Remember, Dunne and O'Shea were Trapattoni's starting centre half partnership until St Ledger emerged as a credible partner for Dunne, and until now there hasn't been a player good enough to replace him at right full when he's been available (i.e. Kelly or McShane)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Still a fair number of Irish left in Nottingham!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That wasn't me. I travel over on my own and meet up with cousins before the game.
Ok, I see myself agreeing with skstu again on a lot of points i think. I definitely think Mcgeady was man of the match even if he had a few wayward passes and poor crosses. If mcgeady hadn't played we would probably have had 10% less possession and time on the ball. I really don't see how Duff got MOTM, he was good but thats as far as it goes. One thing I noticed which you definitely wouldn't figure from watching on the TV is the complete lack of communication between Duff and Foley, on many occasions duff was looking behind him after running forward for back up but foley was nowhere to be seen. He rarely ventured past the half way line in the second half, and with Trap right beside him on the line I gather this was the reason. But a few more games together and I am sure their understanding and communication would improve. What really got me again was when duff or mcgeady got the ball there was never any help for either of them or support from the midfielders, even the forwards they were obviouslly told to stay in the box, but with the big macedonian centre halfs what was the point in that? I thought duff and mcgeady had it very tough from that point of view, if they didnt get their cross in they were to be lambasted by us, but yet no one was helping them.
On the foley thing, in Gaelic you follow yer man wherever he goes, like a greyhound on a rabbit, but in soccer you more mark your area as opposed to your man, so I'm less inclined to blame him here completely. It has nothing to do with being someone like kilbane or whatever. ON the kilbane thing he was ok, as was O'dea they didn't have an awful lot to do to be honest, against macedonia away I would like to see how they perform, and obviously russia away too(if selected i know, i mean the quality of the opposition and the venue). I think people get over excited when they see a player doesn't make a howler in a game, in their eyes it automatically means a player has played well. The first thing i noticed which happened twice at the start of the game, was kilbane coming into deep, he got caught out once, but the linesman flagged for offside, right over the top of him, so I gather they had done their homework on him, kilbane hadn't a clue it was offside either which means he wasn't aware of his positional sense or of the opposition at all.
We don't seem capable of not conceding to the opposition when we go ahead, the ball is played through us very very easily. Just because they didn't score a second and we won doesn't mean we had it easy or were comfortable, it just shows how limited the macedonians were tbh, if that was against a better opposition like russia at home, all that possession would be made count and we would be punished, as so easily demonstrated with their goal and westwoods great save, when they played a little intelligently they carved us open like a good sunday roast.
Overall, we really should be 2 points clear at this stage, but again people will be clouded by the fact we are halfway through and we are joint top. 10 points from 5 games, its fairly average really, as have the opponents we've played. Still its up to us with only one really tricky away game left so it could be worse, but it most certainly could be a lot better.
You didn't get laid in Dublin obviously Paul.
Nobody is claiming that everything is all hunky dory. Everyone accepts that we've left points out there (as usual), but maybe that the Armenia away win wasn't just to be expected, it was actually a decent result.
Foley / GAA / tracking his man: it was a bad mistake. He wasn't in tune with the other defenders who were pressing up for offside - a key part of our defensive strategy. Foley is a footballer, not a GAA player. Generally I thought he was decent enough, and erred on the side of conservatism. If he keeps his place I reckon he'll grow into the role.
O'Dea gave no reason to give those who criticised his selection any reason to say "I told you so". Obviously there are bigger tests ahead and hopefully we can revert to our senior CBs. In hindsight the view that O'Dea's selection was "ridiculous" didn't hold any water.
Macedonia missed a gilt-edged chance. I reckon we missed at least two: Long and Duff. It's a footy game. Teams exchange chances, whoever takes more wins.
We switched off and were happy to let them have the ball when ahead. This occurs far too much and is a major flaw in the team.
The point about Foley I was trying to make was whoever was in that area should have picked up on the ball and player and followed - it wouldn't matter if they lost their own man as he would have been out of play anyway.
About O'dea, the question i was trying to ask was, would it have been any different had clark been in there? I don't think so, as there was very little to do, yet it would have given dunne and clark another game together in the centre and improve their understanding. In the longer term I don't see O'dea being our first or second choice CB, even after Dunne and O'shea have retired.
That's pretty speculative though. Trap played O'Dea - justified it to the public pre-game - and O'Dea went on to fully vindicate his selection, a selection which helped us secure a must-have three points. That's the important thing, not whether Clark gets a head-start in the race for 2016.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
And while I fully agree re:Clark, if O'Dea keeps rising to these challenges there's no reason why he can't compete for a place.
Thats the unprovable argument and quite frankly ridiculous. All that was asked to be done in this game was that O'Dea justify his selection and he did enough to justify it 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
As Houghton said, the future is the next game.
All bets were off if we dropped points here.
Granted O'Dea did okay against Macedonia but I think you need to qualify that one performance in relation to what he has previously shown. We'll see how he gets on without Dunne by his side against Uruguay - hopefully he'll put in another good performance but I think he's too slow, cumbersome and technically weak for international football.
Its speculative only for the fact that neither would have had much to do. The point is it didn't come down to any game saving tackles or whatever, Macedonia were very limited in going forward, they only had about 2 clear chances through the middle, one which they took, one which they didn't, O'dea didn't have anything to do with either which can't be seen positively or negatively as it wasn't his area. You have to take the context of one game, into his very average performances in previous games, where he has HAD to be more involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
And the goal again, i beleive kilbane was nearly at fault as much as Dunne, but i dont need to keep going on there.
He's had one big test as an international and he's passed it - whether he now turns into Dunne or McShane is another question, but I don't think there should be any qualifications about how he played on Saturday. He did well, end of. He'll be judged game-by-game just like any other player.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
And that's ridiculously speculative. Might as well speculate on why O'Dea didn't score a headed winner when we were possibly at 2-2 and it might have been injury time (possibly). This is NOT to say O'Dea will have bigger, more difficult, tests to face - of course he will. But to focus on the mistakes he might have made rather than focus on the facts of his actual performance comes across as wilfully negative and crass. Let's give credit where it's due and refrain from taking potshots until it's actually warranted...Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Kilbane can carry a bit, but Dunne let his man go and then was turned far too easy. All too familiar from watching him at Villa this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Who made the clean tackle on Pandev in the box?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Clark would have throttled him and conceded a penalty, for sure.
Well thats speculative too geysir! But I actually thought that was Dunne, fair point, but its only 1 tackle.
Thats true too SVD, I put that down to dunne being rusty but you might have seen more at Villa than I did. I thought he looked laboured and committed himself too quick and was then not sharp enough to cut back inside, but had kilbane done the basics and pushed his man out wide instead of letting him turn in on his left to make the pass then that wouldn't have happened.
But ya Dunne was way to easily turned, that aside he was immense though, far more so than kilbane.
Speculative? no way, by your standards of argument :)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It proves the point that in a split second crucial tackle to make in the box, Trap put all his chips on O'Dea making the mature choice, which points to as to why he did not select Clark. So obviously Clark would have displayed what Trap suspected about him.
Maturity over younger ability was a proven selection in that game.
In O'Dea's case he actually started the game with a really well timed tackle, and was in tune with Dunne throughout. He did what he needed to do. If he was nervy or just not up to it he'd have been found out. I think it's churlish not to acknowledge that O'Dea did just fine and to try and qualify his performance by citing the opposition. If the poor quality of the opposition was a factor why be bothered about who played CB?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
wrt Foley, not keeping in line with the other defenders was the mistake, and it was a mistake. We got away with it so we move on without further recrimination.
I actually think we have two tricky away games left - three if you look at how Slovakia did against Andorra on an absolute disgrace of a pitch. Unless Russia doesn't count as tricky on account of it being downright hard.
Drop Keane says Miguel Delaney. Among some other drivel...
I was very unsure about O'Dea's selection as the expense of Clark(e)??!!?).
Credit where its due - O'Dea produced a very good performance and some excellently timed challenges helped the entire team grow in confidence which also fed the crowds enthusiasm.
O'Dea delivered upon all that was asked of him on Saturday and he should get the deserved recognition for job well done.
P.S - could the rarely used "accounability metre" show that in the past I have stated that Green could develop into a decent player for us and that I had grave concerns about O'Dea's selection.
................the last shreds of credibilty on foot.ie tore asunder.....................
always liked hogan.great piece:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...e-2596929.html
a tip lad txtd me on saturday after keanes goal saying something similar, gaa head but likes the soccer too.
I liked that article alright.
Something else about O'Dea's selection that I didn't consider before the game is his experience in high profile games - he has Champions League experience against the likes of AC Milan and played in Old Firm games, including scoring against Rangers in the League Cup final in 2009, whereas Clark has only a handful of game before this season.
I'm not saying that would have justified his selection, his performance did that, but it would have been another factor in his favour.
Superb article. Really well written.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea