State of the League

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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Originally Posted by Mr A

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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The only way forward is if clubs start to live in the real world. Offering contracts of 3-4 years worth 100k+ a year is madness.

At this moment in time can anyone see a way out of this? It's frustrating that results in Europe are improving yet we all know that's built on the back of over expenditure. I'm really depressed about all this

Silver bullet! Silver bullet!

Was saying on the other thread that this is, I think, how Platinum One's vision would end up. No wage cap, spend spend spend, worry later. I think they're gone now. Rumours on the Cork forum that Arkaga have pulled out because P1's idea is on the rocks.

The top four are spending mad money. They middle four are overstretching themselves to try and keep up someway. The bottom four are overstretching themselves to avoid relegation (honourable exceptions in places obviously). The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up. And so on down the line.

Bohs and Drogs seem in trouble; Bohs cos they're spending money they look like not getting now, and Drogs because of the ongoing ground issues and because all the while, United Park is dropping in value making the new ground more expensive. Give it a couple of years and we'll be back to ten years ago, I think - mostly part time teams with no big four and any team capable of getting into Europe. Then use your CPOs to build steadily from there. Not a bad thing either.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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The only silver bullet left is the all in gamble of the AIL, and imo that's a bluff holding a pair of 2's. The only option is to gradually build up to a point where professional football is sustainable. Although I have to say, it could be sustainable at some clubs if there were realistic wages for the standard of player being signed.

Rather than reducing the number of clubs in the premier, it may be time to look at increasing it to bring more teams to the top table. All a reduced premier is doing is driving up wages and making the risk more attractive, and hence we have so many clubs chancing their arm to survive. (As Stu puts much better than me above)

It's clear that clubs can't be trusted, so the FAI have to be more proactive when it comes to checking clubs finances. I had some hope that the Galway situation was a positive, but Cork going under the radar and now seemingly suddenly looking for examinership really means the FAI checks are worthless.

Well no- if the FAI's checks helped keep Galway on the rails then they're not worthless, regardless of what happened at Cork.

In fairness to the FAI I think they're in a nearly impossible position- it's virtually impossible to force the clubs to run themselves properly and the will just isn't there at the clubs to make it happen.

Quoting from another thread, but I think it's more appropriate here?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

With Bohs' and Drogs' ground deals in trouble, I can see in a couple of years the league going back to how it was ten years ago, to be honest.

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Was it really all that much worse 10 years ago? Crowds weren't much different, the league was more competitive albeit with lesser quality players. All the huge wages have brought ia a couple of ok results in europe with little knock on effect for the league bar massive debts and what feels like weekly reports of clubs in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Macy

Was it really all that much worse 10 years ago? Crowds weren't much different, the league was more competitive albeit with lesser quality players. All the huge wages have brought ia a couple of ok results in europe with little knock on effect for the league bar massive debts and what feels like weekly reports of clubs in trouble...

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I agree. That's where I think it'll end up though.

And then start to build up with concentration on sustainability, community involvement and proper planning. Sure we might not get the same Euro results and the standard of play may dip a little (but not very much- I don't think the league would lose many players) but the whole thing would be on a solid foundation at last.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The top four are spending mad money. They middle four are overstretching themselves to try and keep up someway. The bottom four are overstretching themselves to avoid relegation (honourable exceptions in places obviously). The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up. And so on down the line.
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I'd agree with the "big four" spending mad money but not the middle four. Bray, Rovers and UCD seem to be ok. Derry are ok but there chairman has hinted about going back part time.
In the bottom four Galway, Sligo, Harps all got into trouble for going Full-Time when they probably should have stayed part-time. Cobh are in trouble as in reality they are a small club and would always have difficulties competing.
In the 1st Division only Waterford out of the top four are overstretching, Shels seem to be ok and being run right, Fingal although are spending ridiculous money on wages are fully funded for 5 years and according to our club owner we are going to have our most successful financial year to date. Clubs just need to learn from there mistakes. Unfortunately it seems clubs have to almost face extinction before they run their clubs right. Just look at Rovers, Shels and Dundalk for example.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

And then start to build up with concentration on sustainability, community involvement and proper planning. Sure we might not get the same Euro results and the standard of play may dip a little (but not very much- I don't think the league would lose many players) but the whole thing would be on a solid foundation at last.

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I think summer season and the improvement in coaching and training facilities should prevent the league from regressing too far. As has been pointed out the majority of players would still be playing here even if they were paid a whole lot less. We might lose a small fraction of the current elite, but the overall standard of the league would be hardly affected. Sustainability is the primary key.

It looks like most teams will just go back part-time.

Not every player is going to up and leave for England/Scotland - there's only interest in a handful of players anyway so they'll simply have to stay where they are and just take wage cuts and in most cases get another job.

The wages paid in this league for very average players is pretty shocking, especially considering how little players give back to the clubs they play for.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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I think that the sooner 2-3 professional youth academies are set up, the better in order to pump low wage, technically good talent into the league. It should help reduce the problems. I think that the FAI should put more money into full time youth academies where mid to late teens get an education and professional training - not so much fitness but work on strength, pace but most of all their technical ability to play football. Its important not to burn them out though. I think irish players are good physically by nature but lack a lot technically. The efflux of young players to Britain has to stop - they get burnt out or don't play at all. How many are really making the grade now - none probably. Stephen Ireland is average and he is probably the last young Irishman to make the breakthrough and he has major problems.

Its also important to introduce Psychologists at an early age to help players prepare mentally for matches and help them deal with the media. Furthermore, nutritionists and dieticians are important.

Regarding the 1st division, part time status should be abandonded. There should be no intermediate between amateur level and professional level. I think that 1st division teams should be forced to have 5 players on the pitch at all times that are under the age of 21 and that have come through their youth ranks.

The other part to the puzzle is more help from the media, Government and FAI, not just in terms of funding but also in putting together a plan. Having a side in the UEFA Cup group stages or CL group stages could be an extremely positive thing for the country, rather than Irish people forking out 1000s to go watch UK teams (and still be called Paddies).

Short term, well I think that the 10 team league will help but more of the clubs in the 1st division and lower half premeir should concentrate on youth development - imagine if UCD were able to keep all their players and offer them full time contracts. They would be be very close to the top of the league!!!

Thats some of my basic views anyway.

Bottom line is nobody (not enough anyway) wants to watch domestic football. No amount of marketing, wage restructuring etc will change that.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up.

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What do you base this on? We are going to breakeven at worst this year.

A few of us have been saying around here for a while now that this league will have to be stripped right back and rebuilt from the bottom up. Wages have to come right down, clubs have to go part time, the FAI have to get the juniors involved at some level (ideally in a structured league system), the wage cap has to be enforced, and the big clubs have to be kept on a tight lease and not chase that Champions League glory at all costs. Restructuring the league into one Premier, supported by the provience's senior leagues is vital in my opinion. It brings more of the community into the game and provides the crucial relegation/promotion that is needed in competitive football. That's just a start though

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Originally Posted by CMcC

Bottom line is nobody (not enough anyway) wants to watch domestic football. No amount of marketing, wage restructuring etc will change that.

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If Pats qualify for UEFA cup or CL or any other team then you would be surprised at how many would watch it. If any Irish team qualifies for the CL you will fill Croke Park for each of their matches!!

I don't think this league needs bar stoolers or office workers/talkers to make this league a success. I think if every club does its best and improves with the help of the FAI and Government then it will work.

Irish football is quickly catching Scottish football for example and Scottish football has good support. Just watch Celtic this weekend, you may be surprised by how poor they really are.

Can we bin all talk of group stages of europe. That's exactly the type of talk that has the league in such a mess - clubs chasing the holy grail.

With the UEFA Cup and the CL restructuring coming in next season, I don't think saying that a LOI club could get to the group stages within the next 5 years is the pipe dream it once was - our league is getting better plus it will be easier to advance!

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Originally Posted by finnpark

If Pats qualify for UEFA cup or CL or any other team then you would be surprised at how many would watch it. If any Irish team qualifies for the CL you will fill Croke Park for each of their matches!!

I don't think this league needs bar stoolers or office workers/talkers to make this league a success. I think if every club does its best and improves with the help of the FAI and Government then it will work.

Irish football is quickly catching Scottish football for example and Scottish football has good support. Just watch Celtic this weekend, you may be surprised by how poor they really are.

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No arguement here about the quality of our league and the merits (or lack of) of the SPL. That is not my point. I'm sure they will get a good gate for their European games and didnt we all see what a good gate Shels got in Landsdown vs Depor. However these are flashes in the pan and not enough to sustain a club medium term and its dicey relying on a european run (a la Shels and Leeds Utd) for financial stability because you ahve to spend spend spend to ensure you get that run.

I have no doubt people will turn up for the 'big games' and that is my point. The great Irish sporting public are event junkies who will attend the big day out - the big hyped, shiney, glossy event but wont be back until the next big day out the following year or couple of years.

Irish people dont want to see Bohs v Rovers or Dundalk vs Limerick in any numbers and there in lies the problem. If your product doesnt sell or isnt fulfilling a basic need then you have to see if your product is worth selling at all.

Time for a radical rethink - wages will alway be a problem - thats a professional football problem not unique to Ireland. Either go totally amateur ( imo not a runner) or realistically look at an AIL (not necessarily Plat 1 propoasl). Somethings got to happen and soon.

The only silver bullet is significant government investment in stadium infrastructure combined with huge marketing spend from the FAI.

If that didn't happen when the Government coffers were overflowing then it certainly won't happen now.

Forcing adherence to the wage cap and pushing forward a coherent marketing approach is probably the most realistic options now available (current CPO approach is spotty, inconsistent and too depedent on the whims of the individual and club).

The core equation still doesn't make sense, we are a nation of football fans who won't watch our own football and we are almost unique in that respect. Nobody has ever given a coherent reason why this CAN'T be changed, all that we know is that like any significant behavioural change it will take a long time.

State of the League= TERRIBLE (Financially)

i think it just shows that semi-proffesional clubs is the only option, as a nation we can support pro clubs but as a SPL, Barclays Prem league loving nation we simply cant support players been payed big wages.

if people out there want to put big money into clubs i would love to see it going into stadiums and youth structures, maybe then top young players would come through then sold on, money going to player wages is just making things worse. if players want to earn 2000, 3000, 4000 euro etc i think they will have to go abroad (dont like saying it because league would lose quality players) but I think most would prefer to have a club to support (without every two years worrying about points deduction, or worse) then two, three years etc of success then relegation or going out of business.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The only silver bullet is significant government investment in stadium infrastructure combined with huge marketing spend from the FAI.

If that didn't happen when the Government coffers were overflowing then it certainly won't happen now.

Forcing adherence to the wage cap and pushing forward a coherent marketing approach is probably the most realistic options now available (current CPO approach is spotty, inconsistent and too depedent on the whims of the individual and club).

The core equation still doesn't make sense, we are a nation of football fans who won't watch our own football and we are almost unique in that respect. Nobody has ever given a coherent reason why this CAN'T be changed, all that we know is that like any significant behavioural change it will take a long time.

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Nail on head time - marketing and selling is key

BUT - allow me to ask you this - assume the league was better sold and marketed, and assume the grounds were better, do we genuinely think that there are enough people who are interested in football in ireland ? Bear in mind that watching MoTD is not being interested in football - reading the irish Times is not being interested in football.

I struggle to see whether there is enough people who even with a better matchday experience actually have an interest to tip up every week

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

The only way forward is if clubs start to live in the real world. Offering contracts of 3-4 years worth 100k+ a year is madness.

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This coming from a bohs fan is rather Ironic.
:confused:

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

I'd agree with the "big four" spending mad money but not the middle four. Bray, Rovers and UCD seem to be ok. Derry are ok but there chairman has hinted about going back part time.
In the bottom four Galway, Sligo, Harps all got into trouble for going Full-Time when they probably should have stayed part-time. Cobh are in trouble as in reality they are a small club and would always have difficulties competing.

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This would be covered under the honourable exceptions clause in my post. It's a general overview, not a precise look at every club.

Though we're bottom four and Sligo are middle four. But if things keep going, we'll be league winners in a few seasons, with Rovers and Bray on our tails. :)

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Originally Posted by gufct

This coming from a bohs fan is rather Ironic.

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What, he's not allowed be worried at how his own club is being run?

Look lads the main problem for the LoI is that there is no structure to football in this country. The juniors and the schoolboys have something akin to hatred for the LoI and that needs to be changed. It will be hard, Limerick tried bringing the juniors on last year to poor affect so I don't think the clubs will be able to alone, the FAI really need to pull the finger out on this issue in my opinion

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Originally Posted by jebus

Look lads the main problem for the LoI is that there is no structure to football in this country. The juniors and the schoolboys have something akin to hatred for the LoI and that needs to be changed.

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Agreed.

Also, clubs have the intellectual capa...silver bullet! Silver bullet!

The reality of the league is that we're talking about a having professional league that is run primarily on a voluntary basis. It's all very well having a CPO, and in a few notable exceptions a CEO, but the structures and lifeblood of many clubs are maintained by volunteers. That's pretty much always been the case and to a large extent that's why you see clubs come and go, go up and down. There is insufficient money in domestic football to make it worthwhile to run as sustainable business and therefore, the vast majority of people running clubs can only sustain it for so long - then they get tired or broke, or both and pass it on to the next generation

remembering back to Dundalk in the late 70s the board was made up primarily of business men, probably in their 40s-50s who loved football and Dundalk. they also knew a bit about business, were close enough to dublin to attract the largest pool of decent players and they paid well no doubt as well. But then they moved, on, passed on the mantle to the next generation.

So to some extent the problems are cyclical, but there's no doubt that the simultaneous combustion of mulltiple clubs that's happening now is unprecedented, or is it? Is it a case that we just didn't know about it because of the FAI licensing, closer scrutiny by the revenue commissioners etc have brought things out in to the open?

A few people have referred to structures throughout the game. Genesis 1, simply reiterated what the Ray Cass report had said a few years previosuly in relation to the FAIs structures of governance and although things have changed and there's a full executive there now, most of the pre-existing political structures, enclaves and cliques still exist.

So the solution? to some extent the FAI technical plan is required reading. It sets out the whole concept of creating a career path and options for players. Maximising their potential throughout their career. It's not just about centres of excellence, regional development officers etc, it's about pointing the entire football community towards the same goal - for me participation and playing standards are crucial. how do we get there? a few group hugs and a little bit of open-mindedness would help for starters.

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Originally Posted by Paraic

So to some extent the problems are cyclical, but there's no doubt that the simultaneous combustion of mulltiple clubs that's happening now is unprecedented, or is it? Is it a case that we just didn't know about it because of the FAI licensing, closer scrutiny by the revenue commissioners etc have brought things out in to the open?

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Hopefully, this is the reason why these problems are coming out in the open. There's nowhere to hide, it appears, with the FAI monitoring every club.

This season has seen more declarations of financial problems than I can remember but some of the clubs, esp. Cork, are generating more money than ever.

In the case of Cork, there have been three separate statements today on the issue. The RTÉ one issued figures, the Cork one denies these figures but doesn't deny the trouble and the FAI is tip-toeing.

I think only Cork really know the extent and are clearly unwilling to reveal all.

It's not bad news for the league, it's just a demonstration of how not to do run a club financially.

Cork have made thousands on the back of selling players in recent years and they must have picked some money in Europe and with the FAI and Premier Division prize money (however miniscule), yet they are in financial trouble.

Whereas, UCD haven't had any of the financial benefits of Cork in recent years but we don't hear of trouble in their camp.

The simple answer is Cork have been wasting their money.

Mention of grass roots football structures, buttering up the schoolboy leagues etc, marketing of the league and amateurs running professional clubs (that one certainly a reason for some of the financial mis management) is missing the glaringly obvious point that most Irish people dont want to watch Irish football. They just couldnt be arsed and until that changes or somthing radical happens to make that change - and someone above mentioned behavioural change is a long term thing - all the marketing, new stadiums, facilities, wage caps etc will not change a damn thing.

The league as we know it is almost dead, off the pitch at least. Which is a pity as the fare on the pitch is pretty good these days.

I think this discussion is an overreaction. The number of teams in each division is changing this winter, that should fix any problems that exist.

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Originally Posted by CMcC

Mention of grass roots football structures, buttering up the schoolboy leagues etc, marketing of the league and amateurs running professional clubs (that one certainly a reason for some of the financial mis management) is missing the glaringly obvious point that most Irish people dont want to watch Irish football. They just couldnt be arsed and until that changes or somthing radical happens to make that change - and someone above mentioned behavioural change is a long term thing - all the marketing, new stadiums, facilities, wage caps etc will not change a damn thing.

The league as we know it is almost dead, off the pitch at least. Which is a pity as the fare on the pitch is pretty good these days.

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I know what you mean about the interest just not being there, but the only way to reverse that is to get schoolboys and juniors involved, and try to win over a new generation of supporters that are kids at the moment

Is it true that Kildare players are guna go on strike????

Also All Ireland League is not the way forward, its about ten steps backwards...only one decent team up the north and they'd only finish mid table down here!!

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Originally Posted by Black and White

Is it true that Kildare players are guna go on strike????

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If they're not paid the money owed to them by September 13th then they will strike.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Can we bin all talk of group stages of europe. That's exactly the type of talk that has the league in such a mess - clubs chasing the holy grail.

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No, we can't. That genie's out of the bottle and it's not going back. If clubs go bust/scale back radically it creates an opportunity for an opportunistic board to streak ahead of the competition with a little investment, and the arms race begins anew (albeit at a slower pace next time.) Which is what will get someone there eventually and therefore not entirely a bad thing, although the rate of attrition will be a lot higher than it need be due to gross mismanagement.

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Originally Posted by jebus

I know what you mean about the interest just not being there, but the only way to reverse that is to get schoolboys and juniors involved, and try to win over a new generation of supporters that are kids at the moment

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While I understand the historic tension between various Limerick senior teams and the Limerick junior clubs I dont really think that is much of an issue (at least in Dublin). Whilst administrators of the junior clubs may havea problem with certain LoI sides, I dont think most junior players have any opinion whatsoever on LoI sides. Apathy is probably the depth of feeling - like your average footbally loving paddy i'm afraid.

Again the key problem for domestic football here is that nobody wants to go and watch it.

I think there's a danger with LoI fans thinking one of our clubs getting to the Champions League will automatically transfer the league into a wonderful place, full to the brim with new supporters converted back from the Premiership though. I just don't see that happeneing

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Nobody has ever given a coherent reason why this CAN'T be changed

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There is none. And I don't care about it either. What's more important is a reason how it CAN be changed.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

With the UEFA Cup and the CL restructuring coming in next season, I don't think saying that a LOI club could get to the group stages within the next 5 years is the pipe dream it once was - our league is getting better plus it will be easier to advance!

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Under the current system I think a club would have to be amazingly lucky to get into the group stages. Next season big changes so not possible to play the likes of Kiev & hardest team would be someone like Standard Liege (Belgium ranked 13th) so no impossible.

Not have a cut off other clubs due our new situation but clubs are paying very high wages & gambling against stadium or some other windfall. I think full time pro football can be sustained but obviously not at 200k wages.100k for the best players in the league is probably even too much. Drogs are a planning application decision away from financial reality & Bohs a court decision away from similar situation. They would likely not have debts but would mean massive changes on & off the pitch.

I don't know what the solution to the LOI but I have already had the "professional football can't work in Ireland" comment today. :(

[what does anybody think is about the right figure for a full time pro to be earning in LOI given that his career will be no more that say five years at the top.