Tony Gregory is my local TD. Just like the rest of them don't see or hear much from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
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Tony Gregory is my local TD. Just like the rest of them don't see or hear much from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Quote:
Yeah I think we know what you think Pete
not an awful lot...just read the posts!!!
What about all revolutions then pete, because those people that broke the law, like in ukraine/yugoslavia etc, if everyone at the time, said why aren't they obeying the law etc, none of these would have occured. wake up and open your eyes. These people are dead right, have you for a start even visited these areas? i think i know the answer to that, for a start the "thing" is going to be a bloody eyesore, nevermind the potential damage it could do, to both human life and the environment, it would be interesting if something like that did occur what your opinion would be then, "ah sure its only a few ignorant FF voters from the arse end of nowhere in maigh eo".....just because you work in Software development, doesnt mean you have to follow everything logically....I certainly don't.
Its getting tiring having ye compare Ireland with Nigeria, Ukraine & Yugoslavia. I think some people need to take a look at thew world without the Che Guevara t-shirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.
Its not a democratically run country. The major decisions that affect our lives are taken in the boardrooms of major corporations. The press is owned by these people, the State is bought by these people and the education system is set up to discourage dissent. You can vote every 5 years for Neo Liberal or Diet Neo liberal. Thats no democracy. Parties who don't play the game of the multinationals have to struggle by on limited funds and thus cannot get the exposure that other parties do and if they get anywhere near to getting too big for their boots they are demonised in the press. A lot of this is dramatically illustrated by Rossport.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
The Government under the auspices of the corrupt minister Ray Burke hands a valuble state asset to the Shell corporation for a tiny fraction of its value, then changes the laws so that Shell have to give little or nothing back to the taxpayer. The Shell corporation decides to build a pipeline over land through a populated area, ignoring the industry standards. The courts side with them. The Gardaí are used as Shells private boot boys and the protesters are demonised by a lying private media owned by and large by a guy with a vested interest in Shell getting their way. Does this sound democratic to you?
Sounds like a Banana republic to me.
Its still 1 person 1 vote. I am no fan of the current government but i accept the will of the majority. Without multinationals we'd be living in mud huts, 30% unemployment & apying 70% of our income to the state to pay for the 305 unemployed.
This is your refrain anytime anyone questions the status quo. Quite frankly its ill informed drivel. You should go to this on Friday night:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Socialism 2006 Event
Would I be able to avoid the Israel v Palestine drivel?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Thats on Saturday. The Joe Vs. McWilliams debate is Friday night and is drawing a lot of interest.
Why aren't the "Socialists" involved in more campaigns on working class estates?? I've never in my life had one of your members near my door.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Seem quite happy to leave the working classes to the Shinners but when some ranchers up in Mayo try to impose mob rule the Socialist Party are one of the first aboard the bandwagon :confused:
We've had this conversation before on the Gama thread and I thought we'd come to a resolution on it. Ask the people of Swords and Dublin 15 who is the only party who they see campaigning on working class estates. Its us. As for Limerick, as I explained to you before the branch is relatively new, young and small and if you want to get us doing some work in your area you should join up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
On your other point, isn't democracy in its purest form "mob rule"?
But the Shinners have at least been making a couple of loud noises in Limerick and they're by no means popularQuote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
It just seems (to a lot of people I know btw, it's not just me) that the Socialists don't want to get their hands really dirty with a lot of the stuff that goes on in working class areas. Now maybe this is a wrong perception but it's definitely a perception a lot of people I know have and which IMO ye should be trying your best to change with work on the ground in "dis-advantaged" areas rather than standing up for rich farmers as they attempt to subvert the state in their own little backward kingdom in Mayo
As for democracy being at essence "mob rule", I've never claimed to be a fan of democracy in its current form. As Winston Churchill said the greatest advert against democracy is the average voter
Yes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Your brand of politics would see the all private property and business revert to public ownership. No motivation to strive for anything and the lowest common denominator rules. The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?
It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".
We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system. People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.
Socialist Party representatives are THE ONLY PARTY'S representatives who have gone to jail getting their hands really dirty representing the people who voted for them. Sinn Féin are great at making loud noises but when it comes to the areas I'm familiar with - Dublin, Louth, Meath - that is all they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Sounds like you are describing the current system where the LCD actually does rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
No this would be the result of Labourite reformist Social democracy. Under Socialist Democracy the property of the corporations would be siezed so they couldn't take it anywhere.Quote:
The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?
You're the one who's bringing it back to this. I fully plan on opening up a thread on the merits of Socialism over Capitalism and have extensive notes from a public debate I took part in. I'll string something together at the weekend - don't say you didn't ask for it.Quote:
It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".
As long as they are already wealthy.Quote:
We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system.
Who said anything about that? You're as bad as the right wing media making up stuff and attributing it to me. Cop on.Quote:
People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.
Now lets get back on topic here eh?
The current system is person one one vote. What would the system be in a socialist workers republic?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
How would seizing the property of companies protect our current relative wealth? How would this seizing affect the jobless rate?
I actually am asking for it, so we can get straight to your possible vision of a utopian society.
Complete nonsense. Everyone has the right and the oppurtunity to free speech, freedom of movement and the freedom to trade.
So a socialist society would allow freedom of trade, speech and travel? I didn't attribute anything to you just basing that on every example of a socialist society that has ever existed!
As for copping on well I'll leave that judgement to everybody else reading your musings over the last number of weeks. From workers rights to the corrib gas project you have a view on everything.
Who went off topic first ?
Sometimes it's hard to know where to start when you are responding to someone so completely indoctrinated with an ideology and cannot accept that other views have a valid point.
I look forward to you starting a thread on how you see society functioning and how in a socialist system freedom of expression, freedom of travel and trading rights are adhered to.
You or maybe Pete. My post about the system was linked to the issue and was therefore on topic. All the points you make I've been answering ad nauseum on message boards for the last ten years or so. There was a thread to do with the GAMA controversy on this board where I answered them all but it seems to have been deleted. I've already said I'll start a thread on the issue at the weekend so will you stop dragging this one off topic. (I personally wouldn't mind but if we continue to go off topic either this thread will be binned or it will be split by the mods).Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
(splitting from Corrib Gas Terminal thread)
This thread is gonna get messy :p
My 2 cents anyway, for what it's worth (I'm guessing a load of grief off of BohsPartisan) is that socialism in Ireland is seen as a joke, whether it is in essence or not is debatable, but as a political party when you have the majority of the public sniggering at you you're on to a loser.
Look up www.swp.ie, the webpage of the Socialist Party in Ireland and what do you see? One main topic discussing something thats reletive to Ireland, that being the Shell to Sea campaign. Outside of that you have two pieces dealing with British politics (well balanced debates I'm sure), a piece about America using Shannon Airport to refuel (old topical issue), two pieces about Israel/Palastine, another about Venezula/Bolivia, and some ridiculous statement about not sending any asylum seekers home.
I mean does anyone believe that the majority of the electorate care about Venezula/Bolivia? or about life in Britain after Blair? or even about Palastine? I mean really care, not just have a light interest in? I'd wager that most couldn't give two craps about America using Shannon as a stopover and all. Irish people want to hear more about Irish political standpoints about Irish topics, not about whether Chavez is doing a good job, or whether we should reheat the lost argument that is the Shannon stopover.
As for this no asylum seekers garbage, well I'll just say this. In Ireland we have members of the Hutu Power group that commited genocide in Rwanda 12years ago claiming asylum. People who are wanted back in Rwanda before the war crimes trial officially ends in mid 2009 but who are going through our courts, or just hiding out, hoping they won't have to go home to face justice for the horrors they inflicted. So what this 'No Asylum Seekers Should be Deported' nonsense says to me is that either the SWP are siding with scum like Hutu Power, or they haven't got a notion what they are talking about, I think I'll take the latter one of those two choices.
But again and again we see this with the SWP, all they come across as is a bunch of neo-liberal loudmouths who speak before they'll listen to the facts. Of course whenever someone disagrees with them, instead of trying to argue they'll try to discredit them, or just sum up their arguments into 'you don't know what you're talking about'. Until all this is fixed they'll always be considered a joke if ask me, and not realising this will only prolong their stay as Ireland's 'joke party', a position Fianna Fail should have taken up many years ago
Excellent Post Jebus
The SP are a joke party
in many ways like sinn fein they will do quite well in local elections as they are good at grass roots (mickey mouse) issues but no one in their right minds would let them run the country
So you're a mental health expert now are you? You have a real chip on your shoulder towards us. Its an awful pity the other thread was deleted because I answered most of this cr'p at the time and there were no comebacks on it so I presumed you'd nothing else to say on the issue. Why are you asking the same questions and making the same questions again? Have you short attention spans. Plus Jebus why use the SWP website as an example?Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
http://www.socialistparty.net is better all 'round.
One of my main gripes debating you guys on socialism is that you tend to ignore the main points against your arguements and bring up the same arguements over and over again. Then you give up and months later bring up the same arguements again and force me to repeat myself.
As for people "sniggering" at us? Who? More phanthom folk? We ran a local election candidate in Drogheda for the first time ever in 2004 having only established the branch in 2001 and came within 40 votes of a council seat. People I spoke to were delighted to have an alternative to the mainstream. The only people who "snigger" are arrogant right-wingers who have no real interest in listening to what we say and construct a mythical programme for us behind our backs. I don't care about these people but I find it necessary to explode these myths for the benefit of people who are interested in what we stand for. I was hoping to start a thread myself at the weekend on this subject so I could set the tone of the debate as usually I have to answer 6 different posts at once in these threads and am put on the defensive from the start. With this in mind I am going to ignore the more ludicrous points that have been made* for the time being and post my piece that I was promising at the weekend, then you guys can read what i have said for a change and actually answer my points. Most of the ludicrous points should be dealt with in my post as I am sick to the eye teeth of answering them over the years. The can is opened and the worms are well and truelly scattered.
*Highlighted text should not be quoted and taken as a direct representation of my post.
one word= cuba
success?
As successful as most non communist states in the carribean, yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by SligoBrewer
Be more specific. I have no idea what you are insinuating here.Quote:
Originally Posted by SligoBrewer
It's not my idea of paradise, but Cuba boasts high literacy levels, a good health system and has managed to develop a self sustaining economy in light of the sanctions placed on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SligoBrewer
yes, cuba is a brilliant success!Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
socialism if done properly, is better than any other system.
personally this country is getting to become more like a banana republic every week
I Agree socialism in its Ideal state is commendable but as we've seen in practically every socialist regime it only works if the people in power are genuine and live by the socialist Ideal. Judging on the general track record of politicians in this country I don't think theres much chance of it working here. Orwells animal farm comes to mind
BohsPartisan you say that all us non-socialists ever do is say the same arguement over and over again, then leave then come back to it, but I'll counter with this, all you ever do is gloss over points that have been put to you with idotic rants about how us right-wingers (I'm not by the way, but then again why would you bother asking, just keep on assuming, it's the socialist way of doing things) are out to get the 6th most popular (if they are lucky) party in Ireland by making up manifestos for you.
I chose the SWP.net site because I typed in 'Socialism Ireland' into Google and they gave that as their main website for Socialism in Ireland. As I've always trusted Google to ween out the rubbish I clicked on that assuming it was the main website for Socialism in Ireland, something which I still believe. But back to my points, if you'd care to read over them, about the Socialist Party, it's greater concern with the wider world than Ireland and it's policy of 'No Asylum Seekers Out', do you have any comment to make on that? Or are you just going to fling around more of your accusations and skim around the issues yet again, yet another trait of the socialist party it seems
I don't think there are any real examples of socialist states & certainly communism was a massive failure.
Based on all the elections in Ireland we a centralist people shifting from left to right & back again. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.
I wouldn't say anyone treated as a joke but its clear the SWP is only treated as a sideshow.
Irish people will say they aint-US & support the Palestians & others but almost no one would let it affect their vote in even a local election as its well down in order or priorities.
examples pleaseQuote:
Originally Posted by SligoBrewer
One of the major reasons that we're a centralist people as you put it is due to Labour declining to contest the 1918 and 1921 elections leading to Irish politics being totally polarised around the Treaty issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I disagree on many points there. 1. I disagree that there is no desire for a propper left. I find most people receptive to The Socialist Party and sick of the lack of choice in Irish politics. I also disagree that the SWP is the proper left.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
This is nonsense. We campaign on local, national AND international issues. If you were ever at our national conference, which is usually a three day event you would find that two or three hours is taken up with international issues (we are part of an international organisation after all) and the rest with stuff concerning Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
SF and FF claim to be socialists from time to timeQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
TBH i don't know what the irish socialist parties are. SF & the Greens claim but I don't believe they are but would be interesting to know the definition of...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Yes but due to a lack of resources we only run a small amount of candidates. Our average return per candidate is better than most of the major parties. Clare Daly came within a hundred votes or so of winning a second seat for us the last time around and we're hoping she'll get in. She is widely tipped to win a seat in Dublin North at any rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
The major parties have massive financial resourses that we simply can't compete with. Look at the PD's. They have no activist base yet they can spend massive amounts of money on elections. In the last local elections in Drogheda despite the fact that we are the most active party in the town, in terms of real activism, we could only run in one ward where the PD's were able to run in all three wards. Despite this our candidate polled more 1st prefs than the three PD candidates put together. We also polled more first prefs than the two FF candidates in our ward and were only over taken when the lesser FF candidate's preferences were redistributed. There were a lot of people very disapointed we didn't get the seat (I was delighted with how well we did and certainly wasn't expecting to come so close as it was ourt first time standing in the town).
Those same polls that tell you that x amount of people vote for FF and FG but are also dissatisfied with the choices they have. Most people in this country don't vote because they agree with government policy but because such and such has a constituency office down the road. Or else they just don't vote.
The Greens claim to be socialist?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I don't think they do. SF have kind of dropped the tag too AFAIK. Ogra SF still call themselves Socialist but the bit on the masthead of An Phoblacht "for a 32 county Socialist Republic" is gone and they have been cosying up to business leaders of late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
what about the Nice elections thenQuote:
Originally Posted by pete