Secret All-Ireland league talks at 'advanced' stage

From the Indo

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Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.

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There's more detail in the full article.

Its not a secret anymore ..... love this. Its the most logical thing to do to try and advance both leagues.

Aren't people always saying how a team needs a national league under the jurisdiction of the football association of the country, or otherwise they won't be allowed a national team? (or something like that)

How would this combined league affect that rule? Or is that what "UEFA....and FIFA will give the necessary backing to the venture" is referring to?

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Secret All-Ireland league talks at 'advanced' stage
By Daniel McDonnell
Tuesday December 11 2007
Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.
The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.
They have been given reason to believe that governments in the North and South would be receptive to the project and are confident that UEFA -- who have been informally sounded out -- and FIFA will give the necessary backing to the venture.
Now, they are looking to put an attractive final package together by January with the necessary levels of support and a business plan to convince the two football associations to give the green light to press forward.
Their involvement is pivotal so that any league including the island's top clubs would be capable of gaining the places to compete in European competition.
"If the FAI and the IFA want to buy into it then everyone is happy," says one club source.
"It would be difficult to proceed without their support.
"There's a bigger picture here. Certainly, there are very professional people involved in this project and there is a lot of excitement about what can be achieved.
"This could be very big for football in this country and is capable of bringing it to the next level."
The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs -- Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United -- to discuss grievances regarding their participation agreement with the FAI and the wage cap thats coming into place next season.
However, those discussions have snowballed with other parties being sought out for advice and to ascertain their interest as the desire for a full time professional All-Ireland league emerged as the ultimate objective.
Tentative discussions have taken place with a television company who are willing to offer their backing to the venture.
Other league members, who were not part of the original group of six, have now asked to be kept aware of developments as the project grows wings and some have been invited to subsequent gatherings.
Regardless of the success of the plan, the 22 eircom League clubs are preparing to lobby the FAI for the re-drafting of the participation agreement amid widespread unhappiness at its implementation.

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Here it is.

The devil will be in the detail, but once it's not a closed shop and has promotion and relegation out of the remain leagues, then I'd be broadly supportive of such a move. Not sure how they'll get around the whole different calendars though, either for the all ireland league or the remain FAI/IFA leagues...

I'd be against any moves towards an All-Ireland league. It will concentrate development and growth similar to what is happening in rugby - ie provinces versus clubs. It will benefit the elite and discard the rest.

Also a league of six IL and six LOI teams seems unbalanced to me. Should it not be 4 IL teams and 8 LOI teams or 2 IL teams and 10 LOI teams? People have been complaining for years about the number of Dublin clubs but an United Ireland league would result in the geographical concentration of clubs even move. There'll be 7 clubs located in Northern Ireland and 4 clubs in the Dublin region. Only 1 club will represent the rest of the country - a population of 2.5 million people - nearly half the population of the total island.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Also a league of six IL and six LOI teams seems unbalanced to me. Should it not be 4 IL teams and 8 LOI teams or 2 IL teams and 10 LOI teams? People have been complaining for years about the number of Dublin clubs but an United Ireland league would result in the geographical concentration of clubs even move. There'll be 7 clubs located in Northern Ireland and 4 clubs in the Dublin region. Only 1 club will represent the rest of the country - a population of 2.5 million people - nearly half the population of the total island.

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The top clubs will be at the top, it might take five years but thats what will happen. Thats the beauty of football, its competition all the time and the best usually come out on top. Thats what fans, players, clubs and any stakeholder would want in theory. If clubs want to be at the top then they need to improve, simple as.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

I'd be against any moves towards an All-Ireland league. It will concentrate development and growth similar to what is happening in rugby - ie provinces versus clubs. It will benefit the elite and discard the rest.

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I'm not saying you're wrong and this won't happen, but one big difference with rugby is that there is no pyramid system in place in rugby. No matter how good Shannon or St Mary's or whoever are, they won't get promoted with a province being relegated.

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Originally Posted by A face

The top clubs will be at the top, it might take five years but thats what will happen. Thats the beauty of football, its competition all the time and the best usually come out on top. Thats what fans, players, clubs and any stakeholder would want in theory. If clubs want to be at the top then they need to improve, simple as.

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Yes but are not the majority of "top clubs" on the island playing in the LOI. How many full-time teams are there in IL football? How many in LOI football?

If a 12 league is implemented, and each league is represented by 6 teams, which LOI teams should be included and which teams excluded? Pats, Shamrock Rovers, Bohs, Drogheda, Cork and Derry all have to be included. But then you have other LOI teams that are professional or much further down the professional route than the vast majority of IL clubs. What will happen to them? Do you honestly think that this clubs will be able to continue towards professionalism if they are excluded from the top league of this ALL-Ireland league? Their place in the new league will be taken by teams of a lower quality standard from the IL. If the Setanta Cup has demonstrated anything, it is that there exists a quality gap between the two league. Only Linfield and Glentoran in patches have been competitive against LOI opposition.

I think an All ireland league would be brilliant as long as all clubs get a chance to compete with promotion and relegation and not just a break away league for the top clubs in the FAI and IFA, but why not make it bigger than 12 teams 16 or so. hopefully this could increase crowds and development.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Also a league of six IL and six LOI teams seems unbalanced to me. Should it not be 4 IL teams and 8 LOI teams or 2 IL teams and 10 LOI teams? People have been complaining for years about the number of Dublin clubs but an United Ireland league would result in the geographical concentration of clubs even move. There'll be 7 clubs located in Northern Ireland and 4 clubs in the Dublin region. Only 1 club will represent the rest of the country - a population of 2.5 million people - nearly half the population of the total island.

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Where do you get the idea that it'd have to be a 12 team league, with 6 teams each from the FAI and the IFA?

The article makes no such claims, it says that the idea of an all-ireland league is being driven forward by 6 (named) eL sides.

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Originally Posted by sliced pan

I think an All ireland league would be brilliant as long as all clubs get a chance to compete with promotion and relegation and not just a break away league for the top clubs in the FAI and IFA, but why not make it bigger than 12 teams 16 or so. hopefully this could increase crowds and development.

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It would have to be a breakaway league, with both national assoc.'s maintaining a lower league to ensure the survival of the national teams. Presumably some method of promotion/relegation would be agree with the IFA & FAI leagues, maybe the winner of each play each other for automatic promotion etc.

I'd agree about a 16 team league.

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If a 12 league is implemented, and each league is represented by 6 teams, which LOI teams should be included and which teams excluded?

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The fairest way would be through sporting merit. Say the top 6 teams in the eL and top 4 in the IL gain automatic entry to the new league. Then a mini league (like the champions league or setanta cup 1st round) could supply the remaining 6 teams. The big problem with this would be the differences in the playing seasons. Perhaps there'll be a year of 'spring soccer' (IL starts earlier, eL starts later or vv) before all teams migrate to either summer or winter football in the brand new league?

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Originally Posted by incident

Where do you get the idea that it'd have to be a 12 team league, with 6 teams each from the FAI and the IFA?

The article makes no such claims, it says that the idea of an all-ireland league is being driven forward by 6 (named) eL sides.

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This isn't the first newspaper article on the subject and this idea has been talked about at length before. It's anyone's guess as to what the make-up of this league would be - a 12 team league with equal representation from both leagues is my educated guess.

Well until someone comes up with a prefect solution then i think everyone can agree that its a given there would be problems and obstacles to overcome. To say there wouldn't be is just madness.

Compromise is the name of the day imo, no nimby type attitudes will help this process.

How does this sound...

16 team Premier League

Drogheda
St Pats
Cork
Derry
Bohs
UCD
Sligo
Shamrock
Linfield
Glens
Cliftonville
Ports
Dungannon
Glenavon
Newry
Ballymena

if galway are full time and sligo arent then im pretty sure they will be featuring in that league.

Btw, im assuming it must be setanta - the broadcaster being spoken about?! It would be interesting to see how much they would pay in sponsorship, they have always seemed quite generous.

How would promotion/relegation work? For example, how would the 1st division work, would it just go revert to teams within EL and IL in a playoff at the end of every season to see who got promoted?
It wouldn't really be feasible for the likes of cobh to travel all the way up north. But then if its not implemented throughout all divisions then it would really break up the geographic playing area....

why not an all ireland league with three divisions top 8 or so from loi and il form new all-island prem
the rest of loi prem and il prem form new all-island first div and current loi and il first div's form second div

Straight relegation / promotion. If your going to make it an all ireland league then you should go the whole hog
I think uefa and fifa would make an exception for the international teams to remain due to the exceptional political circumstances in the north

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

why not an all ireland league with three divisions top 8 or so from loi and il form new all-island prem
the rest of loi prem and il prem form new all-island first div and current loi and il first div's form second div

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Travel and associated costs make it a no-no below the top few clubs.

All Ireland League hasn't worked in the lower divisions in rugby for exactly these reasons.

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Originally Posted by A face

Compromise is the name of the day imo, no nimby type attitudes will help this process.

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On the basis that both national associations will probably be against the whole concept (in a turkeys voting for Christmas manner), I would say thats its about anything but compromise.

My reading is that this is a breakaway League which will go ahead regardless of national association approval and with full knowledge that there may be no European representation.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

My reading is that this is a breakaway League which will go ahead regardless of national association approval and with full knowledge that there may be no European representation.

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ORA,

Do you expect that Northern Irish teams (other than Derry City) will be participants in this breakaway league?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Travel and associated costs make it a no-no below the top few clubs.

All Ireland League hasn't worked in the lower divisions in rugby for exactly these reasons.

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Well then ffs if they can't afford to travel on a small island like our own then let them die a natural death it would be better for the league in the long run. I think if it comes to the crunch these clubs will find the money and if they don't then tough. how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country. progress is painfull but we cant stand still because it wouldn't be fair for a few clubs to go bust, if goes on as it is much longer then all clubs will go bust eventually because the league WILL die

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country

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Can you explain how this is the case? There are lots of things holding back football in this country, but you've focused on the poor clubs. Which ones?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

My reading is that this is a breakaway League which will go ahead regardless of national association approval and with full knowledge that there may be no European representation.

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That sounds pretty reckless. You'd be effectively talking about a league that has no FIFA or UEFA recognition. It's pure speculation on my behalf but that could result in players in the league not being allowed to play at international level depriving the league of potential underage internationals.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Well then ffs if they can't afford to travel on a small island like our own then let them die a natural death it would be better for the league in the long run. I think if it comes to the crunch these clubs will find the money and if they don't then tough. how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country. progress is painfull but we cant stand still because it wouldn't be fair for a few clubs to go bust, if goes on as it is much longer then all clubs will go bust eventually because the league WILL die

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Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?!

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

[QUOTE=OneRedArmy;836321]Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?![/QUOTE]

Not much less than there is to see Kildare v Kilkenny or Monaghan I'd say:)

I agree though. Any lower divisions should be regionalised.

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Originally Posted by Postman

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

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Cannot speak on behalf of all Linfield fans, so offer just my own opinion.

Providing the future of the Northern Ireland international team was "ringfenced", I would be broadly supportive of the concept of a full time, professional, AI League - I believe that it would progress Linfield Football Club to a new level.

It is also worth bearing in mind that relationships between Linfield FC and the IFA are somewhat strained at present - court case pending!

There is a lot of ill feeling amongst a section of the Linfield support towards the IFA - on my way to Institute a couple of Saturdays ago, I was lambasted on my SC bus by some of our club members for being a Norn Iron fan.:eek:

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?!

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I think something as drastic as a complete reform of the league structure is needed to re-invigorate football on this island north and south because constant tinkering (10 team league 12 team league summer football et al) and half measures (new superdooper FAI loi) have done jack to raise the profile of the league. to go back to your previous post about travel expenses I dont see how travelling to NI would be more expensive than say monaghan travelling to cobh to use just one example so if a club cant afford to travel to games within a league then they have no business being in such a league. its time to get ruthless, I personally feel that the public north and south would have a more interest in an all island league for the novelty factor to begin with but will stay when they realise the quality on offer

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Originally Posted by Postman

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

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In fairness to Linfield and Glens (and Ports) fans I think the Setanta has proved that their political opinions haven't stopped them being fully behind an All Ireland competition.

However undoubtedly the future of the NI national team would be a big issue for them if was affected by plans for an All Ireland league.

Typical lunancy from those involved.

A fast track to potential financial meltdown. This from those who bought you
- “Summer football is the answer”
- “Merging with the FAI is the answer”

It is typical of the attitude amongst clubs that we can’t attempt to build for the future, we try and bust the gates open without thinking the thing through.

Most of those involved in the LOI are those who oppose the wage cap, after voting enthusiastically for the participation agreement, and berating those who raised genuine concerns. Rather than sit down and re-assess whether full time football is the answer, the Icarus complex in LOI boardrooms comes to the fore. “We’ll lose a €1m this year? Aye, sure we’ll just blow another fortune in an AIL”.

Think about the improvements we could have made to stadia and off the field infrastructure if we had stayed part time, rather than blowing huge sums of cash in wages on average players. It doesn’t matter if you are playing Linfield or Longford, if facilities and the “entertainment factor” aren’t there, the crowds will not return. This move may have saved the game in the 70s, but it wouldn’t now.

If the rumours are true there are some serious punters involved in this proposal and I’d wouldn’t be surprised it to be come to fruition.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Can you explain how this is the case? There are lots of things holding back football in this country, but you've focused on the poor clubs.

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I realise that there are more issues holding back football in this country but as ORA stated the main reason for not advocating an AI league was because some clubs would not be able to afford travel expenses I don't think this is a reason to scrap what could be a great opportunity to save football in this country. from time to time it is neccessary to trim off the dead leaves, having said that having a three division league will give the "lesser" clubs somwhere to go (ie dropping down a div) as apposed to being dumped into some make weight league outside of the main structure

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Which ones?

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you'd have to ask ORA that he's the one who thinks there are clubs who cannot afford to be in the league not me

I would agree with Not Brazil. Strongly in favour of AIL but on the basis that the two national teams remain. If they don't remain it won't happen, simple as that.

A first division N and first division S below the AIL premier division would have its attractions: we'd get much bigger crowds playing Armagh City say than say Waterford United. There would have to be a pyramid in place though.
There'd be bigger issues for the smaller clubs in the North though - they have many more small clubs for their population than down south and some would have to drop into Div 2 north.
The whole go it alone concept is interesting...would the teams really break away from their national associations? How would FAI/IFA/UEFA/FIFA react, and what could they do? Could they then restrict players registrations or something?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

That sounds pretty reckless. You'd be effectively talking about a league that has no FIFA or UEFA recognition. It's pure speculation on my behalf but that could result in players in the league not being allowed to play at international level depriving the league of potential underage internationals.

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Not reckless at all.

If you are of the firm belief that the only long-term future for football in Ireland is to have an all-island league, then what would be reckless would be for the associations to stand in the way of that development, and for clubs to just go 'ah well' if they do. If something is the right thing to do, you do it.

Secondly - withdrawal of European slots would be a threat/bargaining chip. In reality, it would make a laughing stock of the FAI and IFA in world football if they lost control of the senior level of football on this island. So in reality that won't happen. They may use European slots to try to scare and bully teams - they may even deny those slots for a year or two if an all-island league started without their consent. But sooner of later they'd have to cave in, as a football association that is excluded form the highest level of football in its own country is instantly meaningless. The FAI/IFA needs control of senior football on this island more than those senior teams need their brief flirtations with Euroopean fopotball once a year. Why else do you think the FA have caved in time and time again in English football ?

The relative position of power of the top clubs in England compared to the FA and the top Irish clubs compared to the FAI and the IFA are not the same. The FA needs those clubs on board and lot more than the Irish associations need theirs.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

But sooner of later they'd have to cave in, as a football association that is excluded form the highest level of football in its own country is instantly meaningless. The FAI/IFA needs control of senior football on this island more than those senior teams need their brief flirtations with European football once a year. Why else do you think the FA have caved in time and time again in English football ?

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I'm not so sure that the FAI need the clubs more than the clubs need them.

Given that the European performances are just "brief flirtations", the role they play in promoting the FAI is limited.

And I'd say the threat of no European places would stop a lot of players from wanting to play in the new league.

Looking at the worst case scenario if clubs and the FAI never agree, I'd say the clubs have more to lose.

And the English FA are dealing with clubs who provide the backbone of their national team, clubs who provide protracted and high-level exposure at European level, clubs with a high percentage of foreign internationals, circumstances which make it critical that the FA be involved. I don't think you can compare that with the eL.

On the question of how this affects the national teams, has it not been pointed out in the past that a national league is not required as long as a national association and national cup competition remains? Basically as long as the FAI and IFA cups are still played for the national teams will not be affected. Isn't this what happens in some of the smaller countries like Andorra? Sorry if I'm totally wrong, but nearly sure it was mentioned before.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

The relative position of power of the top clubs in England compared to the FA and the top Irish clubs compared to the FAI and the IFA are not the same. The FA needs those clubs on board and lot more than the Irish associations need theirs.

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That's absolutely the case. There's a strong and well founded suspicion that the real interest of the FAI begins and ends with the national team.

I'm not so sure of the extra attraction of an AIL anyhow. The Setanta has shown that people aren't falling over themselves, even to see the better Northern teams (the only exception to this might be Derry v Linfield.)

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

you'd have to ask ORA that he's the one who thinks there are clubs who cannot afford to be in the league not me

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Most clubs can't afford to be in the League as it is, never mind if you add in more time off work to be paid for players and longer journeys.

As Maribor says dose of financial reality required allround.

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Originally Posted by David

I would agree with Not Brazil. Strongly in favour of AIL but on the basis that the two national teams remain. If they don't remain it won't happen, simple as that.

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Would agree with that.