Are we really THAT bad?

I live in Japan and work with other foreigners here. With the World Cup on, there have been some comments about the weaker teams not being as good as some European teams who didnt qualify. Ireland are frequently mentioned as an example of this kind of team, and I used to agree with that opinion, even though I cant watch the Irish games over here, so I didnt see any of the qualifying games.

But having just watched Switzerland against France, I might have to review my position. Switzerland, who finished ahead of us (not by much, I know) were just TERRIBLE. No tactics save the long ball, no midfield at all, the left back Magnin is just a joke, the list goes on.

Now I know it was against France, against whom any team would be happy with a draw, so I didnt expect too much from the Swiss in terms of attacking football, but that was awful.

Are Ireland really worse than that?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Are Ireland really worse than that?

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Ah.......yep.

We've played Switzerland 4 times in the last few years. How many have we won?

There's your answer.

The last time we've beaten a decent team in a competition was almost 5 years ago (Holland Sept 2001).

We have the players to be one of the top 16 countries in the world, imo, but it just never seems to go right on the pitch due to a number of different reasons.

They're a funny team Switzerland. In the qualifiers for both of the last two tournaments I was really impressed by them. And not just against us. But then in the tournaments themselves they really looked ordinary. I wonder if they get a bit stage struck.

We may not have faired well against the likes of the Swiss in the qualifiers but we're better than some of the dross that qualify from outside of Europe.

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Originally Posted by dmandmythdledge

We have the players to be one of the top 16 countries in the world, imo, but it just never seems to go right on the pitch due to a number of different reasons.

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Are you talking about England or Ireland?!

I`ve no idea where the players you are talking about are. Our squad is full of mediocrity.

We`d have a shout at a glorious nil all against many of the World Cup teams, on our day, but likewise I reckon some of the African sides could hammer us.

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Originally Posted by dmandmythdledge

We have the players to be one of the top 16 countries in the world, imo, but it just never seems to go right on the pitch due to a number of different reasons.

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MUG . NO

Were not great, but a lot of international football is about form and tactics. You dont need to have world class players in every position to do fairly well. You need one or two world class players (which we just about have - Given is world class and Robbie Keane and Duff are world class around 50% of the time). You also need good organisation and self belief. This nearly always comes from the manager, we didn't have this under Kerr who was out of his depth.

Under Jack Charlton we had a manager who was able to organise the team very well and give the players a degree of faith in themselves. In the late 80s and early 90s we were one of the top European teams. We had good players but (with the exception of McGrath, maybe at a push Aldridge) none of them were world class. The bulk of our players were like John Sheridan, Cascarino and Niall Quinn, good players but not spectular. But with an organised team and self belief they were able to help us compete at the top level.

I'd argue in the late 1990s Roy Keane gave us that organisation and belief. When he played (1994, qualification for 2002) we generally did well, when he was absent we didn't. I didnt like Keane's personality but at the end of the day you have to acknowledge, when he played, he was a born leader.

I like Brian Kerr, but under him we were sloppy at keeping a lead, lacked organisation (we wasted umpteen set pieces in every match in the last campaign). And we just didnt have the confidence to play well in competitive matches.

At the moment the jury is out on Staunton, we will only really be able to judge him after weve played a few matches. If he can give us sufficient organisation and belief then we will have a good chance and we can more than match the likes of Japan, Australia, Croatia, Serbia, Greece, Poland, Sweden, Turkey, the Czechs and yes, even the bleeding Swiss - all of whom have been sucessfull in the last few years. At the moment we're not quite there yet though.

I disagree with the lad that said that Ireland would get beaten by some of the African teams. I'm not impressed with any of the African teams in the WC so far and I reckon we'd beat any of them handily on neutral ground.

In a way I feel cheated. I have never felt so down about the team and have supported them since 88 (2 young before then)
You have to be honest about are chances for 2008.....the czechs blitzed the yanks and will stream role us, A early away massacre in germany will set the standard for the Worst campaign ever.
Slovakia draw will be the best result we get.
Draw in Wales is a cert also.
A few more retirements enroute of after a poor run.
And the likes of mc geady. Ireland and joey o ' brien all non runners....we would have the same kind of team as Northern Ireland (non premiership class)
No more quality english born guys want to play for us as a result of our pathetic results.
Kitson ,Nolan , lennon, Cahill etc guys who we badly need (im sure they are more but i cant think of who )

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Originally Posted by vega007

I disagree with the lad that said that Ireland would get beaten by some of the African teams. I'm not impressed with any of the African teams in the WC so far and I reckon we'd beat any of them handily on neutral ground.

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I'd disagree with that, I'd say Ivory Coast and Ghana would/could take us. They are teams that have power as well as pace and did well even though they lost in their respective games. Going on our last qualifying campaign when we were nothing more than ordinary and one paced then I'd say those 2 were better teams than us at the moment.

I'm sick of Switzerland in football terms and I'm not too impressed with their people either but in their defence, they must be thinking, "if we get a draw with France and win our remaining two games, then we're home and dry." Not losing your opening game is very important.

With regard to Ireland, I don't think the current management team and squad are good enough to qualify for any major tournament. I can't see us going to Euro 2008.

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Originally Posted by dmandmythdledge

We have the players to be one of the top 16 countries in the world, imo, but it just never seems to go right on the pitch due to a number of different reasons.

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I fully agree. But we also have a mickey mouse international setup that can only attract poor managers making it very hard for our better players to shine and overcome better organised, better managed teams with a more professional setup such as Switzerland.

It's always been the same and always will be I fear. Only Ireland could fail to qualify for a World Cup with a team containing several of the best players in Europe at the time as happenned in 82 (Lawrenson, Stapleton, Brady, O'Leary, Moran, Whelan, Daly and Heighway).

Does anybody remember England Ireland in 1990 one of the worst games ever in World Cup terms. France Switzerland was very similar to that in my view. 2 teams that no each other so well who both feel a draw is not a bad result but one who has slightly higher expectations and experience of big tournaments. The game had draw written all over it and so it turned out.

Regarding saying all we had was Alrdidge and Mc Grath and the rest were Quinn Cascarino and Sheridan is selective usage of names there.

Here is the team that Played Scotland in 1987


Bonner (Celtic) Scottish Champions I believe

Mc Grath (Man Utd)

Moran (Man Utd? Gijon)

Mc Carthy (Celtic)

Whelan (Liverpool)


Houghton (Liverpool? Oxford)

Brady (Inter Milan? Sampdoria)

Lawrenson (Liverpool)

Galvin (Spurs)


Stapleton (Man Utd? Ajax)

Alrdridge (Oxford Liverpool?)


Missing that day was Jim Beglin and Kevin Sheedy and Chris Hughton all playing at top English clubs. We later added Andy Townsend, Niall Quinn, Tony Cascarino, John Sheridan, Chris Morris, Steve Staunton to this. And after 1990 Denis Irwin and Roy Keane. We had top top players and when we played England in 1988 we had man for man as good a team as they did. Charlton added organisation and a game plan and made us hard to beat.

The available players aren't technically good enough. Even the supposedly weaker teams in the World Cup are capable of stringing passes together and keeping possession, something that we can't do.

Shows the need to develop continental style academies in this country rather than relying on a failing English system. We don't have the volume to produce the naturally gifted players to make up for the shortfalls in the system like the English do, so we need to develop this ourselves. Obviously I see this in conjunction with the eL, with the acceptance that the very top will still go abroad, but it's the only way I see of planned player development rather than the wait, see and hope tatic of the FAI of the past, present and seemingly the future.

Valid points about the team in the late 80's/early 90's. I think the myth about the quality of players available then is mainly due to the tatic's employed at the time rather than the actual quality of the team.

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Originally Posted by Macy

The available players aren't technically good enough

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Bottom line

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

and the rest were Quinn Cascarino and Sheridan is selective usage of names there.

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Sheridan was a brilliant midfielder. He could pass the ball better than anyone we have today. As soon as he left Wednesday they were relegated (no concidence) & whilst there they were more often than not near the top end of the division & competing in cup finals. Most Wedesday fans will tell you he was the heartbeat of the team pulling all the strings & more important than Waddle.

To write him off in terms of "selective" use of a name as a make weight is entirely wrong.

..& we can thank his goal for getting us to the WC finals.

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Originally Posted by Macy

The available players aren't technically good enough. Even the supposedly weaker teams in the World Cup are capable of stringing passes together and keeping possession, something that we can't do.

Shows the need to develop continental style academies in this country rather than relying on a failing English system. We don't have the volume to produce the naturally gifted players to make up for the shortfalls in the system like the English do, so we need to develop this ourselves. Obviously I see this in conjunction with the eL, with the acceptance that the very top will still go abroad, but it's the only way I see of planned player development rather than the wait, see and hope tatic of the FAI of the past, present and seemingly the future.

Valid points about the team in the late 80's/early 90's. I think the myth about the quality of players available then is mainly due to the tatic's employed at the time rather than the actual quality of the team.

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Good post. Oddly enough, in WC2002 I thought we were very good at moving the ball around & retaining possession. Agree totally about the need to stop relying on the English system. Like that would ever be recognised though :(

I've watched about 85% of all the action so far. Almost every team I've seen moves the ball around well, in the way the game is supposed to be played. Beenhakker has dismissed England as being nothing but a dead-ball team. They've actually been a rare exception.

Quick point about the Swiss: they did miss 2 gilt-edged chances and although France were almost non-existent as an attacking threat they're still a very hard team to break down. In a way we were unluicky: the only thinh Henry has done in a French shirt all year was to score that belter against us.

God, I'd love to win the lottery and gather together a pool of similarly minded wealthy people and invest properly in the game in this country:) I honestly believe there's sufficient dormant interest in football and sufficient interest in all live sport as long as it's of a sufficient standard and in a sufficient quality setting.

I think Genesis II is right in many ways though arguably not going far enough in direction of total reform. IRFU & GAA have set standards that football falls well short of.

It is indeed a very worrying and depressing time in Irish football, I can see us going to international wilderness for a number of years like Scotland are now! We need a miracle to qualify for 2008.. the talent just isn't there and there really is no one going through either, expect germany and czechs to roll us over

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

It is indeed a very worrying and depressing time in Irish football, I can see us going to international wilderness for a number of years like Scotland are now! We need a miracle to qualify for 2008.. the talent just isn't there and there really is no one going through either, expect germany and czechs to roll us over

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There's definitely talent there already and also definitely talent coming through, so we should chill our boots a bit here.

If Costa Rica can score twice in Germany so can we.

I think we're too like the English: OTT positive when things go well, OTT negative when they go badly.

But it doesn't negate the fact that we simply must take note of and adapt to how the game is changing and how we need to gain more control over our own destiny.

Oh, and on John Shridan - quality. If only we had him in his prime now. He's exactly the type of player that thrives in the world game these days.

General observation: not only does nearly every team move the ball around well, has anyone noticed how big & athletic the modern international player is these days? Croatia & Switzerland are a team of giants. It's a bit like rugby: modern day centres & wingers are the same build as forwards were up to the 1990s. This is another aspect of the game that's changing.

Osarusan, while you're giving a foreign opinion of Ireland, I'll give you another one. Here in the Balkans we're looked down on as a side with little skill or technical ability who sometimes manage to grind their way through but aren't thought of as all that good.

For all the Balkan's skill and technical ability, it's won them the grand total of 0 major championships in 75 odd years.

As for Stuttgart's post, it's true that there is a mini-crisis in our team and set-up at the moment, but even though most of the problems in our last campaign were self-created, we did come to within one goal of ensuring the Swiss stayed at home this summer. We do have problems going into the next qualifiers, but I wouldn't agree with some of the doom and gloomers here. We got a good group, a decent enough fixture list, and with an over-rated Czech side losing players after the World Cup, and Germany hardly pulling up any trees now, we will be competitive. Whether we will actually qualify is hard to say at the moment, but we'll be there or thereabouts, and it will be a nail-biting end to the group for us.

Technically good enough to compete well in international football:

Given
Finnan
Dunne
O'Brien
Carr (when he wants to be)
S. Reid
Robbie
Duff

Kavanagh (but not mobile / athletic enough)

Technically mediocre by international standards:
A. Reid (needs to be fully match fit & playing regularly)
Morrison
O'Shea
Lawrence
McGeady (very skillful but I've classed him as mediocre on basis of his final ball)
Paddy Kenny

Technically poor:

Kilbane - no way is he a central midfielder, but I'd have him as a LB
Doherty

Technically good but not up for it physically:

Liam Miller

Near Term Potential / Jury Still Out:

Elliott - honestly, this guy is a totally instinctive goalscorer. Watch him when he's fit.
Doyle
Paddy McCarthy - not skillful, but physical - a requirement for a CB as evidenced by the WC so far
Owen Garvan
Joey O'Brien
Ireland - but is he tough enough?
Our Management Team!

Wild cards:
Glenn Whelan
Stephen Ward
Ronnie O'Brien
Jay Tabb
Terry Dixon

+ others whose names didn't immediately spring to mind. Anyone agree / disagree?

The Czechs looked far from over-rated and say more like under-rated..Rosicky would punish our midfield

I totally agree. We have the basis of an ok team - if a few of these possible players come good then that can turn into a good team

I think the close season ( after the world cup when the transfers start) and the early part of next season is very very important

Ireland and O'Brien need to cement their places in their club teams
I would like Garvan to move somewhere like Wigan/Charlton/Reading a lower ranked premiership team where he is likely to get a game

McGeady needs to be injury free and be involved in the CL

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Technically good enough to compete well in international football:

Given
Finnan
Dunne
O'Brien
Carr (when he wants to be)
S. Reid
Robbie
Duff

Kavanagh (but not mobile / athletic enough)

Technically mediocre by international standards:
A. Reid (needs to be fully match fit & playing regularly)
Morrison
O'Shea
Lawrence
McGeady (very skillful but I've classed him as mediocre on basis of his final ball)
Paddy Kenny

Technically poor:

Kilbane - no way is he a central midfielder, but I'd have him as a LB
Doherty

Technically good but not up for it physically:

Liam Miller

Near Term Potential / Jury Still Out:

Elliott - honestly, this guy is a totally instinctive goalscorer. Watch him when he's fit.
Doyle
Paddy McCarthy - not skillful, but physical - a requirement for a CB as evidenced by the WC so far
Owen Garvan
Joey O'Brien
Ireland - but is he tough enough?
Our Management Team!

Wild cards:
Glenn Whelan
Stephen Ward
Ronnie O'Brien
Jay Tabb
Terry Dixon

+ others whose names didn't immediately spring to mind. Anyone agree / disagree?

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Changes to above list:
S. Reid relegated to Mediocre, O' Brien dropped to Poor, Morrison likewise. To describe him as Mediocre, would be an exaggeration. Kenny to Jury Out, as he never gets to play. Doyle to Good Enough. Jason Byrne added to Jury Out.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

The Czechs looked far from over-rated and say more like under-rated..Rosicky would punish our midfield

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They have Rosicky, we have Duff. The current Czech team is excellent but their most influencial players (Nedved, Koller, Poborsky, Galasek) will most likely retire after the WC.

We actually beat the Czech Rep recently enough. I know that these friendlies count for little but they do show that we can compete with these teams if we're on our game.

I'd have Robbie Keane over Baros any day too. And Shay Given is one of the few keepers in the game as good as Petr Cech.


I don't think we should be sh1tting ourselves because of the US game, but we always knew they were a quality team anyway. I'm looking forward to playing them.

Suggested changes to list:

*Kavanagh - relegate to technically poor
*Lawrence - move to Jury Out - not had a chance to show what he can do yet.
* and by the same token McGeady, who I don't think can be accused of being technically poor rather very near term potential
* A Reid is technically excellent so perhaps is in the "not up to it physically " category
* Kilbane more mediocre than poor
* If Dixon is a wild card then throw in Rooney & Long
* As far as relegating O'Brien to poor - well we would certainly miss him badly if he was gone tomorrow, that might change our view on his worth.

The talent is defo there, but if you don't know what to do with it its useless. The team needs leadership on and off the pitch. At the mo there doesn't seem to be any drive or cohesion there. Staunton has his work cut out.

its a disappointing summer with regards to transfers for irish players so far... hopefully next season will be good, but looking at the quality of some teams at the world cup.... hmnnn... worrying...

Well it was always going to be quiet until world cup is over
I think duff and reid could be on the move.

people say the czechs are fiercely impressive - maybe but I didn't think too much of the Germand against a really poor Polish team

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Originally Posted by vega007

I disagree with the lad that said that Ireland would get beaten by some of the African teams. I'm not impressed with any of the African teams in the WC so far and I reckon we'd beat any of them handily on neutral ground.

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And Ireland vs Nigeria played in London 2 years ago ended with a handy win for the Irish?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I live in Japan and work with other foreigners here. With the World Cup on, there have been some comments about the weaker teams not being as good as some European teams who didnt qualify. Ireland are frequently mentioned as an example of this kind of team, and I used to agree with that opinion, even though I cant watch the Irish games over here, so I didnt see any of the qualifying games.

But having just watched Switzerland against France, I might have to review my position. Switzerland, who finished ahead of us (not by much, I know) were just TERRIBLE. No tactics save the long ball, no midfield at all, the left back Magnin is just a joke, the list goes on.

Now I know it was against France, against whom any team would be happy with a draw, so I didnt expect too much from the Swiss in terms of attacking football, but that was awful.

Are Ireland really worse than that?

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Ireland are so much worse that not only did they finish behind France and Switzerland in the qualifiers and fail to beat either, but even Israel finished above them.

Stop with the sour grapes and wishful thinking and have a look at results before you try to hint that a team which finishes fourth in a qualifying group has some divine right to be at the World Cup.

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Originally Posted by Feech

And Ireland vs Nigeria played in London 2 years ago ended with a handy win for the Irish?

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The centre half pairing that day was the Doc and Kenny, who between them have exactly zero pace. One of Kenny's best (yet criminally underrated) qualities was organisation of the back line, but he needs someone with pace to follow his orders. O'Brien did this perfectly, Doc did like he was on medication. They never played as in central defence again.
For all that, the player that disappointed me most that day was Robbie Keane, time and again he came back into midfield to claim the ball, try to beat the Nigerian midfield and defence all by himself and inevitably lose possession. On more than one occasion this led to a counter attack and a Nigerian chance, and eventually it led to the 3rd goal.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Sheridan was a brilliant midfielder. He could pass the ball better than anyone we have today. As soon as he left Wednesday they were relegated (no concidence) & whilst there they were more often than not near the top end of the division & competing in cup finals. Most Wedesday fans will tell you he was the heartbeat of the team pulling all the strings & more important than Waddle.

To write him off in terms of "selective" use of a name as a make weight is entirely wrong.

..& we can thank his goal for getting us to the WC finals.

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Thank you for this. I have been trumpeting the virtues of Sheridan for some time now. A real classy player who should have played more games for Ireland!

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Originally Posted by Feech

Ireland are so much worse that not only did they finish behind France and Switzerland in the qualifiers and fail to beat either, but even Israel finished above them.

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By that, you'd swear that we finished 15 points behind them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I pointed it out to you at the time, but will remind you again, that we came within one goal of a WC play-off, and we wouldn't have even needed that, if France had held on to their lead in Switzerland. Tournaments swing on things like that sometimes. For the '94 WC, we qualified for it ahead of Denmark, by that rare Irish method of scoring more goals than them. :eek: In '94 we got the breaks, this year we didn't. That's how
it goes sometimes.

We will be there or thereabouts in the coming campaign. The Germans, Czechs, and Slovaks will take points off each other, while we'll have Croker, and have the advantage of finishing our games first. It will go down to the wire again.

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Originally Posted by Feech

Ireland are so much worse that not only did they finish behind France and Switzerland in the qualifiers and fail to beat either, but even Israel finished above them.

Stop with the sour grapes and wishful thinking and have a look at results before you try to hint that a team which finishes fourth in a qualifying group has some divine right to be at the World Cup.

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If that quote is directed at me, then you need to read my original post more clearly.

I dont think Ireland, or anybody, has a divine right to be at the World Cup.

Judging by the Swiss, I'd say we dont have any right to be there at all.

I never expressed any sour grapes, I just said that if we were worse than the Swiss, which we are, then we must be a very poor side indeed.

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

I'd say Ivory Coast and Ghana would/could take us.

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agreed

hehe

its a great world cup