Personaly i think there is two hope's... slim and none!
but leave it up to you !! :ball:
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Personaly i think there is two hope's... slim and none!
but leave it up to you !! :ball:
I honest to god think that after a setteling in period they would defo hold there own against the likes of hibs, hearts, livi, dundee etc.... might take a season or two but after that couldnt see a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
lads give me a break, as a very big fan of spl and el im sorry to say very few teams in the el prem would beat killie, livingston, dundee/utd, or the somewhat mid table teams, i think that in a few years maybe but as this league (el) grows it is going to more or less turn into a mini sctos prem. where for shels to stay ahead of cork they will be buying big name(for the el that is) players instead of using the 21's (vice versa)therefore the rest of the teams in the leauge will suffer.
When they have a full squad 20 full time players WORTH THE MONEY. and more than 2-3 thou fans going weekin weekout home and away will the be able to aford to get to this standard. Personaly i think they would be mid table 1st div spl team and the best!
The performance of non Olf Firm SPL teams in Europe has been pretty poor lately.
Dunfermline were beaten by an Icelandic team this season and a few years ago Bohs beat Aberdeen.
Hearts have been a bit better the last 2 seasons.
I think the top 2 in the EL would make a good stab at avoiding relgation from the SPL.
thats possible conor, but i cant see 1st of all hoe you can slag off the scots leauge, when your a fan of the kdl, and second of all when your a fan of the loi, ever hear of the saying peopl in glass houses cant throw stones.
Any way the kdl leauge is shokin, the top teams in the lsl would chalange a lot of teams in the el prem now there's a thread to start. Glenmore, and the likes would with out doubt hold there own in the el prem.
didn't city beat them 9-0 a few years ago......Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
Yea our strikers had an off day. Kept the score downQuote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
When EL clubs have come up against Scottish Clubs in Europe (excluding the Old Firm) our record has been excellent (where it counts, competitively).
When EL clubs have come up against the Old Firm Clubs in Europe our record has been no worse than that of Livingston, Inverness, Aberdeen against them in the SPL (usually lost, the odd draw, never outclassed though).
In recent years, our standard has improved while you could argue that Scottish football hasn't, the old firm now relying on players from outside of the SPL. Hearts have done well to get to the Group stages of the UEFA cup, but at that level they've been found out, Shel's are already close to that standard, if not at it.
Players like Noel Hunt who did reasonably well in the EL are reported to be doing reasonably well in the SPL, definitely not suffering for a step-up in standards.
Shels, Bohs and Cork would hold their own with the SPL also-rans, little doubt about it in my mind.
Conor,
I watch all Celtics games home and away!!
I go to about 6-7 games a season, and a few friendly as well.When Celtic are on a Sunday, I will listen to a game on the radio. so I know my stuff.
Hibs possible have two of the best strikers in the league and they would destroy any loi team.. killie have a goal scoring machine in boyd who would also do damage. Forhan has scored but only a cpl and most of them penos so point proven?
What I have to say to the post in here lads is that fair play to you for sticking up for the league and so on
but to do well in a league you cant just go out and do "well" against a team in Europe it must be done week in week out
and im afraid lads I just don't think that the for mentioned teams can do that! If that's the case and we go one one match games
well nearly every club has can say they are great.. sure look at my beloved Celtic last night!! drew 1-1 with arguable the best
team in the world at the moment dose that mean Celtic are almost the best team in the world??? No even I can say there not anywhere
near that!!!! have I proven my point yet??
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
You can really only draw conclusions from competitive games. EL -v- SPL games in Europe over the last ten years have shown that we've progressed to a level where we can compete with them.
If Shels and Hearts had been in the same UEFA group this year, they'd definitely have been the bottom two, but I doubt there'd have been much between them, Shels have proven this year that better clubs couldn't beat them in Dublin (four Euro games, not a once off), Cork the same albeit in the inter-toto.
Before you discount that point, remember that Celtic have built their European reputation on their home games, last night was their first CL away point.
You're suggesting that they couln't hold their own, implying they'd be relegated. I don't buy that.
This is crazy talk. I'm a season ticket holder at Hibs, and a 500 club member at St Pats Ath. There is no way they would compete against Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen. No doubt this is all from Celtic armchair fans.
A few games between eL and SPL teams over the last few years that spring to mind are Pats Vs. Celtic, Bohs Vs. Aberdeen and Shels Vs. Rangers. Not one eL team was outclassed what so ever, Pats drew in Celtic Park !
Yeah, but the question was 'would they hold their own in the SPL'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAINTS4EVER
So I ask, would they compete against Inverness C, Dundee, Dundee United, Dunfermiline and Livingston? I reckon they would.
Cork and Bohs would definitely not be good enough for it, Bohs will be lucky how they cope in EL next season with all the players they're losing. Shels would have a chance against the smaller club with there new signings
I've been involved in discussions like this before on this site and really at the end of the day it is only a matter of individual opinion. No point in getting too heated because none of us can prove our points.
My own opinion is that Shels and City and would hold their own. I don't think they're better overall than the likes of Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen but they are more than capable of beating them on any given day. I think a mid table finish would be about right IMO.
I would have said Bohs too but the way the performed this season and the fact they've lost important players now decreases their chances I think.
The rest of the EL Prem would be about the 1st division standard IMO.
well said
Shels and Cork City would easily do quite well in the SPL and would probably only be inferior to the Old firm.
I'll reserve judgement on Bohs because they might not be as good as they were next season.
Small clubs like Longford, Waterford, Pats etc. would struggle big time in the SPL.
It's preety clear that the big eL clubs would be far from out of their depth in the SPL. Take the recent eL v SPL games, take recent Scottish and Irish performances in Europe and take Noel Hunt and Juan Sara.
The only evidence I've seen to the contrary is 'I go to every SPL and eL game ever, so therefore I'm always right and I say eL is ****.' It's preety clear these guys are into the SPL for 'real' football and the eL through patriotism, therefore they'll be believing the media bolox which has the English league as best in the world, then a raft of big European ones, then the SPL and the eL as the very bottom league in the world. Obviously this is bolox and their argument has no basis.
Do people really think bohs are going to be that bad next season? They'll challenge again. no doubt about it.
one or two new signings, farrlley sorts it out a bit. where are the bohs fans on this one
as for spl...
couldn't really say but whe I get back I'l be buying season tickets for hibs and probably heading to a few hearts games as well .. if and when I'm home I'll drop by a few ucd games for good measure. migth be able to give a more informed opionion then
if I'm guessing now thought I'd suggest cork and shels might manage mid-table bt that would be the most we could hope for. bohs 10 days ago would too.. depends who farrelly brings in now.
For a start no EL club would be allowed anywhere near the SPL. The EL is light years behind the SPL facilities wise. Even the worst ground would be better than anything over here.
EL clubs getting decent results over SPL teams in the past in Europe is no indication of how well EL clubs would do. Smaller clubs always try raise their game in Europe. Playing in a League week in week out is a different matter altogether
What, and Dunfermline lowered their game when playing an Icelandic team who finished lower than the team Shels got passed in the first round of the CL?Quote:
Originally Posted by joeraki
And going to SPL games is no judge, you're watching teams of similar quality play each other, the quality of the game or style of play would have no bearing on whether or not eL clubs would manage in the SPL.
[QUOTE=ShelsTim]What, and Dunfermline lowered their game when playing an Icelandic team who finished lower than the team Shels got passed in the first round of the CL?
QUOTE]
Going by the odd Euro game is no indication either. 3 Scottish teams are still in Europe and No Irish
Bit like saying with Shels holding Deportivo at home any not losing to bad away, that the best EL clubs would hold their own in La Liga :rolleyes:
We're ignoring Celtic/Rangers, everyone agrees we wouldn't compete with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeraki
And it's not like saying we'ld manage in La Liga. If, let's say, Dep played Newcastle in Europe and lost and we played Arsenal and won, then it would be the same. And that's not the only evidence I gave. By the way, have you actually got any evidence to the contrary or are you just defending this thing for the sake of it?
Two are Celtic and Rangers, nobodys saying we'd compete with them. The other is Hearts, who got into the UEFA cup stage that's to being seeded thanks to the co-efficent earned for the SPL by Celtic and Rangers. Irish sides don't have that luxury, Lille would easily beat Hearts over two legs. They were beaten by French opposition last season who are currently below Lille in the French league if I'm not mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeraki
Look at results in Europe then. Shels lost to Kille due to a last minute goal having utterly outclassed them, that was down to us not being fit due to part time football. Not a problem anymore, and here's the proof, Bohs went and knocked out Aberdeen. St Pats drew in Celtic Park and narrowly lost, that's roughly the level of non old firm SPL sides against the big two, in fact most just get destroyed home and away. Shels were 3-0 up against Rangers! Then part time fitness kicked in and they came back, 0-2 in Ibrox is about the level of non Old Firm SPL sides. Other results, Shels knock out the Icelandic champions, Dunfermline get destroyed 3-1! at home by a team who finished below the team Shels knocked out.
Lets look at players, then. Richie Byrne was a poor full back in the LOI, he moves to the SPL and is a mainstay in the Dunfermline team until some issues with his contract had him froze out (Not sure that the current situation is there). Noel Hunt was average in the EL, went to the SPL and got MOTM against Celtic. Injuries have slowed him down a bit, but his form there was so good there were calls for him to get into the Irish team. Dempsey went from the fecking first division to the SPL! And is superb there! The other way around, one time second heighest scorer in the SPL, still in his prime, Juan Sara came to Shels and couldn't even break the bench! If there was such a massive gap in class, or any gap in class, he'd not only have walked into our team but he'd be the best striker in the league. Instead, he was released. If there was a gap in class, the players going over would struggle to step up the players coming here would be stars, none of that is true.
No doubt none of that counts because someones seen an SPL match once so knows more than any of us, but for the uninformed, those look like pretty damning facts for the people who try to argue that the SPL, bar the old firm, is miles ahead of the EL. I would say clearly it isn't.
Well my little shamrock rovers supporting friend. I thought that was a very persuasive argument, I'm sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
One thing though, how come you brought it up. Is it because you think its true? I mean you wouldnt say the EL is as good as La Liga because its patently obvious and people would just laugh at you for saying so. Yet people arent laughing they are debating the matter.
Ive never seen a SPL division match either on TV or live. There are thereforer only some clues i can go on. The last time I saw a scottish team outside of Celtic or Rangers of Glasgow playing was Aberdeen. Funnily enough they were playing Bohs. Bohs knocked them out playing with only 10 men.
The El has progressed a lot since then. The SPL seems to have regressed.
Ok the only other way i have of comparing them is by comparing how EL teams did against teams with the same or around the same co-efficient as non Celtic and Rangers scottish teams.
Hajduk Split were knoked out be Shels. Hajduk have a better record in Europe as ranked by UEFA than the average scottish clubs (and that includes the contribution of rangers and celtic who are on a different planet compared to the average scottish club).
NEC and Malmo were knocked out by Cork City. Both teams would have around the same average as a non glasgow giant club (in the case of Malmo higher).
Where are Inverness C playing their home games this season? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by joeraki
eoin, having said you have only watched one other team play from the scot league and that was the bohs game means you can have no imput into this argument.The reason I asked the question because a bloke in work who is also a big loi fan said he thinks shels cork and bohs would fill the top 5 slots in Scotland. mmmmmm
Also did you see harts had a great win vs. basil last night!!
now I bet one of these top loi team would love to be playing in the group stages of the uefa cup!! but unfortunately the fairy tale which that's all it was ended when it should have.
Will be very surprised to see shels doing anything like what they did last year, as for cork sure they can do what they like in the intertoto.(I am not knocking achievements, they got the furthest any Irish team have ever got in a European cup and fair play to them)
But still think they would struggle. Lads honestly I have great admiration for your complete love of the league and as do I but I think that if these teams were in spl they would be struggling to stay up each year, plus if in the spl div 1 I honestly think they would only be there or there about in getting promoted! Your point re the shels striker Juan, the poor lad could not get work permit to play, if your a shels fan you'd know this, also he is now injured from playing with the 21's he is still a class player and would have given Jason a run for his money this year. Id say if his agent is any good he'll get him back to Scotland or to 1st div England he'll never get a work permit playing in this league (which again says a lot for the standard....)
Anyways in regards the other players who you mentioned all have lost there place in scot not cause of injury's cause they have not been good enough to hold there own, they were all rated as great players in Ireland and you are all lying if you say different! but found the pace of the game too much id imagine and are now lolly popped!
Neither of those things is even remotely true. He was available for selection, our manager confirmed that, and he didn't get injured for our 21s, in fact he was a regular with them because he couldn't get into the first team.Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
harts
basil
who are these teams :confused:
That would be those TV personalities Hart to Hart (thus harts)Quote:
Originally Posted by thecorner
and Fawlty, as in basil.
:D
Unless by your arguments you have seen some swiss league matchs you too are disqualified on giving an opinion on that game. Your reasoning not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGHOOP
Hearts still havent got as far as either City or shels.
Will you explain to me how Dunfermline got knocked out by an Icelandic team if these scottish teams are so good?
:confused: So what exactly would have bearing?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
All of this is a bit pointless. Didn't Limerick knock Cork City out of the cup around the same season (give or take a season) that Bohs beat Aberdeen? Does this mean that the 1st divison is of a higher quality than the eL? Barry Prenderville was BRUTAL at Ayr United but got back into St Pats first team without much difficulty. Its going back a bit I know, but I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Gilzean play for St Pats...
The truth is I don't know how the SPL and the eL shape up, the eL certainly has improved in leaps and bounds but you can't make comparisons between 'cup matches' and the experiences of a handful of players. Now if an eL club (any eL club) could go out and gub Kilm$rnock....that would make me very happy for all of the right and all of the wrong reasons
Youre comparing one off cup matchs with two legs home and away - its not the same thing.
Different sorts of leagues suit different players.
Keane and Viera failed miserable in Italy but shone in england. The same with Ian Rush - you wouldnt question their ability would you?
Anyway, its an unanswerable question.
OK but we are both pulling out unusual cirucmstances...Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Which is why I don't think we can make insightful comparisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
No but as you said different sorts of leauges suit different players. The same is true of environments. I was a bit unkind to pick on Barry Prenderville. I suspect he was deeply unhappy at Ayr which made matters worse. The sample size is a bit small to say that the average eL player would make a top class SPL player.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Indeed it is. That is the point that I was making, but what else is there to do in the closed season? If you really have nothing to do and want to get a jaundiced (realistic?) view of Scottish Football try:Quote:
Anyway, its an unanswerable question.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/offtheball/
Having been in Inverness only 2 months ago, I can assure you that the reason they're playing at Pittodrie isn't because the Caledonian Stadium is 'bad', it's because it just isn't good enough for the SPL.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
In it's pre-development state it is still better than any ground in the EL, including Tolka. Only Windsor Park on this island would be better than it.
It'll be a lovely wee stadium when they finish the new stand.
That year Shels caught Rangers out as they underwent a huge overhaul of management and players. By the time Rangers settled down they had a decent year in Europe. Same with Celtic, they were in total disarray that year and got knocked out in the next round to Dinamo Zagreb (then named Croatia) and again to FC Zurich in the UEFA. Dunfermline again lost their managers and had a pathetic start to the SPL season being bottom for a fair while. Btw, Hearts gave a fair effort to earn their co-efficient including beating Bordeaux away last season. It was only last year Shels were put out by Olimpija Ljubljana who themselves were and still are in crisis in which their manager said Shels were safely the worst team they had ever played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Last nights result:
Basel 1-2 Hearts - Decent result.
It should be based on comparing the two leagues where possible, e.g. inter-league games and players. The Cork-Limerick example doesn't neccessarily mean Limerick were better than Cork, but it meant they were capable of beating them and if they had've beaten or outclassed them several times, you could easily make a case that Limerick would hold their own against Cork in future seasons. Which is what we're doing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Smith
Watching Hibs play Kilmarnock gives absolutely no insight into whether Shels would beat Hibs. Watching Shels v Hibs would.
Prenderville is an example, he seems to be the only one where an eL player did **** in Scotland, whereas Noel Hunt, Richie Foran, That Dempsey fella, Byrne and Sara are examples to the contrary.
So, if Shels play the Duns next season and beat them 10-2 on aggegragate, it would give no insight into whether or not Shels are better than Duns?
Watching Hibs play Kilmarnock gives absolutely no insight into whether Shels would beat Hibs. Watching Shels v Hibs would.
Thats true, having seen both the eL and Slovenian league live a good few times I did not expect Olimpija to put Shels out a year ago.
Prenderville is an example, he seems to be the only one where an eL player did **** in Scotland, whereas Noel Hunt, Richie Foran, That Dempsey fella, Byrne and Sara are examples to the contrary.
Sara is no example. We never saw how he did in the eL. If he was given a proper go maybe he'd have scored double his SPL tally and proved we are a weaker league. Hunt and Foran have done just ok, hardly set the world alight. No idea about Byrne but Dempsey has been doing well. But then again they have better facilities and you could argue better team mates.
So, if Shels play the Duns next season and beat them 10-2 on aggegragate, it would give no insight into whether or not Shels are better than Duns?
It would, but then again Dunfermline have been looking pretty crap this season so it may not say much about how the leagues measure up. Had Shelbourne or Cork met them around the same time as the Icelandic game I'm sure they'd ave put them out.
I honestly think that the top 4 from Ireland would hold their own in SPL.
Just My Opinion. :cool: