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The last time I saw NI away supporters close up was here in Iceland a few years ago. Then there were a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys, looked even more farcical in a foreign context.
Yesterday at the Finland game, the camera caught the away support many times, they looked kinda normal healthy football supporters.The change is phenonomal. Is this for real?
So you judged them by looks and ridicule them for having the flag of their country and singing their national anthem? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
A tad defensive?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I made observations and formed an opinion. As an Ulsterborn lad I didn't feel that comfortable that I could share my "ulsterness" with that bunch singing about the billy boys. It's just the natural instinct for self preservation pushes me well away, maybee if I had met a few more open minded chaps like yourself I would have absolutely no problem :)
Why the complete transformation then?
Do Northern Ireland play under the Union Jack as their official flag for International games?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I honestly do not know but would imagine so as it is the ONLY official flag of the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
By all means criticise people for singing the billy boys, indeed I would join you, but your other criticisms are unfair as there is nothing wrong there.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Where do uncover the critical angle?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It's one observation, one not three. Union jack clad, gstq billy boys. What's unfair about that? You are seperating elements.
Anyway, where have all these elements gone with the NI away support, the unionjack clad, singing verses about gstq and the billyboys?
I didn't see one uj at the Finnish game compared to flag orgy in Iceland.
Am I not supposed to notice this phenonomal change in NI away support?
My memory of World Cup 1986 saw them use this flagQuote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
I couldn't say what the situation is now
As far as I am aware that has not been an official flag since the Northern Ireland parliament was dissolved in the early 70's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
You stated in looked farcical. What is farcical about waving the flag of your country and singing your national anthem at an international match? If you were just referring to the singing of the Billy Boys then surely that is all you should mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
You're right. Iwas just pointed out that you have used it since then. And it is my only memory of any flag being used for NIQuote:
Originally Posted by David
Because if the Northern Irish football team/fans ever want to gain the support of both sides of the community in the province then,..... ohhh - forget it..... !! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well David at each competitive Interantional the 2 teams flags ares flown along with either/or maybe both Uefa and Fifa.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So surely you've seen which flag your national team use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
Haven't been in a couple of years due to problems getting tickets and to totally honest when I go to a game I do not look for what flags are being flown.
If I refer to bover booted skinhead racists being farcical in a foreign context doesn't mean I am making a hair/shoe fashion statement. Obviously the threat is the racism. Is there some avoidance about the question? Where have they all gone? Was there a collective unconcious decision to forgo this apparel and overt bigotry? did they run out of money? were they regarded as persona not grata inside the NI football supporters club?Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Were they photographed and banned? Did they just simply not turn up anymore?
How did it happen?
So will ROI fans refrain from flying the tricolour and singing the Soldiers Song?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The only overt bigotry is the singing of the Billy Boys, nothing else biggoted in what you mention. As for your question, there was a major campaign amongst NI fans to deal with this which has been very successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Firstly - the Republic is not a divided society with a recent history of violent inter-communla strife. Hence there is less of a need to be cautious about the baance of messages that official organisations send out.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Secondly - even if it was, I'm not aware of the Irish flag or anthem causing offence to particular sections of the Republic's population : including protestants. In fact - I'm not even aware of either causing grave offence to the protestant population from the north who come to watch/play in Ireland rugby internationals. But that's a whole different story. If only because the southern-based rugby has made stpe to neutralise its messages through 'Ireland's Call'.
You know full well that your retort is spurious David. Unless your happy to have it reversed and say that the views of the people in the South have validity over the actions of both communities in the north ? I'm sure that route could end up with Irish langauge signs on Ballymena Main Street, if you were happy to play those sort of games... :)
Nice try...
If you're happy with the IFA and the Norn Irish fans branding themselves with the symbols, totems and identity of only one side within a deeply divided society, then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
But don't come complaining when members of the other side don't support the team, opt to play for another team, oppose large chunks of public money beign spent for the NI team/facilities etc etc. You can't have it both ways.
The OFFICIAL flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag and the OFFICIAL national anthem is GSTQ. Now if people take offence at either of these then I suggest it is they who have the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Regardless of what is official - if you're happy for the IFA and Northern Irish team to clearly and exclusively align themelves with the symbolism of only one side within a deeply divided society, then don't be surprised if you get short shrift from the other side of the population. You may be able to quote 'official' at us, but you know full well that Northern Ireland, its fans, and the IFA is making a conscious decision to be polarising.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Sadly it appears we'll never have some sort of inclusive, peaceful future for all in the province with attitudes like that around....
So - a yes/no answer please. Are you happy for the Northern irish football team to remain polarising and politically/culturally unappealing to a very large chunk of the province's population ?
David, Chill mate - i don't think anyone was trying to be overly offensive - just making an observation, which i took as a compliment to the progress NI have made more than anything else. And as a NI fan i would far rather see people wearing the kit, singing songs about the team and waving the NI flag and the IFA flag, than the way things used to be.
As for GSTQ what a dirge, just my personal opinion, (and that of many others i'm sure judging by the number of players singing it!). Would be nice to change it for a unique NI sporting anthem - probably not going to happen though...
David, the Official flag for Northern Ireland's Footbal team, which is what we are discussing, is not the union jack.
Just check the FIFA or UEFA websites.
The use of the Union Jack is not a flag that the enitre population of northern Ireland can feel at ease with, but if you're happy excluding some people, then happy days. Any other attempts to attract more Nationalist fans to N.Ireland games are a waste of time and effort.
Good, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
As I wrote the change has been phenonomal.
"Deal with this"
Obviously "this" means the singing of the billy boys and any such similar songs and symbols.The campaign appears to have included the avoidance of the use of the union jack. And the evidence does support your statement that this campaign has been very successful.
I would never have believed that such a transformation was possible.
No longer does the away support resemble the athmosphere found at a national front rally as was commented upon here in the media.
Ok read bits of this and want to clear it up. Not very many of us infact probably all of the true fans don't want to heard Billy boys and all that ****e as it actually isn't really to do with our country as for the union jack I'm not a big fan but it is our flag but I'd prefer to see an Ulster flag or an OWC or NI flag which have become more common and the union jack has started to disappear. The IFA and the fans have done really well to make it a more family atmosphere at the games and oth deserve real credit for that.
So every country in the world other than NI can display their country's flag at international games yet when NI do it, it is excluding people. We could play home matches on the Falls Road without a Union Flag or GSTQ and would still not get any sort of Catholic support. Whereas it is seemingly ok for ROI fans to boo players just because they play for Rangers (or they think they do). That is being very welcoming to everyone.
Not going to comment on the rest of the thread, but this point is silly. Yes, there were idiots who booed Rangers players because of who they played for. The practice was widely condemned here, and among most right-minded Ireland fans. It was reported to UEFA after a few games of this - maybe a year or two, no more - who told the FAI to take action. They did, and most of the booers - who were booing without thinking because everyone else was booing - copped on to what they were doing and stopped. I can't remember a Rangers player to be booed since action was taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I think you'll find most people on here abhorrd that kind of thing but as seen last night with the booing of Robben and Van Persie (and others in the past) It has more to do with Cross Channel football than sectarianismQuote:
Originally Posted by David
No it's not ok, it is ignorant, offensive and childish and I think the vast majority of football supporters in ROI would have that opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Didn't notice anyone here condone the behaviour you speak of David, so i don't know how you can say 'It's seemingly OK'Quote:
Originally Posted by David
As for your flag, then surley you'd be happier supporting a British national team(made up of Eng,Scot,Wales and N.Ire) rather than just Northern Ireland
who seem happy to register their Football teams' official flag as a red & white cross with some emblem in the middle.
As for not getting any Catholic support no matter what, you and I both know that N.Ireland had plenty in the past, but with fans like you wanting to keep your one-sided regalia, then you're spot on you'll not get them anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I'd imagine Kosovar Albanians don't follow the progress of the Serbian National team with much interest either even though technically they are still part of Serbia.
The IFA are entitled to fly the official flag of NI at games.
Some residents of NI are also entitled not to feel an affiliation with the national team due to various political, cultural and historical reasons (nearly all of which have nothing to do with football).
That is just the way it is and unlikely to change in the near future.
If, for example, a United Ireland came in tommorrow and the official flag in Belfast became the tricolour would you feel any affiliation to it or to a United Ireland team?
You can't seperate football completely from the surrounding political situation, much as we'd like to.
You are quite correct, in the past there was more Catholic fans. That was during the 80's when we were successful. As a passing note there was 10 times more sectarianism than there is now so the claim that this is what put Catholics off does not hold much credence, does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
No David, it was in the 60's and ealry 70's, when Sectarianism then reared it's ugly head and forced alot of Nationalists away.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
But as you are fond of saying David, don't let the facts get in the way.
David - a vartiety of factors combined to dramatically alter the fan-base of the Northern Irish international team.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Three primary events happened concurrently. Firstly, the relative success of 1982 and 1986 quickly faded, and Northern Ireland became a 3rd rate international team again very quickly. As the success declined, so too did the fans - of all religions AND NONE. NI's support base was reduced to a hardcore rump. Unfortunately, it was a hardcore containing a substantial number/percentage of out-and-out bigots, who wanted the Northern Ireland footballing experience to be 'Ulster's Big Day Out'. Doubtless there was much overlap in support between certain Irish League teams and the Northern Irish team at this tim, as we both know the IL suffered terribly from terrace sectarianism back then. This made the Northern Ireland matchday experience an increasingly hostile one for many Catholics/nationalists. I know of a number of Catholics who used to go to games with their families, and would still have a soft spot for NI, but who haven't been back since the days when they had to listen to "If you hate the fcukin fenians, clap yer hands..." being sang by their own fans around them. Apologies if you interpret that desire as glory hunting....
The final event that happened concurrent to all of this was the growth in success of the Republic of Ireland team. That gave alienated Catholics/Nationalists an alternative team to support/identify with. One where they wouldn't be abused by their own fans, or be surrounded by symbolism that they couldn't identify with.
Without any one of the above 3 concurrent developments, I do not believe that the haemorraging of Catholic support would have occured - or at least certainly not to the same degree. Regardless, it is both churlish and naively simplistic to suggest that the catholics turned their back on Norn Iron solely or even primarily because of results. Little things like having to listen to hundreds of people openly abuse them/their religion on matchday, and players receiving death threats etc, might have had an even greater impact don't you think....?
When every country in the world has to go through 40 years of serious inter-community violence - bordering at times on out-and-out civil war - then, maybe then, they'd have to think carefully about the symbolism they use. But luckily, most of the world hasn't had to face-up to such a situation....Quote:
Originally Posted by David
And if a country's flag is rejected by approaching 50% of the population of that country, can it ever really claim to be their national flag - regardless of what the establishment may dictate ? Sounds to me more like the flag of only PART of a nation.
And here you go agion with the same old cyclical arguement - 'there's no point neutralising the symbolism of the NI team as Catholics wouldn't support us anyway'. Firstly, as if doing something because it was the right thing to do wasn't sufficient reason enough. God love us that the IFA might ascend to any sort of moral highground at some stage. Secondly - you sound just like a white South African in the dying days of apartheid. 'What do you mean we have to chance our flag and anthem at rugby games - the bloody blicks don't even want to watch or play the game anyway....'. In a divided society people should have the maturity to do whatever is necessary to reduce the divisions - on all sides. Childishly bemoaning that neutralising a polarising football team may not lead to any more bums on seats is feckin irrelevant. Otherwise, you could argue there is no point giving young people, black people, poor people, women etc the vote, for example, as the vast majority of them don't use it !Quote:
Originally Posted by David
And finally - who's to say Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't come out in more numbers to support a less-polarising NI ?? Until you try it, you simply won't know ! For example, if I was in Belfast when NI were playing, I would go along (though not on my own). I would struggle to feel any great affinity with the team, because to me the symbolism they choose to drape themselves in is the footballing equivalent of painting kerb stones and putting flags on lamp-posts round Council Estates - but I would still go. If it didn't feel so much like a drive through Irish Street or Sandy Row, then I would be much more likely to get into the spirit of things and to feel an affinity with the team. But until that day happens - you'll never fcukin know !
For once the IFA could do something because it is the right thing to do and because it would send out the right message about the NI team being more about football than politics/religion. Though God forbid they would ever have the balls, maturity or wisdom to do so. Having dinosaurs like you around with your last-century views certainly won't help them make that decison in a hurry though...
I don't know Steve. As I already wrote there has been a huge change reflected in the away support. It's my only reference. When I went to watch Iceland V NI some 6 years ago, I had no problem with cheering wholeheartedly for Iceland and delighted in their (undeserved) victory. I had not witnessed such a shower as those venomous bigots close up before at a football game. Nowadays the NI away support look almost too friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I assume that that change as Swifts supporter wrote about took a lot of effort from the IFA and that change happenned because the supporters wanted the change.
You are not wanting to neutralise us, you are wanting to take away our entire identity and that simply will not work. A few facts. We are British. Some may not like that, they are entitled not to like it but the very fact that the Northern Ireland team exists at all is testament to the fact that we are a separate country from ROI. It is what we are. Nationalists do not believe that Northern Ireland as a country should exist. Therefore they are simply not going to support a team bearing that name. At Northern Ireland games there is no sectarianism whatsoever. Yes there is signs of Britishness such as Union Flags and GSTQ as a national anthem but I repeat, that is us, that is what we are and if people do not like that then that is entirely up to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The point I made earlier is entirely valid. I can recall as a teenager and younger standing on the Kop at internationals and the sectarianism was vile, it was disgusting and non stop but the simple fact of the matter is, and let's deal in facts here, that did not stop Catholics supporting the team. When sectarianism was and its worst we drew support from the Catholic community. Now that sectarianism is entirely eradicated from games and our Catholic support is minimal. How can that be put down to anything other than glory hunting? Nationalists, no matter what are not going to support a team that they feel should not even exist. Why should we dilute or identity in search of a golden pot at the end of a rainbow that simply does not exist. The Union Flag is the flag of our country and GSTQ is our national anthem and we should be in no way ashamed of either of those facts.
After the above pulpit sermon from the Rigth Reverend David, I'm going to give up banging my head againat the wall..... :oQuote:
Originally Posted by David
You may be British - but a very large chunk of the Northern population are not. That doesn't mean they would never support a Nortehrn Irish team. I am a nationalist, I would like to see a United Ireland some day, but I also accept that that won't happen until a majority of the north want it. Which in turn won't happen any time soon. In the mean time, I wouldn't have a problem supporting a northern Irish team that was just that - a Northern Irish team. Not one racked with cultural insecurity and obsessed with presenting itself as British in all possible ways. Yet people like you feel that only one community should 'own' the team exclusively - a British team for a British people - even if doing so alienates a massive section of your own country. Your statements that Catholics/nationalists will never support the north are not only absolute nonesense, but a very convenient excuse for your out-dated Afrikaaner mindset.
David - the horse has bolted to a large extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
In the very dark days of Northern Ireland, Catholics put up with a lot which they simply wouldn't tolerate now. Sectarianism was a daily occurence for many (I'm not saying it didn't work the other way as well - but let's be honest : Stormont and much of the officialdom of NI was founded on sectarian apartheid in those dark days), who turned a blind eye as they wne tabout their daily business. Hence, the vile sectarianism of years ago was ignored. Just because black south africans put up with being marginalised and abused in Apartheid South Africa, doesn't mean they didn't have an issue with it. And it certainly doesn't mean they would go back to that old way now.
Also - when Northern Ireland had a large and mixed fan-base in the early 1980's, the sectarian rump were a small minority. As fans OF ALL RELIGIONS stopped following the team in the late 1980's, that sectarian rump became a much bigger, noisier, more obvious and intimidating presence. That combined with more general empowerement amongst Catholics to make them realise that they didn't have to put up with that sort of bigoted sh!t any more, and the success of the ROI gave them aconvenient alternative avenue to follow international football without being hated and abused by their own. Once the fans are gone, it's very difficult to get them back. It's by no means impossible, but clinging to the cultural symbolism of only one community certainly won't help in getting them back. Regardless, they'd only spoil your 'British team for a British people' dream anyway....
By your theory of glory hunting - if the Republic continue to spiral downwards, and the North continue to rise and surpass the south, at some point the Catholic hordes will all flock back to the North - correct ? After all - we're all just glory hunters, unconcerned with the way our dissenting masters may chose to treat us....... :rolleyes:
David - I'm frankly embarassed for you. If retaining the Union flag and GSTQ at Northern Irish games is more important to you than creating a balanced, functional, peaceful and respectful society in Nortehrn Ireland, where all can genuinely feel able to contribute and partake for the greater good of the Province, then you are a very, very sad individual. Thankfully, the numbers of people like you on both sides are declining......
As someone who travels regularly away with Northern Ireland, I have no problem with anyone flying either the Union Flag or the old official flag of NI. If any flag is emblazoned with paramiliatary trappings or offensive slogans, then that is a different issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
And the comparison with rugby is a legitimate one. As someone who travels sporadically to Dublin to watch the all-Ireland rugby team play under a partitionist flag and anthem, I just respectfully keep my mouth shut and get on with it.
Too many people on this island getting f**king offended for the sake of it.
Seriously, steve, what a crock. The "sectarian rump" was massive in the late 70s and 80s and the fans only stopped going when the team's on-the-pitch fortunes went downhill after Mexico 1986. Let's not kid ourselves here, there was never a regular 38,000 (attendance versus Israel 1981) at Windsor - indeed, despite the relative success on-the-pitch, 15,000 attendances were not uncommon.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Post-1986, the "sectarian rump" became that - a "rump" and it's malevolent presence was finally acknowledged as 'wrong', post-Rogan (1988). It would take a further 14 years before the IFA actively - and successfully - tackled it.
Now we have a full stadium for the forthcoming qualifiers with a further 7000 on the waiting list for tickets. All achieved under the Union Flag and GSTQ. Many Catholics DO support the national side - those who don't, well they are unlikely to, regardless the colour of flag and choice of pre-match tune.