New owners at dundalk

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Recent LoI history is full of this kind of stuff, none of it has ever worked out, and all of it has had the fans of the club concerned trying to justify the investors' motives early on, just like Dundalk fans are doing now.

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I obviously missed the part where the majority of Dundalk fans were able to justify the motives of the investors.

We don't know what the motives are, but it is fair to assume that they want to get a return on investment.

It is the risks for the longer term consequences that causes concern.

Any objective analysis based on what we know right now says that this project could bring outstanding success or abject failure - or even both, from the fan perspective

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

I obviously missed the part where the majority of Dundalk fans were able to justify the motives of the investors.

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Have you tried reading the thread at all?

There's stuff about local catchment sizes and ground redevelopment possibilities and the European money and the potential for this to drive further investment in the league.

(I didn't reference a "majority" or "able to justify" btw. That's your words, not mine)

Actually, I think what this has most in common with Shels, Bohs, Sporting Fingal, Cork, Bray, etc, etc, etc, is how those who suggest that caution should be kept is roundly turned on and dismissed by fans of the club in question.

We need more honest White Horse-style posts and fewer aggressively dismissive Ezeikial-style posts for once.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Have you tried reading the thread at all?

There's stuff about local catchment sizes and ground redevelopment possibilities and the European money and the potential for this to drive further investment in the league.

(I didn't reference a "majority" or "able to justify" btw. That's your words, not mine)

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Isnt the word 'potential' a bit of a give away. The possible reasons, potential success, possible failure. The fact that we have ourselves battled a former owner to save the club seems to be lost on some. It is of course possible this ends up a totall mess and that has been stated before, it is also possible that it is also a breaking ground venture that will pique interest in the league even UCD, €50k would buy a good slice of that cake.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

We need more honest White Horse-style posts and fewer aggressively dismissive Ezeikial-style posts for once.

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I see that once again you are promoting yourself as a self appointed spokesman for a whole community, while also choosing to personslise your comments

I find it easy to be dismissive of your condescending posts.

However like White Horse and the majority of Dundalk fans I am excited about the possibilities yet fearful of the potential for disaster.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Actually, I think what this has most in common with Shels, Bohs, Sporting Fingal, Cork, Bray, etc, etc, etc, is how those who suggest that caution should be kept is roundly turned on and dismissed by fans of the club in question.

We need more honest White Horse-style posts and fewer aggressively dismissive Ezeikial-style posts for once.

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You're basing your opinion from a tiny subset of Dundalk fans that post on this forum, I'm surprised by that. Go to Oriel Web to get a better sample and even that is skewed.

Those who are more impulsive and crass shout the loudest. The general consensus amongst level headed Dundalk fans is caution, how could it be anything else when we have no details of the new owners plans?

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Originally Posted by mcgonigle

The general consensus amongst level headed Dundalk fans is caution, how could it be anything else when we have no details of the new owners plans?

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I would say cautious optimism is the general view. Based on past LoI experience and the fact that the new owners raison d’etre is to turn a profit then a bit of healthy scepticism is a legitimate viewpoint. In order for them to make money it follows that Dundalk will need to be successful so it could be a positive thing both for supporters and the new owners. As already mentioned a few times, any potential problems will arise if the club is not successful and fails to return a profit.

Unfortunately the supporters have no input so all we can do is enjoy the ride and be prepared if it comes to a messy end.
Personally, I’m excited by the potential positives but slightly apprehensive as we don’t have any indication yet of the owners short or long term plans.

I would suggest that the cautious optimism is that this wasnt a firesale new owner desperately needed situation. The previous owners had time to weigh up options and take their time. They remain loyal supporters of the club and would have done their own due diligence on the various groups that approached them. Of course once they signed over the club to someone else they lose their say we all know that. There are still the safeguards on the ownership of the ground. The legalities around the lease have been adjusted to prevent a repeat of what happened with Gerry Matthews threatening the demolition of structures he claimed to own if not the land itself (yes some will say such demolition would be no harm). There are inevitible rumours on aspects of the deal which include a 1st option buy back. If true of course nobody will know the cost of a buy back. The current staff are being kept on, we dont knw the length of contracts they will be on but Martin Connolly will still be involved for whatever thats worth medium to long term.

There was as much concern albeit not from supporters of other clubs when GM took over the club. There was nobody else interested in buying the club and as GM was a property developer it was believed that was his play was a land grab. Few really trusted him, especially as he had purchased Hiney Park and the Carrick Road being a pretty valuable area to have land to develop. It was GM that was first looking at greenfield sites, shared ground developments, DkIT stadium project. He openly stated that DFC had erred in not purchasing Oriel Park outright and he looked to do that but the Casey's wouldnt sell. Lessons were well learnt over that period by many, and that period from 2012 until the lease was secured back by the club could well be a crucial learning curve for this deal. Id think that in 2012, having an owner whose companies elsewhere were failing, a man losing his wealth to NAMA, would have in desperation done whatever he could to make money from the sale of Oriel Park if he'd been in a position to do so. He did basically hold the club to ransom over the lease and YDC when the fortunes of the club on the field started to generate well publicised income

This time round the deal from the clubs perspective was made on a stronger foothold, probably the strongest position any LoI club has been in when considering new ownership. It may count for little down the line but at the same time as it wasnt a take it or bust sale, safeguards could be in place. We will know more both from the new owners as the lay out their plans over the coming weeks and over time. As an example of the type of concerns I have, Im not particularly enamoured by some members of the consortium's views expressed on other projects, beyond what might happen in 3,5 10 years.

To dundalk fans on here: If dundalk don't win the league this year, and thus wont be in champions league qualification( where the profit these people are looking for is) will Kenny be under serious pressure?

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

I would suggest that the cautious optimism is that this wasnt a firesale new owner desperately needed situation. The previous owners had time to weigh up options and take their time. They remain loyal supporters of the club and would have done their own due diligence on the various groups that approached them. Of course once they signed over the club to someone else they lose their say we all know that. There are still the safeguards on the ownership of the ground.

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That's exactly what we said when our club was sold to Arkaga. It's understandable that the fans of the club try to justify it. We've been there. But the whole thing doesn't add up, certainly from my point-of-view. If you try to consider the risk-return of such an "investment", I'm sure they could do better things with their Assets Under Management. It's a worry for the league as a whole IMO.

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Originally Posted by placid casual

To dundalk fans on here: If dundalk don't win the league this year, and thus wont be in champions league qualification( where the profit these people are looking for is) will Kenny be under serious pressure?

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No one knows the answer to that hypothetical question.

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Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar

That's exactly what we said when our club was sold to Arkaga. It's understandable that the fans of the club try to justify it..

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I don't think Nesta is trying to justify anything, but simply giving some additional context to the sale/takeover.

The reality is that Dundalk fans have little option but to embrace the change ( hoping for the best while preparing for the worst)

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Originally Posted by mcgonigle

The general consensus amongst level headed Dundalk fans is caution, how could it be anything else when we have no details of the new owners plans?

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The owners strategy is clear, it is their opinion that the cost of achieving European success at Dundalk is less than the rewards, that difference is called profit. If the consortium is correct they retain their interest in the club, if not they walk away, that is the long and short of it I am afraid.

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Originally Posted by redarmyfaction

The owners strategy is clear, it is their opinion that the cost of achieving European success at Dundalk is less than the rewards, that difference is called profit. If the consortium is correct they retain their interest in the club, if not they walk away, that is the long and short of it I am afraid.

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That's likely to prove a reasonable, if overly simplified, summary of what will emerge.

Targeting a return on investment is not an ignoble objective, but their vision and strategy have yet to emerge.
For example , their level of commitment and action on ground upgrading will be an important factor. Their plans on further investment and exit strategy would also be interesting to understand

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

That's likely to prove a reasonable, if overly simplified, summary of what will emerge.

Targeting a return on investment is not an ignoble objective, but their vision and strategy have yet to emerge.
For example , their level of commitment and action on ground upgrading will be an important factor. Their plans on further investment and exit strategy would also be interesting to understand

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Their exit strategy will be to minimise losses by liquidizing assets. The pursuit of profit may not be ignoble but "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"

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Originally Posted by redarmyfaction

Their exit strategy will be to minimise losses by liquidizing assets. The pursuit of profit may not be ignoble but "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"

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What assets?

I don't disagree with your summary of their probable objective but as Ezeikial has said that is a very simplified summary. Hypothetically if they put money into a playing budget and are happy to play in Tallaght/Aviva on big European nights then they minimise their expenditure, however if they are planning to provide a stadium to host these types of nights then making profit becomes much more difficult. I'm sure they've thought about this

I think whether they actually do substantial work on the stadium, which they don't own, will say a lot to their long term plan. If they do, it's a sign they're looking to be involved longer term, and build a brand around the team. If they're happy to continue to play in Tallaght, it's more likely a short term immediate profit making venture.

The motives of the new owners has been not made clear to fans. We are awaiting details in the next couple of weeks.

However, Paul Brown and Andy Connolly have been in discussion with them for five months and are convinced that they can take the club forward in a way that was not achievable by the previous owners. I don't expect fans of other teams to know Paul Brown and Andy Connolly, but they are real fans. They took over Dundalk when it was a basket case and in serious debt. There was no prospect of making a penny. I have travelled around Europe following Dundalk and Paul Brown was always there with the away fans in the corner of stadia, wearing his replica shirt like everyone else.

If those two fans are convinced this is the right thing for the club, it is something that gives me hope and confidence. Is it conclusive? No, as money can taint judgement. But it will do for now.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

I see that once again you are promoting yourself as a self appointed spokesman for a whole community, while also choosing to personslise your comments

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What are you talking about?

My posts are my opinions, not those of foot.ie.

Obviously.

Tis funny that one month you're accusing people of specialising in trying to misrepresent what others have said, and the next month you're off misrepresenting what I've said as the opinion of the entire forum.

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Originally Posted by White Horse

However, Paul Brown and Andy Connolly have been in discussion with them for five months and are convinced that they can take the club forward in a way that was not achievable by the previous owners. I don't expect fans of other teams to know Paul Brown and Andy Connolly, but they are real fans. They took over Dundalk when it was a basket case and in serious debt. There was no prospect of making a penny. I have travelled around Europe following Dundalk and Paul Brown was always there with the away fans in the corner of stadia, wearing his replica shirt like everyone else.

If those two fans are convinced this is the right thing for the club, it is something that gives me hope and confidence. Is it conclusive? No, as money can taint judgement. But it will do for now.

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Just to draw another parallel, if you read Neale Horgan's books on Cork under Arkaga, there's an interview with Brian Lennox where he discusses selling to Arkaga for exactly the same reason. He was a genuine fan, had taken over the club in dire straits with no intention of making money out of it, felt he'd taken it as far as he could, and wanted to find the next step forward. We all know how that panned out. I actually thought Lennox came across a bit naive in the interview - that he was a fan became his weakness rather than a strength.

Obviously Arkaga and Peak6 are different, as are Lennox and Brown/Connolly. But football is a murky business, and some level of scepticism has to be good here.

And even more obviously, it's not like anyone on here can actually do anything about the deal.