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Remember when Turkey were the weak link in our Euro92 Group? We expected to turn them over and duly did; 5-0 in Lansdowne and 1-3 in Istanbul. Did we take a wrong turn since then? Our road taking us to defeat to eventual defeat to Cyprus. Turkey's road taking them to World Cup and European Championship semi-finals. Turkish football the most improved in Europe over the last 15-20 years, both at domestic and International level?
Discuss.
http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=963220&postcount=36
i made the same point in the "Are We Any Good" thread but it was largley dismissed. I think the correlation between the european successes of Turkeys domestic teams first and the ensuing success of the national team is blindingly obvious.
Well Turkey also has a massive population advantage. That population can sustain large clubs such as Galatassry etc. It's not like with like.
Lads, be honest, Turkey are better than us, I could not see Ireland beating them.
They have a great manager, Fathi Terim.
oh come off it. The question is not one of population - it is how did Turkey go from whipping boys to world beaters? And how did we go from WC quarter finalists to regular failure to qualify?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
but if you want to talk about the relevance of population... Croatia has a comparable population and is far far far out performing Ireland and is able to sustain a well supported league despite the presence of Serie A "across the water"...
agree with TheBoss - Turkey are way better than us. And they have an excellent manager.
But these dont explain their development and success in the past 15-20 years.
The referee was from Sweden he awarded Ireland a penalty and John Aldridge hailed a taxi, tied his shoe laces and scratch his own arse before he struck the ball.
Th immediate joke at the time (jokes lasted up to three years back then) was 'cos the referee was from Sweden ( again, back then the referees provenience was important, not like now of course). He didn't want England to qualify to his country's championship nor Turkey. Poland and Polish supportres would be tight with there money, so the Rep. of Ireland was the simple answer. It wasn't happening at Lansdowne so the ref. helped Ireland out.
The two Turkey games were the least significant games in the group. Ever other game the Rep. of Irl. played was significant for missed chances or final results.
The eventually result was England (Gary Lineker) scored with 7 minutes to go in Poland (Perhaps Poznan) the same time as the Rep. of Irl. were beating Turkey.
Turkey' as a threat?:
Yes, there is some resentment in Ireland regarding Turkey. Some of it is to do with the fact they knocked us out of a play-off. How extraordinarily rude.
Football in Ireland has always been at a disadvantage in that it is always competing with GAA and Rugby, and also with football in England and Scotland too. Creating a successful domestic league in Ireland will be a big challenge because of that. Maybe there are similarities in Turkey but if there are I am not aware of them.
me neither Emmet. I dont think there are such competing sports there. I still find that excuse a bit poor though. Because the counter argument, then, in our case is that, if soccer is competing with GAA and rugby and struggling then maybe Ireland simply isnt a soccer country and that the best we can and should rightfully hope for is that England can develop enough players for us to qualify for the odd major championship...Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet
i happen to think we ARE a soccer country just an extremely lazy one.
The reason for Turkey's success has been very well documented and is largely due to a large influx in the 80s & 90s of foreign coaches particularly from Germany. They got stronger tactically and more importantly psycholgically. Bottom line this all cost a lot of money and didn't happen by accident it was planned and financed.
The reason for their development was all those hammerings by the big teams, over the years, the young fans in Turkey got motivated by these games which leads to a mass playing field for Turkish youngsters wanting to play these nations, so as the years go on, pool of players becomes much more, the national team improves every year and then the quality improves to make a great national side.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss
ah sure we're grand then! cant wait!
I'm not sure ... look how difficult it was to get the GAA to let our football team use Croke Park. Up until recently it was difficult for youngsters in some parts of the country to play GAA and soccer - a lot were made to choose one or the other. GAA and rugby have been played in Ireland for longer and soccer is still referred to as the Garrison Game by some (although not by many admittedly!) However, culturally I do think that soccer is still seen as an English game by quite a few Irish people and that makes some uncomfortable accepting it and supporting it. Obviously that's not a view I share and I also don't think that is the only reason why domestic football in Ireland is in the state it's in; but I do think it is a contributing factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The game of football has changed dramatically since 1990/91, it should be noted. What worked back then would be hopelessly naive now.
If I recall correctly, we played Turkey in the first and last games of the group, when they were less cohesive (we'd just come back from a bonding session in Italy - ahem), and then when they were out and the game mattered little to them.
They had also just appointed a central European coach (I keep thinking Ernest Happoel), and you could see a developement in their play between our home and away games with them.
I remember that they were pilloried for their passing triangles in the British and Irish media, for not going straight into attack - there has been a significant change in attitude there.
They were technically less adept than now all round the field, but then again, we weren't that mcuh better in that department.
It also should be noted, that the hunger to do well does seem to have diminished here - we were happy to get to our quarter final, and to be thought of as being plucky. Thanks to Attaturk, all those years back, the Turks believe that they should do well at whatever they commit to, so generally they tend to attempt to excel when they see that they do OK in something, thus driving on the development.
Of course, what they new, more religiously led government is an indication of will take a time to manifest.
I also remember us stuffing them 4-0 with Don Givens getting all four.
Frankly I am amazed we've done as well as we have had over the years with a tiny population, no national league worthy of the name in terms of support and a national game that actually banned people playing the sport for years. We just can't be compared to Turkey in any reasonable way. All they needed was a bit of organisation. And it gets worse for us with the competition in England for places in the various teams from all over Europe and beyond. Previously our players had only to compete with Scots and the Welsh.
Not optimistic about the future.
Id imagine the influx of Turkish players (beit 1st, 2nd Generation etc..)to the Bundesliga for example has more than lilely had a positive effect on its national side. Good coaches, competitive league, winning mentatility..........
ah thats it, the EPL probably has No 1 and 2 but falls at number 3.............:D
I think it just shows with hard work and proper structures, anything is possible. Lets not forget Turkey did extremely well in the 2002 World Cup. People where saying it was a fluke back then but this year proved it wasnt. They are a fantastic footballing side and were unlucky not to beat Germany last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donadoni
It should be motivation for everyone involved with Ireland and the FAI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The prevalence of GAA and rugby definetly dilutes the pool of players available to play soccer.There are so many brilliant natural athletes in our country who will never play soccer. I can't think of any other European country that has 4 field sports played at such a wide level.
I think the organisation and belief that Greece displayed in the last Euro's are a great example of what can be achieved by teams of limited ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donadoni
Trapp has reportedly uttered "Remember Greece" as a mantra on a few occasions to the players.
I think Euro 2008 were all about the team ethic as opposed to many outstanding individuals.
Turkey are a fine example of a team unified to one purpose with willing runners all over the pitch.
The Euro 2008 tournament has brought Ireland's lack of a centre midfield into sharper focus more than ever. Some of the teams at the finals are on a different footballing planet to us at the moment.
I fail to see why so many people are highligting population. India and China have populations of over 1 billion, yet have only been in one world cup between them. Sweden only has a population of 9 million yet regularly qualify and do well at tournament. Croatia have a population of just 4.5 million, Czech Republic 10 million and Denmark 5.5 million. These countries regularly qualify for major competitions with Denmark being a past winner. It is much too simple to say that Turkey is doing well because it has a bigger population than us