we are not going to be deterred either by a few detractors outside the ground who, even if they had actually been to a match recently and seen the changes, still don't appear able to see beyond their own petty little political or religious considerations, and give us a fair hearing.
To any of the former group who might be reading (unlikely, I know!), you should know by now that your time has passed.
And to the latter group, I sincerely hope you enjoyed Stuttgart, or the gardening, or B&Q or whatever else you did on Saturday: whichever it was, it was your loss.
End of Rant.

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

Fair enough.....but as you know :rolleyes: re.the subject matter, everyone has an opinion! :p

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Indeed. And as "Mrs. Doubtfire" put it in the film:
"Opinions are like arseholes: everyone has them, but not many bear close scrutiny".

Yours might bear more scrutiny if you took the trouble actually to attend a match. ;)

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

Dassa et al;Why not go for 'Danny Boy' & the 'Ulster' flag as suggested by DCSteve? If ye must........

As for the dirge to the old German bag lady, many Eng.fans have a problem with it & would prefer the likes of 'Jerusalem'.
At least the Scots & Welsh have sufficient Identity, to have their own distinct anthems, nothing to do with Eng, GB & the like! :p

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What ulster flag do you mean and of course many england fans have problems because it represents the UK not England individually. I dont know about DB, i think a new anthem with no history to quarrel about is needed.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

And what are these slurs on the NI fans that I have ignored?

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apologies, its from the "best fans in europe" thread.
you'd rather see the union flag flown? going by lots of other posts many others would find this to be even more divisive and antagonistic....how can we win?

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

apologies, its from the "best fans in europe" thread.
you'd rather see the union flag flown? going by lots of other posts many others would find this to be even more divisive and antagonistic....how can we win?

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With some people, you can never win, but I wouldn't worry about it - it's their problem, really.

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

As for DB, is there any quarrel with this? :confused:

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Probably. If you want one. I'll see what I can do.

Yep, in just 1.8 seconds, I think I've found one: It's official title is "The Londonderry Air".

There you go, RDB, let's have another 100 posts on that. However, if you'll forgive me, I'll desist from joining in, since I fear dying of boredom....:(

As an Irish "Brit", who supports Northern Ireland, I don't think I really fancy being "united" with these chaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EIWA2VZZs

Wonder what Jackie Charlton and all the other "Brits" who have served the ROI over the years would make of that carry on?

It's only "a bit o craic".:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

Not withstanding I have met a large no.of fans, this may well happen. But only incognito! :cool:

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Assuming you're not e.g. Gerry Adams, Osama Bin Laiden or (worst of all) Robbie Savage, what makes you think that the rest of the support will be much bothered who you are, or what you're wearing?

Good Grief!

the flag from post 199 is fine by me but its not fans who make flags official or football associations for that matter its the the govt( NI assembly should have had this in their remit).