Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

ANyone of these will do as a 2-1 in Kazakstan is unacceptable to mighty Ireland. Sack Trapp!!

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We are a car crash on permanent repeat at the moment, hoofing the ball back to the opposition after 5 seconds of possession against better and lower mid-ranking teams and giving them the initiative. We have better personnel than the home nations bar England and comfortably beat them all last year, so the comparisons above aren't really valid. We should be doing better than we are at the moment. Trap has taken us as far as we can go under him, and we have actually being going backwards for close to a year now.

A 4-4-2 with GW and KA in the middle, hoofing defenders and non-wingers on the wing just has to end. We need to keep the ball for more than 5 seconds against teams better than Oman and we need more bodies in the middle and more energy up front.

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Originally Posted by p2011

. We have better personnel than the home nations bar England and comfortably beat them all last year, so the comparisons above aren't really valid. We should be doing better than we are at the moment. Trap has taken us as far as we can go under him, and we have actually being going backwards for close to a year now.

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Who was the manager when we comfortably beat them? And we didn't comfortably beat the Scots. It was a close game. The Scottish team man for man and club for club are the equal of the Irish team. Many Irish fans seem to think we are a lot better than we are, made up as we are of second tier EPL players, some of whom aren't regulars and Championship players as well as players in the USA.

This picture brings these fans to mind:

Attachment 1885

If qualifying for tournaments is going backwards I'd be happy to accept that. Just be careful what you wish for. I have seen 20+ managers come and go at Hillsboro of whom 5 improved things. You say Trapp has brought us as far as we can go. How far do you think this Irish team can go?

I've spent the day on business in Glasgow. Man, I'd take our mood over theirs any day of the week.

I see Spain needed an 87th minute winner against Georgia last night.

As one friend said, at least we keep playing to the final whistle. My opinion hasn't changed - the approach needs freshening up because I think Austria (gave Germany a really tough game) and Sweden will be tough opponents and whilst the result on Friday was all-important, familiar failings were revealed again.

I'd be surprised if anyone is happy for everything to stay as it is.

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Originally Posted by Pearl Black

Clearly everybody is entitled to their opinion and, for what it’s worth, here is mine… When Staunton was appointed it was all about money – the cheapest available …

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No, it wasn't. He was on €200k, and Robson was on the same again. Cheaper than Trapattoni certainly, but not cheap. McCarthy and Kerr had been on broadly similar money. You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Got it, the Portuguese manager whose team beat Azerbaijan 1-0 at home

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You must have gone to bed early! They won 3-0 in the end.

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Originally Posted by John83

No, it wasn't. He was on €200k, and Robson was on the same again. Cheaper than Trapattoni certainly, but not cheap. McCarthy and Kerr had been on broadly similar money. You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

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I don't think I made any comparison to McCarthy or Kerr's salaries - I said he was the cheapest available. Now I'm not aware of anybody being interviewed at the time who was cheaper but maybe you do. If so, please enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

If qualifying for tournaments is going backwards I'd be happy to accept that. Just be careful what you wish for.

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But if you read my argument carefully, you'll realize that I deliberately said for close to a year now, thus deliberately excluding the qualification group! (If people want to get excited about beating Estonia, then that's their choice.)

However, the group stage too was evidence of going backwards: not a single good performance (Slovakia away about the best of a bad lot), giving the initiative back to everybody apart from Andorra most of the time in most of the games. Remember: we took 3 points out of 12 off the top two seeds in that group! We qualified by beating Armenia twice (the away win was a good grind, admittedly) and by Armenia beating Slovakia twice - again, if all that's something to get excited about...

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

How far do you think this Irish team can go?

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How about: Keeping the ball for more than 5 seconds? Playing in a shape that gives us a chance? Picking fit players who are in form?

And concentrating on the one-off difficulties of Sweden, Portugal or Spain(!!!!) to justify the present set-up is a bit rich. Serious analysis considers a long-term trend over a few years, not the one-off blips of some of the best teams in the world (Portugal, Spain) or of those who consistently box way above their weight (Sweden).

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Originally Posted by p2011

How about: Keeping the ball for more than 5 seconds? Playing in a shape that gives us a chance? Picking fit players who are in form?

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Results wise - how far do you think the team can go and what's your minimum expectation?

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Originally Posted by barney

Results wise - how far do you think the team can go and what's your minimum expectation?

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I don't have to specify exact results and group positions, that's ridiculous.

I'd like to see us competitive and giving top teams a decent game (hasn't happened since Paris in a competitive game) and taking the initiative for longer periods against mid-ranking teams, especially at home.

We are not world-beaters, but we're not doing ourselves justice at the moment. I'm more interested in us giving ourselves a chance and giving the fans something to get enthusiastic about. And anyway, if you are fixated on results, they have been poor too now in recent years no matter what your perspective.

Would you put playing pretty (or your interpretation of pretty) football ahead of getting to a major tournament?

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Originally Posted by p2011

I don't have to specify exact results and group positions, that's ridiculous.

I'd like to see us competitive and giving top teams a decent game (hasn't happened since Paris in a competitive game) and taking the initiative for longer periods against mid-ranking teams, especially at home.

We are not world-beaters, but we're not doing ourselves justice at the moment. I'm more interested in us giving ourselves a chance and giving the fans something to get enthusiastic about. And anyway, if you are fixated on results, they have been poor too now in recent years no matter what your perspective.

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You're being a bit vague.

Stuff like "give top teams a decent game", "taking initiative", "not doing ourselves justice", "giving ourselves a chance" is all very subjective. Do you think Trap has taken us as far as he can results-wise? If so, how much better do you think this team can do? In this group, where do you think we could finish? Where would be an acceptable place to finish?

On the whole, results haven't really been that poor. Yeah the Euros were bad but we got a very tough draw against teams I'd expect to beat us in the cold light of day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm questioning Trap myself but I just don't buy people saying "he's taken us as far as he can" without anything to back it up. It's just a cliche like blaming a lack of "passion and pride in the shirt" for bad performances.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Would you put playing pretty (or your interpretation of pretty) football ahead of getting to a major tournament?

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Who said anything about "pretty"?

Can we discuss performances and players and (if you want) results instead of hounding and attacking posters and twisting their words.... I don't see any of you challenging my assertion that even results have been poor recently. If you're all so happy with Trap, tell us what there is to be content with. Which meaningful games in the last few years have been satisfactory? Beating Estonia?

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Originally Posted by barney

On the whole, results haven't really been that poor.

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Surely that is the definition of vague. If not, which recent results have been good?

Of course we had tough opponents in the Euro finals, but Ireland teams in the past rarely capitulated and yielded possession and initiative like we have done versus Russia twice, Croatia, Spain and Italy. We had better performances versus big teams under Jack, Mick, even Kerr (France away). We haven't seen anything like that in three years under Trap. I think that's specific enough.

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Originally Posted by barney

Results wise - how far do you think the team can go and what's your minimum expectation?

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I'll commit to a standard

All that matters is our position in the group at the end.

First place would obviously be amazing, perhaps would be our greatest ever football achievement (given the players at our disposal)

Second would be above par and a success for the manager irrespective of what happened in a play off.

Third place would be a bit below par. It would depend on the exact nature. A close race with eg Sweden for second would be ok and just about acceptable. A big gap with us vying for fourth would be a disappointment.

Fourth or below - Failure and an indictment of the manager.

I can appreciate an argument put forward that we don't have the abundance of world class players of yesteryear. Jesus at one point under Jack we had the guts of 3-4 top Liverpool players (best club side in Europe at the time), Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Kevin Moran etc. I can also appreciate that on paper, Trap has gotten very good results in qualifying against teams that we would traditionally have dropped points against. I would have been delighted with a 2-1 win in Kazakhstan before the game.

However, what does get to me is that we have some very very promising young talents that are just not been given the chance to shine. I'm not saying that they are the next Brady or Giles, but they look like they could have a good future.

I mean bar Wilson can anyone realistically see any of those young lads getting a chance in the next game. When Coleman was tearing it up at Everton, Trap was indifferent to him and appeared almost eager to pick out faults in his game. When McCarthy was playing great at Wigan, it was something similar. I saw something where Trap mentioned concerns over Ciaran Clark's defensive errors as a reason for him not being picked. Valid enough point going on what I've seen this season, but surely he could have been more positive about a highly talented young lad that picked Ireland over England and could have a great future in the game. The handling of McClean was also a disgrace. The fact that we all know that he had to make a grovelling apology is surely not a good thing. His talk up of Brady was out of character. The cynic in me would say that it was done to well and truely put McClean in his place. This contrasts so much with how Mick would have dealt with the young lads.

The way we play is also a source of annoyance for me. The ball was continually lumped up to Walters in the Kazakhstan game, just like it would have been in about 20 games under Trap. So utterly depressingly predictible. At times, it was a pleasure to watch us against Oman (admittedly not a great team). Lads like Meyler were trying to be constructive and yes they did lose the ball a number of times, but they tried to play the game the way it should be played. That game offered us a glimpse of a possibly fine future for us.

However, Trap will revert to type against Germany and we'll be back to the same old structure. We might nick a draw, heck we might nick a one off win, but I really can't see how world class players won't work us out and I do fear this game. Indeed, I think we might have a better chance in Germany, where our backs to the wall approach could produce heroics.

I suppose all I want from Trap is that he puts out the best 11 that we have on the pitch. I really don't think he has done that and I think his holding of grudges is a large part of that. This to a large part explains the indifference of the general public to the Irish football team.

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

I'll commit to a standard

All that matters is our position in the group at the end.

First place would obviously be amazing, perhaps would be our greatest ever football achievement (given the players at our disposal)

Second would be above par and a success for the manager irrespective of what happened in a play off.

Third place would be a bit below par. It would depend on the exact nature. A close race with eg Sweden for second would be ok and just about acceptable. A big gap with us vying for fourth would be a disappointment.

Fourth or below - Failure and an indictment of the manager.

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That's reasonable in my book.

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

I'll commit to a standard

All that matters is our position in the group at the end.

First place would obviously be amazing, perhaps would be our greatest ever football achievement (given the players at our disposal)

Second would be above par and a success for the manager irrespective of what happened in a play off.

Third place would be a bit below par. It would depend on the exact nature. A close race with eg Sweden for second would be ok and just about acceptable. A big gap with us vying for fourth would be a disappointment.

Fourth or below - Failure and an indictment of the manager.

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Second would be above par but third would be below par? You're a difficult man to please!

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Originally Posted by p2011

Who said anything about "pretty"?

Can we discuss performances and players and (if you want) results instead of hounding and attacking posters and twisting their words.... I don't see any of you challenging my assertion that even results have been poor recently. If you're all so happy with Trap, tell us what there is to be content with. Which meaningful games in the last few years have been satisfactory? Beating Estonia?

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Ok here are the results post Paris, since Paris seems to be viewed as some sort of high water mark (either Excellent, Good, Average, Bad, Very Bad). These are results only and not performances, as you've said results only, so it doesnt factor in how well or badly we played in each game. It's using only matches verfied by FIFA.com, so playing the Tuscan reserve XI and Nottingham Forest's B team are ignored.

(N) Brazil - L 0-2 - Average result, defeat against a better team on a neutral venue
(H) Paraguay - W 2-1 - Good result, beat a team that reached WC Quarters a month later, but in the context of a home friendly it's good but not excellent
(H) Algeria - W 3-0 - Again good, beating a poor team at home, but Algeria were hard to break down in the WC, drawing with England and only losing by a single goal to Slovenia and USA (the former after being down to 10 men)
(H) Argentina - L 1-0 - Bad result, against a strong team but still a defeat at home.
(A) Armenia - W 1-0 - Good result, beating a potentially weaker team, but away from home in difficult conditions (distance heat etc)
(H) Andorra - W 3-1 - Average result, beating a weaker team, but reasonably comfortably as expected
(H) Russia - L 3-2 - Bad result, lost to a strong team but at home where ideally we would have got at least a draw
(A) Slovakia - D 1-1 - Average result, drew to a team that made it to knockouts of WC, but a team of similar standard to us.
(H) Norway - L 1-2 - Very bad result, lost to a team probably slightly worse than us at home.
(H) Wales - W 3-1 - Average result, beat a team we were expected to beat.
(H) Macedonia - W 2-1 - Average result, home win against a slightly weaker team
(H) Uruguay - L 3-2 - Bad result, lost to team signficantly stronger than us, but at home
(H) Norther Ireland - W 5-0 - Good result, we beat a weaker team but by a high margin
(H) Scotland - W 1-0 - Average result, beat a similar (maybe slightly weaker) team at home, as expected
(A) Macedonia - W 2-0 - Good result, beat a weaker team but away from home in a difficult venue
(N) Italy - W 2-0 Very good result, beat a strong team by 2 goals in neutral venue
(H) Croatia - D 0-0 Average result, drew with a stronger team at home
(H) Slovakia - D 0-0 Bad result, home draw against a team of similar ability
(A) Russia - D 0-0 Good result, draw with a stronger team away from home
(A) Andorra - W 2-0 Average, beat a team we expected to bear
(H) Armenia - W 2-1 Average, again home win against slightly weaker team
(A) Estonia - W 4-0 Good result, comprehensive win against a weaker team, but away and by big margin
(H) Estonia - D 1-1 Average result, weaker team but a result that suited us given 1st leg
(H) Czech - D 1-1 Bad result, not winning against a similar team at home
(H) Bosnia - W 1-0 Good result, beating a strong team at home
(N) Croatia - L 1-3 Bad result, losing to a stronger team in a tournament
(N) Spain - L 4-0 Very bad result, losing by a big margin to a stronger team
(N) Italy - L 2-0, Bad result, losing to a stronger team.
(A) Serbia - D 0-0 Good result, draw with a similar strength team away from home
(A) Kazakstan - A 2-1 Good result, win away against weak team but again distance being a factor.
(N) Oman - W 4-1 Good result, won against very weak team but by big margin.

Overall the results alone pan out to be pretty average, not spectacular but not woeful either.

I think a lot of people here are just arguing for argument's sake. P2011 makes some good points I think and he's not in the looney "Indo-inspired Trap out now" camp by any means. I think OwlsFan is being disingenuous by taking the line that we qualified & we're not Scotland line of argument, as if there's no degree of nuance allowed in this argument. (btw I scrolled through the Scottish starting XI vs Macedonia and we are a better team in probably 7 or 8 out of 11 positions). Also, nobody is calling for pretty football over more effective football.

I think the key observation is that what was effective in campaign one appears to be coming less effective, despite the results. Some players are not looking happy in their positions and most of us - keyboard warriors admittedly - think that adjustment rather than wholesale change is needed. Time will tell if this is right or not and I'll be perfectly happy with another 20 or 21 points this campaign even if hoofball is the way we do it. However, I fear that team selections and tactics will come up short this time and an adjustment in the approach would improve our likelihood of success. I suspect that's what p2011 is trying to say too, but he's being distracted by fallacious argument.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You must have gone to bed early! They won 3-0 in the end.

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:) I did. I left in the 85th minute when they were still only 1-0 up. I didn't realise they were as good as us for late goals.

As regards "the media" having an anti-Trapp agenda, certainly most journalists are against him by now while Bill and his cohorts on the RTE Panel, until the last programme, have also been very much anti-Trapp. I can see the reasons for why the journalists and many fans are against him. I have 5 other friends who have been following Ireland for donkeys years and 3 of us support Trapp and 3 are against. Such is the schism but as far as I can see nearly all the media is against him. Individual journalists may have agendas to support their stance (e.g. by saying McLean had a great game against Oman yet Trapp won't pick him) but by and large they are reflecting a ground swell of opinion.

He doesn't select the "people's choice" of players. He doesn't play keep ball. His communication with the players is apparently bad. Personally, much of this irritates me but while we continue our amazing unbeaten away run in the qualifying campaigns and are challenging for qualification, I will support the manager because somehow I think he knows best.

If we start losing to Austria/Sweden then it's time for "thanks for the memories" and enter the new manager to enjoy the wrath of the RTE Panel, but the support of the media and fans provided he selects the people's choices and plays the ball on the ground but should the results go against him.....well, I think you know the rest.