Poor Standard of Ref's in the Eircom League.

Feel i have to rant about it.Im sure ye all agree with me too.Its the basic and obvious decisions that are the most annoying thing about it.Players and managers work hard on the training ground all week and can go out and play well but still come out on the wrong end of a game because of a ref.Too often this season refs decisions have been the "wild cards" that have won and lost games for teams.I know its part of football but in this league a decision by a ref seems to tip the balance more often.I think the answer is professional referees have to be brought in.As the league gets more professional the refs have to aswell.

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Originally Posted by eamo1

Feel i have to rant about it.Im sure ye all agree with me too.Its the basic and obvious decisions that are the most annoying thing about it.Players and managers work hard on the training ground all week and can go out and play well but still come out on the wrong end of a game because of a ref.Too often this season refs decisions have been the "wild cards" that have won and lost games for teams.I know its part of football but in this league a decision by a ref seems to tip the balance more often.I think the answer is professional referees have to be brought in.As the league gets more professional the refs have to aswell.

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Getting professional refs guarantees nothing. Look at the Premiership. This season has been the worst for some time as regards refereeing standards, bad judgment calls and inconsistency.

There is also add cost in having full time refs. It takes a long time to develop and train to become a good ref and even then some will get it wrong. Agree full time refs would (can only) improve the situation but it wont happen over night.

It is seriously brutal so far this year. At least MNS is highlighting that this is actually the case. If refs can recognise that it needs improvement and efforts are made to do so then its a step in the right direction.

I dunno, its a tough one but something has to be done.

"M is for the mistakes we sometimes make. ...Surely a bit of controversy is part of the games appeal."

I understand refs will make mistakes, but it's not unusual for refs in the league to get the rules wrong, eg Hancock let 2 UCD players rejoin the game against Rovers last weekend without waving them on (if he did subtlrly wave them on and I missed it he let one on from behind the goal line and one on so he could dive straight into a tackle!)

Buttimer doesn't even know how many subs a team is allowed to name ffs!

And Alan Kelly doesn't know that a goal stands even if it hits a post at the back of the net and comes back out!

Eddie Foley could be a great linesman....if it wasnt for that damned offside rule

With every game in the premier now being recorded for MNS the referees should have the decency to admit mistakes. Wes Charles should never have got a straight red last week and Anto Murphy should receive a warning for unsporting behaviour at the very least :mad:

I'm not a ref but I've always felt that blaming the officials is a total cop out.

Yes there have been times over the years where I felt we had been done huge injustices (play off in Drogheda (Feb'03) anyone?), but overall, you do ttyour work on the pitch, you hope for your share of fair play and good luck and you accept the outcomes as being overall a fair reflection of what you put in.

The heavy reliance of the governing body on Dublin based officials always has our paranoia atennae raised, so if there is genuine bias - let's produce a few refs of our own.

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Originally Posted by MyTown

I'm not a ref but I've always felt that blaming the officials is a total cop out.

Yes there have been times over the years where I felt we had been done huge injustices (play off in Drogheda (Feb'03) anyone?), but overall, you do ttyour work on the pitch, you hope for your share of fair play and good luck and you accept the outcomes as being overall a fair reflection of what you put in.

The heavy reliance of the governing body on Dublin based officials always has our paranoia atennae raised, so if there is genuine bias - let's produce a few refs of our own.

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I'm sorry, but its not a one or two mistakes thing, this is big decisions EVERY game which change games. Its never solely the refs fault but they certainly have more of an impact than they should.

My example above. It is clear to all that Eddie Foley actually doesnt understand the offside rule, e.g. he gave offside from a throw in recently.

I dont go in for this Dublin bias thing I just think they're ****e.

They are amateur/volunteer referees & they make mistakes. I am sure they don't do it deliberately. For my money it is the linesmen that are the problem - a lot of them let the referee make decisions when the ball is out of play...

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Originally Posted by micls

I dont go in for this Dublin bias thing I just think they're ****e.

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I am going to print this off and frame it. Finally, a Cork fan who realises there is no such thing as a Dublin bias.

Referees are always going to make mistakes. It's pretty hard to get everything 100 per cent right but what annoys me is the whole jersey farce that Buttimer keeps stirring up. It lowers the credibility of the league and it's just fussiness taken to the extreme.

Apart from that, I don't tend to remember which referees make which poor decisions considering there are so many.

Also, AFAIK, the top leagues do not have full time refs. IIRC, Pierluigi Collina and Graham Poll were two of a very few group that were full-time refs.

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Originally Posted by pete

They are amateur/volunteer referees & they make mistakes. I am sure they don't do it deliberately. For my money it is the linesmen that are the problem - a lot of them let the referee make decisions when the ball is out of play...

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Amateurs/volunteers don't get paid about 400-500 quid a game Pete. But I'd agree the linesmen are worse.

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Originally Posted by seand

I understand refs will make mistakes, but it's not unusual for refs in the league to get the rules wrong, eg Hancock let 2 UCD players rejoin the game against Rovers last weekend without waving them on (if he did subtlrly wave them on and I missed it he let one on from behind the goal line and one on so he could dive straight into a tackle!)

Buttimer doesn't even know how many subs a team is allowed to name ffs!

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Indeed. The linesman at one of our home games (I think Sligo but I'm not certain) repeatedly gave throw ins when the ball was on the line and one of our players was given offside from a throw in pre-season.

Making mistakes over whether a tackle was a foul or close offsides is annoying but understandable (we've all given out about tackles at games and then changed our minds after seeing them on TV) but there's no excuse for well-paid refs not knowing simple rules.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Also, AFAIK, the top leagues do not have full time refs. IIRC, Pierluigi Collina and Graham Poll were two of a very few group that were full-time refs.

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It's only the Premier League in England that have full-time contracted officials - Howard Webb (who is the best referee in England at the moment) will be the only Full-Time official at the European Championships this summer.

The only real advantage of having full timers is that they're fitter physical wise - stamina and such improved. The training sessions and feedback meetings that they have on the Select Group in England do happen here as well.

As Dave McKeon said on MNS - the top 8 or 9 officials on the list basically fit in the demands made of officials if they were full time anyway (training several times a week - if not every day, video reviews of games etc)


We have 50 or so officials on the Panel in the eL - if we apply the English model to this then it'll cost the FAI the grand total of €5,150,000 per year to pay them on the standard contract used in this field.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

Amateurs/volunteers don't get paid about 400-500 quid a game Pete. But I'd agree the linesmen are worse.

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Fair enough but it is not like we can fire the existing refs & promote all those brilliant refs who are being held back. I have no reason to believe the current refs are not the best in Ireland.

alot of the problem is the fact dont explain decisions after games mns is a forum why not let ref come on and explain why he balls it up or why he believes he is right, only a thought:D

My pet hate is the linesmen who wait for the referee to award a corner, goal kick and whatever which way the throw ins go, only then move their flag in the direction that the ref gives. Cowards!

Tonight and over the weekend take notice of who the culprits are - these linos with no balls of their own should be named and shamed.:mad:

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Also, AFAIK, the top leagues do not have full time refs. IIRC, Pierluigi Collina and Graham Poll were two of a very few group that were full-time refs.

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Collina was an accountant. His current position may be full time, but he was a part time ref.

Refereeing is bloody tough. The number of calls I get wrong from the stands is enormous. The ref might be a bit closer, but he still only has one pair of eyes and a very human brain. I'm forever ****ed off at people who watch six replays of a close call on TV before making a biased judgement that fits their first impression and criticising the referee for not making the same call.

However, a number of good points have been raised above regarding refs making errors regarding the rules. This is something that should and can be rectified.

we need a completely independent body to monitor their performances using the footage which rte now have, with a situation where the refs can be suspended for poor performances.

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Originally Posted by BobtheDrog

we need a completely independent body to monitor their performances using the footage which rte now have, with a situation where the refs can be suspended for poor performances.

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ye i agree with that big time

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Originally Posted by lofty9

My pet hate is the linesmen who wait for the referee to award a corner, goal kick and whatever which way the throw ins go, only then move their flag in the direction that the ref gives. Cowards!

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Agreed. Lets face it they are not going to call a throw in or corner then aside form offside nothing else to do.

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Originally Posted by pete

Agreed. Lets face it they are not going to call a throw in or corner then aside form offside nothing else to do.

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On this case, in the Bray Bohs game, the lino flagged for a corner and the ref over-ruled him and gave a peno. Maybe some of them are afraid that they won't be listened to if they object to the ref.

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Originally Posted by lofty9

My pet hate is the linesmen who wait for the referee to award a corner, goal kick and whatever which way the throw ins go, only then move their flag in the direction that the ref gives. Cowards!

Tonight and over the weekend take notice of who the culprits are - these linos with no balls of their own should be named and shamed.:mad:

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1. Rhona Daly?

In one game Alan Kelly let a physio on to treat a player and let him treat him on the pitch there and then for a minor knock.Its fine letting a player get treated for an Eduardo type injury but this was a minor thing and amazingly the bohs player got up after a second or 2.He then was allowed play on and didnt have to go to the touchline.This was a glaringly obvious rule infringment by the ref.2 of my friends who only come to e.l games occassionaly were shocked at it.I was embarassed but not surprised.
And dont get me started on linesman decisions,especially for offsides.

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Originally Posted by seand

Buttimer doesn't even know how many subs a team is allowed to name ffs!

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We have him tomorrow :(:mad:

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Originally Posted by Hitman

1. Rhona Daly?

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:eek: Was just about to post that.:D

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Originally Posted by superfrank

I am going to print this off and frame it. Finally, a Cork fan who realises there is no such thing as a Dublin bias.

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He was only on about refs though, thats only one part of the Dublin bias ;)

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Originally Posted by BobtheDrog

we need a completely independent body to monitor their performances using the footage which rte now have, with a situation where the refs can be suspended for poor performances.

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this develops what i was trying to say , bob the drog hits it right on the head where we all work there is reviews and performance assessments so why not for referees , if you dont do the job properly then you pay, they will say this is all ready in place with refs inspectors but how in the world does this work when you have pat kelly assessing his two sons do you think he is going to reprimand his own flesh and blood

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Originally Posted by superfrank

On this case, in the Bray Bohs game, the lino flagged for a corner and the ref over-ruled him and gave a peno. Maybe some of them are afraid that they won't be listened to if they object to the ref.

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Maybe this is the way linesmen and referees communicate a penalty decision;)

thats why its so important for it to be independent, theres no way to improve the standard of refereeing otherwise as long as you have a situation like you do with the kellys then its pointless for the current body to exist.

it would also be great to see a group for identifying incidents that refs might mis and acting as an appeals board, we now have cameras at all premier division grounds so you have to feel that we're now in a better position to do this

Is that his name,Tourmey?He goes straight to the top of the list for poor Ref performances this season,was brutal in terryland tonight.I didnt get a match prog so dont know his name.If a ref in a premiership game makes a mistake he gets demoted for a few weeks to reffing league 1 games.maybe a stint in the leinster senior league for Kelly,Tourmey etc would cure them

Tomney is his name, and he's a...don't get me started. It's way, way beyond the usual incompetence in his case. Small man complex if you ask me.

and of course his father is a former referee and Refs inspector. Nepotism is alive and well in the refs society.

Bad referees are the bane of Irish football, at every level and every age. If Alan Kelly is the best ref in the LOI then Heather Mills is a selfless, caring woman, who just wants the best for her daughter.

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Originally Posted by pete

They are amateur/volunteer referees & they make mistakes. I am sure they don't do it deliberately. For my money it is the linesmen that are the problem - a lot of them let the referee make decisions when the ball is out of play...

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Spot on Pete. These games are difficult enough for part-time refs and they get no help whatsoever from the lino. It would be totally incorrect to refer to them as Assistants 'cos most of the time, they leave the ref alone to make the big decisions. It's as if they are fitted with a time delay switch that means they can only move their flag after a referee has blown up for something.

I'm sure many a word is exchanged in their dressing room after a game.

I do feel for ref's it is a tough thank less job that then do. Something however that does annoy me is the inconsistence that appear from the ref during a game.

At the Wexford Youths v Longford game last night two Wexford players got booked for back chat and rightly so I believe any player who gives back chat should be booked. My got on my nerves was several Longford players also gave back chat and some players on more than one occasion gave back chat and were not booked.

Maybe what was said was worse but what do you have to say to be booked by ref and not say back chat is back chat. :confused:

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Originally Posted by skitz3

Bad referees are the bane of Irish football, at every level and every age. If Alan Kelly is the best ref in the LOI then Heather Mills is a selfless, caring woman, who just wants the best for her daughter.

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:D:D very good

I think Neil Doyle is the biggest excuse for a referee ever, its rediculous how he is allowed to take charge of games!, i wouldnt have him reffing in schoolboys football!

i don't wanna say there is an anti shelbourne bias in the first division but some of the decisions have been ridiculous last season and this. on friday alan keely was actually givin a yellow card for clearing the ball in to touch for a throw in. i just feel embaressed when i see refs like this.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Tomney is his name, and he's a...don't get me started. It's way, way beyond the usual incompetence in his case. Small man complex if you ask me.

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We had him on the opening day vs Harps and he was terrible. He refereed our next game vs Galway and he was worse (he awarded offside from a throw) and we had him again vs St. Pats and he was again poor.
He is without a doubt the worst referee in the league.

We had Neil Doyle the other night vs UCD and he was pretty poor. He seems to pick a side before the match and favours them for the rest of the match.

The best referee from what i've seen this season is Anthony Buttimer. Contraversial I know, but he seems to be the one referee who explains his decisons. He reffed when we played City and I must say he did a fantastic job.