State of the League

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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Originally Posted by Mr A

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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The only way forward is if clubs start to live in the real world. Offering contracts of 3-4 years worth 100k+ a year is madness.

At this moment in time can anyone see a way out of this? It's frustrating that results in Europe are improving yet we all know that's built on the back of over expenditure. I'm really depressed about all this

Silver bullet! Silver bullet!

Was saying on the other thread that this is, I think, how Platinum One's vision would end up. No wage cap, spend spend spend, worry later. I think they're gone now. Rumours on the Cork forum that Arkaga have pulled out because P1's idea is on the rocks.

The top four are spending mad money. They middle four are overstretching themselves to try and keep up someway. The bottom four are overstretching themselves to avoid relegation (honourable exceptions in places obviously). The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up. And so on down the line.

Bohs and Drogs seem in trouble; Bohs cos they're spending money they look like not getting now, and Drogs because of the ongoing ground issues and because all the while, United Park is dropping in value making the new ground more expensive. Give it a couple of years and we'll be back to ten years ago, I think - mostly part time teams with no big four and any team capable of getting into Europe. Then use your CPOs to build steadily from there. Not a bad thing either.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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The only silver bullet left is the all in gamble of the AIL, and imo that's a bluff holding a pair of 2's. The only option is to gradually build up to a point where professional football is sustainable. Although I have to say, it could be sustainable at some clubs if there were realistic wages for the standard of player being signed.

Rather than reducing the number of clubs in the premier, it may be time to look at increasing it to bring more teams to the top table. All a reduced premier is doing is driving up wages and making the risk more attractive, and hence we have so many clubs chancing their arm to survive. (As Stu puts much better than me above)

It's clear that clubs can't be trusted, so the FAI have to be more proactive when it comes to checking clubs finances. I had some hope that the Galway situation was a positive, but Cork going under the radar and now seemingly suddenly looking for examinership really means the FAI checks are worthless.

Well no- if the FAI's checks helped keep Galway on the rails then they're not worthless, regardless of what happened at Cork.

In fairness to the FAI I think they're in a nearly impossible position- it's virtually impossible to force the clubs to run themselves properly and the will just isn't there at the clubs to make it happen.

Quoting from another thread, but I think it's more appropriate here?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

With Bohs' and Drogs' ground deals in trouble, I can see in a couple of years the league going back to how it was ten years ago, to be honest.

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Was it really all that much worse 10 years ago? Crowds weren't much different, the league was more competitive albeit with lesser quality players. All the huge wages have brought ia a couple of ok results in europe with little knock on effect for the league bar massive debts and what feels like weekly reports of clubs in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Macy

Was it really all that much worse 10 years ago? Crowds weren't much different, the league was more competitive albeit with lesser quality players. All the huge wages have brought ia a couple of ok results in europe with little knock on effect for the league bar massive debts and what feels like weekly reports of clubs in trouble...

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I agree. That's where I think it'll end up though.

And then start to build up with concentration on sustainability, community involvement and proper planning. Sure we might not get the same Euro results and the standard of play may dip a little (but not very much- I don't think the league would lose many players) but the whole thing would be on a solid foundation at last.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The top four are spending mad money. They middle four are overstretching themselves to try and keep up someway. The bottom four are overstretching themselves to avoid relegation (honourable exceptions in places obviously). The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up. And so on down the line.
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I'd agree with the "big four" spending mad money but not the middle four. Bray, Rovers and UCD seem to be ok. Derry are ok but there chairman has hinted about going back part time.
In the bottom four Galway, Sligo, Harps all got into trouble for going Full-Time when they probably should have stayed part-time. Cobh are in trouble as in reality they are a small club and would always have difficulties competing.
In the 1st Division only Waterford out of the top four are overstretching, Shels seem to be ok and being run right, Fingal although are spending ridiculous money on wages are fully funded for 5 years and according to our club owner we are going to have our most successful financial year to date. Clubs just need to learn from there mistakes. Unfortunately it seems clubs have to almost face extinction before they run their clubs right. Just look at Rovers, Shels and Dundalk for example.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

And then start to build up with concentration on sustainability, community involvement and proper planning. Sure we might not get the same Euro results and the standard of play may dip a little (but not very much- I don't think the league would lose many players) but the whole thing would be on a solid foundation at last.

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I think summer season and the improvement in coaching and training facilities should prevent the league from regressing too far. As has been pointed out the majority of players would still be playing here even if they were paid a whole lot less. We might lose a small fraction of the current elite, but the overall standard of the league would be hardly affected. Sustainability is the primary key.

It looks like most teams will just go back part-time.

Not every player is going to up and leave for England/Scotland - there's only interest in a handful of players anyway so they'll simply have to stay where they are and just take wage cuts and in most cases get another job.

The wages paid in this league for very average players is pretty shocking, especially considering how little players give back to the clubs they play for.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

At the moment things look bad:

Cork in big trouble, possibly terminal. Rumours of problems at Bohs. Galway United having to cut wages and release several players. Sligo having to release a lot of players and needing to raise serious money by end of August to keep going. Cobh having problems. Harps having to defer wages. Derry chairman worried about sustaining their expenditure. Kildare rumoured to have major problems and Waterford known to be up to their necks in hurt.

And that's just what we know about.....

So do we look for the next silver bullet solution or do we make a long term plan as a league and try to gradually build up to a point where professional football can be sustained?

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I think that the sooner 2-3 professional youth academies are set up, the better in order to pump low wage, technically good talent into the league. It should help reduce the problems. I think that the FAI should put more money into full time youth academies where mid to late teens get an education and professional training - not so much fitness but work on strength, pace but most of all their technical ability to play football. Its important not to burn them out though. I think irish players are good physically by nature but lack a lot technically. The efflux of young players to Britain has to stop - they get burnt out or don't play at all. How many are really making the grade now - none probably. Stephen Ireland is average and he is probably the last young Irishman to make the breakthrough and he has major problems.

Its also important to introduce Psychologists at an early age to help players prepare mentally for matches and help them deal with the media. Furthermore, nutritionists and dieticians are important.

Regarding the 1st division, part time status should be abandonded. There should be no intermediate between amateur level and professional level. I think that 1st division teams should be forced to have 5 players on the pitch at all times that are under the age of 21 and that have come through their youth ranks.

The other part to the puzzle is more help from the media, Government and FAI, not just in terms of funding but also in putting together a plan. Having a side in the UEFA Cup group stages or CL group stages could be an extremely positive thing for the country, rather than Irish people forking out 1000s to go watch UK teams (and still be called Paddies).

Short term, well I think that the 10 team league will help but more of the clubs in the 1st division and lower half premeir should concentrate on youth development - imagine if UCD were able to keep all their players and offer them full time contracts. They would be be very close to the top of the league!!!

Thats some of my basic views anyway.

Bottom line is nobody (not enough anyway) wants to watch domestic football. No amount of marketing, wage restructuring etc will change that.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The top four in the First are overstretching themselves to get promoted and stay up.

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What do you base this on? We are going to breakeven at worst this year.

A few of us have been saying around here for a while now that this league will have to be stripped right back and rebuilt from the bottom up. Wages have to come right down, clubs have to go part time, the FAI have to get the juniors involved at some level (ideally in a structured league system), the wage cap has to be enforced, and the big clubs have to be kept on a tight lease and not chase that Champions League glory at all costs. Restructuring the league into one Premier, supported by the provience's senior leagues is vital in my opinion. It brings more of the community into the game and provides the crucial relegation/promotion that is needed in competitive football. That's just a start though

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Originally Posted by CMcC

Bottom line is nobody (not enough anyway) wants to watch domestic football. No amount of marketing, wage restructuring etc will change that.

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If Pats qualify for UEFA cup or CL or any other team then you would be surprised at how many would watch it. If any Irish team qualifies for the CL you will fill Croke Park for each of their matches!!

I don't think this league needs bar stoolers or office workers/talkers to make this league a success. I think if every club does its best and improves with the help of the FAI and Government then it will work.

Irish football is quickly catching Scottish football for example and Scottish football has good support. Just watch Celtic this weekend, you may be surprised by how poor they really are.

Can we bin all talk of group stages of europe. That's exactly the type of talk that has the league in such a mess - clubs chasing the holy grail.

With the UEFA Cup and the CL restructuring coming in next season, I don't think saying that a LOI club could get to the group stages within the next 5 years is the pipe dream it once was - our league is getting better plus it will be easier to advance!

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Originally Posted by finnpark

If Pats qualify for UEFA cup or CL or any other team then you would be surprised at how many would watch it. If any Irish team qualifies for the CL you will fill Croke Park for each of their matches!!

I don't think this league needs bar stoolers or office workers/talkers to make this league a success. I think if every club does its best and improves with the help of the FAI and Government then it will work.

Irish football is quickly catching Scottish football for example and Scottish football has good support. Just watch Celtic this weekend, you may be surprised by how poor they really are.

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No arguement here about the quality of our league and the merits (or lack of) of the SPL. That is not my point. I'm sure they will get a good gate for their European games and didnt we all see what a good gate Shels got in Landsdown vs Depor. However these are flashes in the pan and not enough to sustain a club medium term and its dicey relying on a european run (a la Shels and Leeds Utd) for financial stability because you ahve to spend spend spend to ensure you get that run.

I have no doubt people will turn up for the 'big games' and that is my point. The great Irish sporting public are event junkies who will attend the big day out - the big hyped, shiney, glossy event but wont be back until the next big day out the following year or couple of years.

Irish people dont want to see Bohs v Rovers or Dundalk vs Limerick in any numbers and there in lies the problem. If your product doesnt sell or isnt fulfilling a basic need then you have to see if your product is worth selling at all.

Time for a radical rethink - wages will alway be a problem - thats a professional football problem not unique to Ireland. Either go totally amateur ( imo not a runner) or realistically look at an AIL (not necessarily Plat 1 propoasl). Somethings got to happen and soon.