Terracing

Don't know if this has come up here before but with so many clubs trying to build new grounds, or at least renevateold ones, isn't it now time for LOI sides to look into safe terrracing like they have in Germany? If there is one advantage we have over the Premiership it is the atmosphere you get where people can stand wherever they want. What we don't want is a situation where you have allocated seating like in the premiership.
There is no reason that you can't have the best of both worlds though. If our boards want to be corporate w__res then let them but leave something for the real fans. New grounds at least could easilly accomodae a corporate section (Let them eat prawns!) and family areas as well as leaving something for the real fans. You can't beat the atmosphere of being on a tightly packed terrace.

Opinions?

I know it only applies to a few clubs but for European matches you can only sell tickets for the seats. People always stand together in the seated areas anyway.... apart from in Sligo where you are told to sit down on be thrown out

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Originally Posted by derrymac

I know it only applies to a few clubs but for European matches you can only sell tickets for the seats. People always stand together in the seated areas anyway.... apart from in Sligo where you are told to sit down on be thrown out

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In Germany though they have special seating that slides accross (I think) for Euro games).

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Don't know if this has come up here before but with so many clubs trying to build new grounds, or at least renevateold ones, isn't it now time for LOI sides to look into safe terrracing like they have in Germany? If there is one advantage we have over the Premiership it is the atmosphere you get where people can stand wherever they want. What we don't want is a situation where you have allocated seating like in the premiership.
There is no reason that you can't have the best of both worlds though. If our boards want to be corporate w__res then let them but leave something for the real fans. New grounds at least could easilly accomodae a corporate section (Let them eat prawns!) and family areas as well as leaving something for the real fans. You can't beat the atmosphere of being on a tightly packed terrace.

Opinions?

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Indeed BP, but it seems more clubs are trying to move towards the all-seater stadia rather than some terracing. I sit at matches but I still like a bit of terracing at times and the atmosphere at times was unreal, ie."The Jungle", "The Shed" etc..We are making the Brandywell all-seater, 10,000 or so, here's a pic of Shrewsbury's who we are basing the same as their ground

http://www.newmeadow.com/spgm/gal/aerial_jul07/08.jpg


It looks pretty impressive and ours will look the same. I think more clubs want to modernise their grounds and leave terracing behind.

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Originally Posted by City till I Die

It looks pretty impressive and ours will look the same. I think more clubs want to modernise their grounds and leave terracing behind.

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Yeah I like the New Meadow that it is not one of these soul less bowl type stadia but I still think you can have modern and terracing in the same stadia - which is why I used the German example.

Recent Gaurdian article:
Lets make a stand

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Yeah I like the New Meadow that it is not one of these soul less bowl type stadia but I still think you can have modern and terracing in the same stadia - which is why I used the German example.

Recent Gaurdian article:
Lets make a stand

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the german terracing is also safer than seats, if people want to stand give them an area to stand in instead of them having to stand in seated areas resulting in injuries from people falling over seats when teams score and seats getting etc. it also would help seperate the rowdy/noisey fans away from familes etc. Ive seen the german terracing and it is alot safer and more modern than the crappy plastic seats you get in Ireland/england. I still prefer the italian method though, get a terrace and nail planks of wood or bits of plastic to it and number them for seats :)

A bit of concrete either side of the Donie Forde would do the job imo.
There's currently a bill being drafted for the Commons to conditionally allow terraces back in the Premier and Champion ships.

In odense, they have a practically all seater stadium with the corners left open for terracing (on the same size steps etc as the seats). The away end also has a standing area. It doens't detract from the look of the venue.

The German thing might be ideal but our clubs are broke and obviously can't afford top of the range grounds. Oh and "real football fans" will always have a place but there's less than a 1,000 of them at each ground. The rest of the crowd, and those who don't go, prefer to sit.

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Originally Posted by derrymac

I know it only applies to a few clubs but for European matches you can only sell tickets for the seats. People always stand together in the seated areas anyway.... apart from in Sligo where you are told to sit down on be thrown out

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We'll have a big crowd for our game saturday week so ye can all go behind the goal then where there are no seats;)

I love terracing. It's so much better for atmosphere. I think the best atmosphere we ever got going was at the 2005 Cup Semi in Drogs when they were a couple of hundred Bray fans cramped into that small away stand.

I think the German grounds have the terraces down to a tee. They are pretty big and some of those clubs easily have the best atmosphere in Europe, especially Schalke and Bochum. Definitely something that should be looked into.

ah some joined up thinking, unfortunitly it would require a brave move and some smarts by the fai and i cant see that happening we will follow the fifa line of all seating as the way forward

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/sports_talk/1710431.stm

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Originally Posted by passerrby

ah some joined up thinking, unfortunitly it would require a brave move and some smarts by the fai and i cant see that happening we will follow the fifa line of all seating as the way forward

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I think that the 1st time anyone on here has vere out smart & FAI on the same sentance

I don't this is a big issue as its not as if we need the extra capacity that terracing provides. The only sold out domestic game I can remember is Cork v Derry City on last day of 2005. I think sold out games are very uncommon.

http://www.footballgroundz.co.uk/pictures/rushden1.jpg

Rushden & Diamonds have a blinding ground, 3 sides all seated with a terrace behind 1 goal, it's like a mini Premier League ground with unbelievable facilities.

The terrace is great, I prefer to stand watching football and it's becoming less and less possible to do it.

I know from a DCFC point of view the additional cost of "safe standing" is why we probably won't be pursuing it, if and when, we move forward

i used to live in Dortmund and their south terrace was amazing for a league game and easily converted to half capacity when seated for EUropean or FIFA games. The seats were fold down sturdy metal integrated into the barriers.

I'm all for that approach. At the Setanta Cup final this year I was dying to get up on me feet and properly cheer the lads on but because we were in an all seater stand the less partisan fans wanted us to "sit down - you're ruining it for everyone".

so we moved seats - stood and cheered and that was fine but I wouldn't like to see a situation where all seated became the norm. You need to be standing to get the atmosphere going. Been to premiership all seater games and they do not come close the atmosphere in Dortmund and other major terraced venues. Same thing applies on the smaller (but no less important) scale of our own league

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

Hopefully we can follow the improvements to English soccer since they introduced all seater stadia

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Thats if you think English football has improved.

How many sports channels were broadcast back then? Go figure

what the greyhound board has done here is legend and maybe there's room for that in the eLoI product and if so, great! More fans, more revenues etc. etc.

we're at a completely different stage to the english game - just look at rushden and diamonds stadium. Their football standard wouldn't come close but their facilities are amazing. Sometimes I'd hesitate to use the word stadium in connection with an eLoI ground cos they aren't integrated facilities just a collection of places to stand or sit around a pitch.

What I'd love to see is somethin like the grey hound effort on one of the long sides for your prawn sandwich types etc. all seater on opposite long side - away fans in short end all seater (to stifle their chances of creating and atmos) and a terrace behind opposite goal for home fans. you still get 3/4 for Euro games or put in safe standing.

Just another point on the prawn sandwich types and again to look at Borussia Dortmund. They force their corporate patrons into their seats for the game. There are no boxes just a communal area within one stand where companies sponsor a standing table to lean against with your beer. Borussia are all about the football - there's room for more than one way of doing a stadium or increasing revenues

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Originally Posted by all drogged up

what the greyhound board has done here is legend

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Pat yourself on the back for that, your taxes paid for it.

well fair enough - they had it paid for but the idea/the set up is the key - there's a few quid in certain parts of the league that would pay for an idea like that to help us all

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

BBC and ITV decided to play a handful of games each season. Sky was also available. It was the all seater stadium which helped drive the TV Boom.

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The Taylor Report predates Sky Sports by a year and the premier league (when Sky Sports first got football) by 3 years.

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Regarding the facilities and terracing/all seater stadium its clear that until we go with all seater stadium and improve facilities we will only persist in attracting the wrong type of fans.

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Sweet ****ing jesus. Convinced you're on a wind up now, so leaving it. :rolleyes:

"its clear that until we go with all seater stadium and improve facilities we will only persist in attracting the wrong type of fans"

don't think that statement would stand up to scrutiny. plenty of clubs got rid of "the wrong type of fans" without changing the layout or seating arrangements in their grounds and planty of teams still have "the wrong type of fans" even with all seater stadia.

Check out Birmingham and Millwall fans only a couple of years ago chuckin the all seater seats at each other.

There's more than one way to do it and you don't have to exclude terracing to boost attendances. Personally I feel the terraces are part of the game and for the better. its just the way I see it. Can't imagine if I'd been sitting at final whistle in Lansdowne for 2005 FAI cup. There's something extra about the terraces.

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Originally Posted by all drogged up

what the greyhound board has done here is legend and maybe there's room for that in the eLoI product and if so, great! More fans, more revenues etc. etc.

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I don't want to drag off topic but they could not have done that without massive state grants for facilities & state subsidised prize money. The dogs are a side show as Greyhound tracks are basically state run pub/restaurants.

FIFA would not allow the state to takeover the FAI.

Even if "German style" terracing was viable financially there is no way anyone in Ireland at official level would sanction unless the UK had already done so. We very rarely try anything new unless its good enough for the UK.

Have to say im all for decent terracing in eircom league grounds. There is too much of a rush with some clubs to put in seats anywhere possible, Longford being the prime example, i remember reading at the time flancare park was finished the chairman saying that there was now a seat for everyone in Longford town. I would imagine some of the seats in the ground have never been sat in despite hosting a couple of fai cup semi finals.
Clubs should focus on building quality 5-6000 capacity stadium with decent facilities, terracing is part of this. Building 10000 seater capacity stadiums will kill the atmosphere at matches. For most clubs even if they were to double their average attendance they would still be only half fill one of these stadiums. Teams generally only play a couple of home games in Europe in any one season so i dont think it should be that much of a consideration if a ground had enough seats to accomadate season ticket holders and other regulars for european games.
Greyhound racing is part of the hospitality industry.

i agree

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

BBC and ITV decided to play a handful of games each season. Sky was also available. It was the all seater stadium which helped drive the TV Boom.

Regarding the facilities and terracing/all seater stadium its clear that until we go with all seater stadium and improve facilities we will only persist in attracting the wrong type of fans.

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Ohh dear jesus, where to start :eek:

Since other posters have shown you the faults in your argument also consider this, the bundesliga attracts the biggest crowds in europe, by a country mile. Even when dortmund were fighting a relegation battle they were still attracting up on 80000 at games. With all their TV deals in england did you see all the empty seats at the jjb, or the riverside etc?? England is not the way forward for our country, the germans have shown us another way.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

BBC and ITV decided to play a handful of games each season. Sky was also available. It was the all seater stadium which helped drive the TV Boom.

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Sky and BBC/ITV never co-existed. Murdoch wanted a vehicle to push a quickly sinking BSKYB into the larger subscription market and he used football. The Taylor report predates all this and they go hand in hand as SKY pumped money into football to emulate America and increase the subcription TV market


SKY made the TV boom out of nothing. They saw football was far and away the #1 sport in Britain then closed the doors on it unless you paid for it. Simple strategy but a winner. I didn't mean to even type that much as you have to be a WUM

What happened in England was that they deliberately made the game at the highest level more attractive to the middle-classes and priced-out ordinary folk.
I've said it here before: terracing can be safer than seating, while it also means you can move around and be with like-minded souls.
In my experience, Old Trafford 20-30 years ago was great craic. It's like a soulless shopping mall these days. Awful.

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

Clubs should focus on building quality 5-6000 capacity stadium with decent facilities, terracing is part of this. Building 10000 seater capacity stadiums will kill the atmosphere at matches

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Agree completely, and apparantly the 5-6,000 capacity stadium, with terracing is part of the Jackman Park plans for Limerick 37, although if the FAI have their way we'll be back in Hogan Park. Knowing Limerick we'll end up in Askeaton within two months of this post :D:(

It's about a year old but here's an article on the money horse and dog racing gets:

http://stigonline.com/misc/si_funding.htm

I really don't see why people who want to stand at matches can't be accomodated. I also don't see why people read "all seater" as meaning better facilities. Is a crappy fold up plastic seat really so much better than a bar to lean on? It is if you want to sit but it's not if you don't.

The Connaught street side in Dalymount has circa 4,000 seats. Does this mean that I can now claim that it has good facilities? It doesn't, as any away fan will testify too. This thread is about whether or not safe terracing is a good option in ground development. I don't see how this interferes with facilities in a negative way.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

Of course it has. How many games were shown on tv before all seater stadiums? Very few. They now cant get enough. Go Figure.

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So they show more games cause there's nice seats everywhere? What am I missing here

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

Clubs should focus on building quality 5-6000 capacity stadium with decent facilities, terracing is part of this. .

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spot on.

The Rushden & Diamonds ground is a perfect example of a well constructed small ground which has ample capacity 6,500 (ish) including both terracing & seats and Corporate areas.
The Diamonds play in front of average crowds of around 2,000 so I would guess are very similar to a lot of LOI clubs, they generally only sell out if it's a very big game. 99% of the time you can pay on the gate.

I would hope that Athlone will end up with something similar then their ground is complete although as I understand they are planning to have it all seater.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

spot on.

The Rushden & Diamonds ground is a perfect example of a well constructed small ground which has ample capacity 6,500 (ish) including both terracing & seats and Corporate areas.
The Diamonds play in front of average crowds of around 2,000 so I would guess are very similar to a lot of LOI clubs, they generally only sell out if it's a very big game. 99% of the time you can pay on the gate.

I would hope that Athlone will end up with something similar then their ground is complete although as I understand they are planning to have it all seater.

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Aye looks cool thats about the same capicity harps are aiming for if we get it looking half as decent then it will be some place
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northamptonshir...ds_stand.shtml

Nobody is calling for terraces with no facilities Cupcakes*. Why can't you see that?

You keep on mentioning the need for good facilities in every post despite the fact that nobody has disagreed this. A safe terrace is no better or worse than a safe seating area. A Stadium that caters for everyones needs (ie can facilitate all fans) is the way forward. Those who wish to sit can sit without obstruction and in comfort and those who wish to stand should be accomodated in a terrace with good facilities.

It's not a case of either/or why can't you see this?




* Referring to the individual who posts as cupcakes. I'm not trying to be cool in a cigar out of the mouth, mustachioed hollywood movie star from the fifties type way.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

What planet are you from? Old Trafford should be the example all EL clubs strive for. The facilities are top class, even have a tv in the toilets. Im sure if we had similar facilities more would go. The days of consumers tolerating 2nd rate facilities are long gone and its time for the EL to move on.

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:eek: Are you for real? Do you have any idea how much facilities like that would cost? Man Utd have the largest income of any football club in the world consistently for the past 10 years. Also why the hell would any team in the eircom League want a 70,000 seater stadium?

Safe terracing behind one of the goals and part of one of the sides of the pitch with the rest being all seated is the way forward. I'm hoping that some sort of terracing will be included in the Belfield Bowl.

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Originally Posted by City till I Die

We are making the Brandywell all-seater, 10,000 or so, here's a pic of Shrewsbury's who we are basing the same as their ground

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Disappointingly, the plan for the Brandywell is to make it only a 6,000 seater - 8,000 tops.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakes

What planet are you from? Old Trafford should be the example all EL clubs strive for. The facilities are top class, even have a tv in the toilets. Im sure if we had similar facilities more would go. The days of consumers tolerating 2nd rate facilities are long gone and its time for the EL to move on.

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The toilets are certainly much better (no TVs where I've been, mind you) but other than that OT is now a depressingly dull experience. The seats are too close together, and there's no toleration of standing amongst fans except in tiny pockets of the ground and only on certain occassions. The atmosphere is awful and the vast majority of 'customers' are glory-hunting ******* or middle-aged people who suck sweets and sit on their arses.
I've been in OT when the place was rocking (73/74 rules!), but nowadays it's just a photo opportunity for tourists, or somewhere to go inbetween shopping and/or drinking bouts. If that's football's future I hope the game dies. Ole.
And up FC United of Manchester.