Democracy and the Intelligent Electorate

Is anybody out there really surprised that bertie is playing silly beggars with the tribunal ?

Are we seriously saying that the electorate could not reasonably have seen that play coming a mile away ?

bertie played a game of "wait until the trubunal does its work" and then delayed his appearances until after the election and now we are all shocked.

Absolutely pathetic - I don't blame him - I blame the electorate for its blindness to realpolitik - let's call a spade a spade - the only reason Kenny is not Taoiseach is that he is a crap media performer.

A sizeable chunk of the electorate base their voting intentions on the soundbite on TV3 news, which is why the politicians focus on soundbites.

Our Taoiseach is a joke and his behaviour on this tribunal issue is a national embarrassment. I don't think he is a dishonest guy, I just think he is trying to prtect himself form what he would believe to be embarrassing aspects of his personal life.

His legendary (and deliberate) inability to articulate anything in clear english is now coming back to bite.

The key point, however, is that this administration, and the last 2, have shown themselves to be incapable of managing anythinhg but because Cowen and Bertie approached the Indo 3 weeks out from the election, promised Harris a senate seat, the coverage turned and they were re-elected by an electorate with huge swathes of people who are unbelievably politically naive.

Agree with all that bar one thing, I do think Bertie is dishonest

I would largely agree, although whether you can pin it on the whole electorate when only 41%ish voted FF. However I suppose you could widen it out to see that the two main parties are basically only split on an oath of allegiance and how corrupt/ clean they are.

I strongly disagree with you in that I don't believe Ahern is honest. There is no reason for the latest action except to hide information. There was no reason for his previous actions either, except to hide information using his wife and kids as cover.

In my view all the TD's on the Government benches might as well have taken the money themselves due to their own lack of action before now. How the Greens and Independents can support Ahern after this I genuinely don't know. Presumably they've got the whiff of power and money themselves.

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Originally Posted by Angus

A sizeable chunk of the electorate base their voting intentions on the soundbite on TV3 news, which is why the politicians focus on soundbites.

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I would say a sizeable chunk of the electorate base their voting on the local runners; i.e. it doesn't matter the charisma of the party leader; if the local candidate is a gombeen then people won't vote for them.
Does that make the electorate any more or less intelligent?

to be honest about it I think the Greens will have to regroup as a party after Fianna Fail eventually cast them aside. Going into power with them has been disasterous for them in my opinion. I gave them my number two vote last year, and I know quite a few who did similiar, or even gave them their number one vote, but I won't make that mistake again. They are proof that giving anyone any bit of power will lead to that person abandoning all principles to hang onto it. A lot of the Green voters I know have completely turned away from the party now, and it will take a total change in direction by the Party to bring them back, that or they will end up like Fianna Fail's last plaything, the PDs

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Originally Posted by jebus

A lot of the Green voters I know have completely turned away from the party now, and it will take a total change in direction by the Party to bring them back, that or they will end up like Fianna Fail's last plaything, the PDs

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Weren't they a show band or something? I seem to recall the band leader kicking out their singer and then they fell apart; though she has had a reasonably successful solo career, suggesting that she was the reason that the band kept going so long after their time...

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Originally Posted by Bluebeard

Weren't they a show band or something? I seem to recall the band leader kicking out their singer and then they fell apart; though she has had a reasonably successful solo career, suggesting that she was the reason that the band kept going so long after their time...

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No you're thinking of the Sex Pistols I believe, easy mistake to make :)

Bertie is a joke. He is totally dishonest. His ramblings in the Mahon tribunal are showing that. The fact that he wants to stop investigations into his private affairs indicate he doesn't want something to be uncovered. I think Shatter said it on Q&A last night that he's been going on about being honest and cooperating fully with the tribunal and now he's stretching it out even longer and simply refusing to cooperate fully.

Someone mentioned that some people may vote simply because of the candidiate, not for the party. This is what I did as I felt a local councillor was doing a good enough job. Unfortunately, this is the way a lot of people vote but one TD for a big party won't make much difference as he mainly just back his party (the guy I voted for was from a small party so he would have had even less effect when I look back now).

Surely it's time Biffo overthrows Bertie in a coup d'etat of sorts and seizes power. FF will still be in charge for the next 4 years and they might keep the voters confidence, and some dignity, if they remove the idiot. Bertie is a joke of a national leader and an insult to the electorate.

I don't know much about Biffo but he can't be as low as Bertie.

Bertie is now an embarrassment & a lame duck Taoiseach. I used to think he was honest but hiding embarrassing facts but now I believe he is hiding some serious dirt & most likely as corrupt as the best of them.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Agree with all that bar one thing, I do think Bertie is dishonest

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And you also think Ruud Van Nistelrooy bullies teammates about their father's cancer. When you dislike someone, you really go all out. ;)

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

And you also think Ruud Van Nistelrooy bullies teammates about their father's cancer. When you dislike someone, you really go all out. ;)

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Is there evidence of that? And did Van Nistelrooy take multiple court cases to supress evidence of it?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

And you also think Ruud Van Nistelrooy bullies teammates about their father's cancer. When you dislike someone, you really go all out. ;)

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The Holocaust was Ruud's idea as well, but I didn't mention it :) As Macy said as my proper reply though.

Plus Charles Haughey, yes Satan himself, reckoned Bertie was as underhanded as the rest of them, which speaks volumes about the man and his Oirish Buffoon image if you ask me

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Originally Posted by jebus

The Holocaust was Ruud's idea as well, but I didn't mention it :) As Macy said as my proper reply though.

Plus Charles Haughey, yes Satan himself, reckoned Bertie was as underhanded as the rest of them, which speaks volumes about the man and his Oirish Buffoon image if you ask me

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If I recall correctly, CJ reckoned that Bertie was the most crafty one of the whole pack. And he didn't get where he was back in the day by not reckoning Bertie as the most crafty one of the whole pack...

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Originally Posted by Macy

Is there evidence of that? And did Van Nistelrooy take multiple court cases to supress evidence of it?

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Is there any actual evidence against Bertie? The closest I've seen is the disagreements about what currency was what in the bank, aside from that the case seems to be built on his suspicious behavior.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

Is there any actual evidence against Bertie? The closest I've seen is the disagreements about what currency was what in the bank, aside from that the case seems to be built on his suspicious behavior.

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The Tribunal works on the balance of probabilities, not beyond reasonable doubt. The fact that he had so much cash floating about which he can't explain, that his figures don't add up on what he claims were punt and sterling amounts is enough for me. Add to that this his second court case to supress the investigation and questioning (previously he has hid a lot of transaction's behind his estranged wife and kids) now we have him not willing to stand over public statements. He's also been very lucky to have piggybacked on cases taken by the Lawlor's and O'Callaghan.

It's enough evidence for me to draw my own conclusions. Surely if you had nothing to hide you'd actually encourage the investigation to clear your name?

The fact that none of the cabinet will move to shift him shows FF are rotten to their very core.

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Originally Posted by Macy

The Tribunal works on the balance of probabilities, not beyond reasonable doubt. The fact that he had so much cash floating about which he can't explain, that his figures don't add up on what he claims were punt and sterling amounts is enough for me. Add to that this his second court case to supress the investigation and questioning (previously he has hid a lot of transaction's behind his estranged wife and kids) now we have him not willing to stand over public statements. He's also been very lucky to have piggybacked on cases taken by the Lawlor's and O'Callaghan.

It's enough evidence for me to draw my own conclusions. Surely if you had nothing to hide you'd actually encourage the investigation to clear your name?

The fact that none of the cabinet will move to shift him shows FF are rotten to their very core.

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I see what you mean about the balance of probabilities but even at that standard, I think the argument that Bertie has unexplained cash therefore he took a bribe to support Liffy Vally Shopping Centre contains a few leaps of faith. It's equally possible that he's hiding some piece of personal finance or that the money is the proceeds of some other criminal act.

Even allowing for all that, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of a man loosing his job or his colleagues being called rotten to the core on the basis of a 50:50 chance. I'd need to see a little more evidence and a little less jumping to conclusions for me to make my mind up one way or the other.

It's not 50-50. He had large amounts of unexplainable cash going through his accounts when he was Minister for Finance. I don't care if it is his bloody communion money, that type of shoddy behaviour is not that standard that anyone should be accepting of a cabinet minister, never mind the leader of the country.

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Originally Posted by Macy

It's not 50-50. He had large amounts of unexplainable cash going through his accounts when he was Minister for Finance. I don't care if it is his bloody communion money, that type of shoddy behaviour is not that standard that anyone should be accepting of a cabinet minister, never mind the leader of the country.

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I think we have an honest difference of opinion so. In my mind, something that's unexplained is not necessarily illegal. If the tribunal gets some evidence against him then I'll change my mind but at the moment I wouldn't be confident going any further than saying that he's acting like he's guilty of something.