League of Ireland Structure

I’d be interested to hear people’s views on this…

I think that a proper structure in this country should exist regarding divisions.
What I mean by this is that, a clear line could be drawn from a club in the lowest tier of football in the country, to the Eircom Premier.

We obviously don't have sufficient population to sustain very many professional clubs, but I think that football in this country would benefit from having such a structure. Now that we have added a 3rd tier of sorts, to the national league structure I felt it a good time to debate the subject.

What I suggest is that perhaps, clubs outside of the current EL structure could be offered a place in the A league every season. I use the word "offered". Not every club that wins their regional or county league would have the desire or the finances to compete in a national competition. In these instances, it would be prudent for many either to decline or be 100% sure they are capable of survival.

Now that the FAI seem to be tightening up their control and scrutiny of clubs in the league, maybe the timing will soon be right to improve or at least alter, the league system.

They seem to change around the Eircom League every other season, so why not give the lesser local clubs the chance to rise up through the ranks, or at least the belief that they can do so.

For example, England has a 24-tier league structure. Obviously England has more than 10 times the population of the Republic. This is reflected in the fact that the League of Ireland structure only has 2 tiers, perhaps 3 if you were to count the A league. 22 clubs and 2 A league sides.

The first 11 tiers and the English structure have 1,600 or 1,700 teams. You can double that for the total amount of clubs in the structure. You then arrive at a rather conservative figure of roughly 3,000 clubs. All capable of reaching the top tier, in theory of course. A tenth of that would be 300. Does Ireland have 300 clubs in its structure? 200? 100? 50? 25? Obviously there are more clubs in Ireland than the 25 in the EL, but I believe the current system is stunting the growth of clubs outside it. One of the factors that contributes to the success of the English game as a whole, is that every team can make it, in theory.

Soccer's major competitor on a local level all over this country is GAA, but take a look at their structure for a moment. The main focus of all these clubs seems to be the Senior County Championship. Every club in the country has a chance to compete in this. Clubs in the Intermediate and Junior levels can all, in theory, be promoted to the Senior grade. Teams competing in the their Senior County Championship have the possibility of playing on the provincial or national stage, at a senior level.

Irish soccer clubs below the elite of the Eircom League don't have that chance, apart from the odd appearance in the FAI Cup. And believe me, I use "elite" for the want of a better word. I don’t believe that there should be any huge changes as such, but a play-off system or proper provincial leagues countywide are what I have in mind.
As far as provincial leagues go, the existing ones tend to be concentrated in Dublin and Cork respectively. No provincial league exists in Connacht currently, although there was a meeting discussing the matter before Christmas, although I know nothing about it other than that. I would favour a system where the champions of each respective province, were invited into the A league. That would give a new perspective to these leagues. I know nothing about the LSL or the MSL, but I’m sure that teams in Connacht would like a crack at the provincial and national stage. MSL teams would benefit from it also, as we all know that they are better than everybody else anyway.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else?

Send you comments to icouldcarelesswhatyeethink@gmail.com

Didnt we have this thread last week?

If we did, I didn't see it. Sorry, i'll have a look...

It may have been the All-Ireland one I'm thinking of. Still, a lot of your ideas would fit, and indeed were discussed, in that thread. I fully agree with you, of course.

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

I know nothing about the LSL or the MSL, but I’m sure that teams in Connacht would like a crack at the provincial and national stage. MSL teams would benefit from it also, as we all know that they are better than everybody else anyway.

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Although there is a thread on this every other week here, they always stir interest.

In my opinion, you could go 2 ways with it.

1. Have the eircom League as a closed shop league (as it is currently) and only invite teams in that can add something to the league. If you are going to do this and you want a more even spread geographically, then you would invite representative teams from the non participating counties to join the A Championship. Kerry League, mayo league etc. To compare it to the GAA, this would be like the inter-county championships and would be more like a franchise system.

or

2. You could place the LSL and MSL leagues directly below the A championship with guaranteed promotion from these leagues. The problem with this IMO, is that by sheer volume of numbers (good players) there would probably be a lot of Dublin teams getting promoted which would further imbalance the league geographically. (People think there are enough Dublin clubs as it is).

IMO, any league put in place below the first division should be regionalised. A 3rd national tier is not financially feasable for clubs. As it stands, its not financially feasable for some 1st div clubs e.g. Kilkenny.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

In my opinion, you could go 2 ways with it.

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I agree

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

...invite representative teams from the non participating counties to join the A Championship. Kerry League, mayo league etc... ...would be more like a franchise system.

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Again, I can't fault that logic. You mentioned "franchise" and the GAA County Championship. I think an idea somewhere along the lines of, each county having at least 1 representative at Senior provincial level, with teams finishing in the lower places being relegated back to their own district league and being replaced by the the champions of the latter.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

IMO, any league put in place below the first division should be regionalised. A 3rd national tier is not financially feasable for clubs. As it stands, its not financially feasable for some 1st div clubs e.g. Kilkenny.

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Couldn't agree more. But a clear structure where progression is possible is needed IMO.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

(People think there are enough Dublin clubs as it is).

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I am one of them. Kilkenny being replaced by another club was a disaster on two fronts. The folding of another club due to money trouble, and yet another Dublin club joining the league.

I agree with a fair amount of what you say.

Some disagreements though.

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

The first 11 tiers and the English structure have 1,600 or 1,700 teams. You can double that for the total amount of clubs in the structure. You then arrive at a rather conservative figure of roughly 3,000 clubs. All capable of reaching the top tier, in theory of course. A tenth of that would be 300. Does Ireland have 300 clubs in its structure? 200? 100? 50? 25? Obviously there are more clubs in Ireland than the 25 in the EL, but I believe the current system is stunting the growth of clubs outside it. One of the factors that contributes to the success of the English game as a whole, is that every team can make it, in theory.

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The main reason that we cont compare to English football in terms of clubs per population is, I believe, because the fans don't want to watch local football. GAA and live Premier League on TV being 2 main reasons.

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

I think an idea somewhere along the lines of, each county having at least 1 representative at Senior provincial level, with teams finishing in the lower places being relegated back to their own district league and being replaced by the the champions of the latter.

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That might lead to some teams never getting a chance though. Say for example the Dublin or Cork team never finishes in the relegation zone (not unlikely given the population centres and amount of footballing talent). The champions of the district league would have very little to play for (apart from wanting to win the district league itself, obviously) because they would be aware that they won't get a place in the next league anyway.

You'd end up with a club from, say.... Leitrim, finishing bottom, and being replaced by the Leitrim district league champions, while far superior clubs from Cork or Dublin can't get into the league.

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

Again, I can't fault that logic. You mentioned "franchise" and the GAA County Championship. I think an idea somewhere along the lines of, each county having at least 1 representative at Senior provincial level, with teams finishing in the lower places being relegated back to their own district league and being replaced by the the champions of the latter.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

That might lead to some teams never getting a chance though. Say for example the Dublin or Cork team never finishes in the relegation zone (not unlikely given the population centres and amount of footballing talent). The champions of the district league would have very little to play for (apart from wanting to win the district league itself, obviously) because they would be aware that they won't get a place in the next league anyway.

You'd end up with a club from, say.... Leitrim, finishing bottom, and being replaced by the Leitrim district league champions, while far superior clubs from Cork or Dublin can't get into the league.

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I think ye have misunderstood what I meant by representative teams.

I mean these teams would be made up of the best players in their respective leagues. So they couldn't get relegated as all their team would be made up of the best players in their league. They could still play for their clubs and still get a call up to the county team.

For example: If it was a kerry team, it would be make up of some players from Tralee, some from Killarney etc. So kerry could not be relegated into the Kerry league if you know what I mean?? It would be a closed shop franchise system, which seems to be a dirty word with a lot of football fans, but it should be considered.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

I think ye have misunderstood what I meant by representative teams.

I mean these teams would be made up of the best players in their respective leagues. So they couldn't get relegated as all their team would be made up of the best players in their league. They could still play for their clubs and still get a call up to the county team.

For example: If it was a kerry team, it would be make up of some players from Tralee, some from Killarney etc. So kerry could not be relegated into the Kerry league if you know what I mean??

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Maybe we did miss the point of what you were proposing, but in any case I would agree that the lesser counties would never survive in a provincial league unless they were representative teams. This would give any new prospective EL club emerging out of league the best chance possible. Having the pick of the players from a league rather than the champions of it makes a huge difference. Not least the standard of football. I'd actually go to see matches in a Connacht Senior League involving Galway & DL if it were to be ressurrected. The stadium for them is already there. Terryland Park belongs to the Galway FA.

Giving our Junior players the chance to play at the highest level possible can only benefit the sport. It gives the best players in the junior league a better chance of developing into EL players

Gets a thumbs up from me anyways.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

It would be a closed shop franchise system, which seems to be a dirty word with a lot of football fans, but it should be considered.

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It is a dirty word and shall not be uttered here anymore...

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Originally Posted by osarusan

You'd end up with a club from, say.... Leitrim, finishing bottom, and being replaced by the Leitrim district league champions,

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Leitrim dont have a DL. AFAIK it is a combined league called the Sligo/Leitrim DL

I did not understand the reason for the A Championship initially but it makes sense now.

- It prepares teams for the 1st division.
- Allows relegated 1st division teams to get themselves promoted.
- Ensures teams joining the 1st division have better structures.

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Originally Posted by pete

I did not understand the reason for the A Championship initially but it makes sense now.

- It prepares teams for the 1st division.
- Allows relegated 1st division teams to get themselves promoted.
- Ensures teams joining the 1st division have better structures.

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Yes, and the whole point I was trying to get at as regards the junior clubs is that a structure needs to be in place so that they too are strong enough to compete in the A league.

Personally I'd have a 16 team Premier league team with two relegation spots, one automatic, one to be decided by playoff. Underneath that I'd scrap the current First Division and have two 10 team leagues, one being akin to the LSL, the other including Munster and Connaught teams. The winners of both these leagues would enter a playoff with the winner getting the automatic sopot and the loser entering a playoff with second bottom of the Premier. I would keep entry requirements, if neither of the teams can meet the entry requirements then the relegated Premier teams keep their spot

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Originally Posted by jebus

Personally I'd have a 16 team Premier league team with two relegation spots, one automatic, one to be decided by playoff.

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Is that because its L37's only hope of getting promoted?!

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Originally Posted by Rovers fan

Is that because its L37's only hope of getting promoted?!

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Nail on head :D

Pending on our DVD presentation of course

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Originally Posted by jebus

Nail on head :D

Pending on our DVD presentation of course

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I'd stop right there with the Galway jokes coz we'll be down to get ye on Friday!

If you can get someone that'll let you lot play ball on their field for a few hours that is.

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Originally Posted by pete

I did not understand the reason for the A Championship initially but it makes sense now.

- It prepares teams for the 1st division.
- Allows relegated 1st division teams to get themselves promoted.
- Ensures teams joining the 1st division have better structures.

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Given that throughout the entire history of the League of Ireland, there has never been a period of more than 4 consecutive seasons without some sort of change in the names and/or composition of the clubs that make-up the league, I strongly suspect the A league concept is driven almost entirely by a desire to have an adequately prepared pool of 'reserve' clubs to fill the gaps in the senior divisions that inevitably arise (e.g. Kilkenny City, Dublin City).

If it fulfills that task alone, then it will have been an extremely positive development for domestic football IMO. No more last minute scrabbling to plug a gap with teams that invariably turn-out to be woefully ill-prepared for the senior game.

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

I'd stop right there with the Galway jokes coz we'll be down to get ye on Friday!

If you can get someone that'll let you lot play ball on their field for a few hours that is.

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Calm down, I'm paying Galway a compliment here, I fully endorse the 'can't do it on the pitch? Hire a robbing piece of trash as your commercial manager and let him schmooze your way to the big boy table'. I'm hoping our Yank has the same creditentials as your boy is all

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Originally Posted by jebus

Calm down, I'm paying Galway a compliment here, I fully endorse the 'can't do it on the pitch? Hire a robbing piece of trash as your commercial manager and let him schmooze your way to the big boy table'. I'm hoping our Yank has the same creditentials as your boy is all

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Ara calm down yerself, I was only messin. And btw, our "robbin piece of trash" has overseen a big increase in revenue since his arrival. I'm not saying it was all his doing or anything of a sort, but he had a big hand in it. Despite his persona, he has a very good head on him.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Personally I'd have a 16 team Premier league team with two relegation spots, one automatic, one to be decided by playoff. Underneath that I'd scrap the current First Division and have two 10 team leagues, one being akin to the LSL, the other including Munster and Connaught teams. The winners of both these leagues would enter a playoff with the winner getting the automatic sopot and the loser entering a playoff with second bottom of the Premier. I would keep entry requirements, if neither of the teams can meet the entry requirements then the relegated Premier teams keep their spot

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there is merit to this but i'd reckon that the teams who get promoted into the top division may be somewhat under prepared for the standard. the two regional leagues you talk of would obviously be amateur and part-time. the jump would be massive.

the league would then really become a battle for honours between 2 or 3 clubs and a battle to avoid relegation by another 3 or 4 and these would more than likely be the recently promoted teams. that would mean approximately 10 teams would survive in the tedium of mid table with little to play for season after season.

imo an AIL is really the only way that we can sustain 2 or 3 divisions of well run and well supported teams in this country.

There isn't enough quality in the league to have 16 competitive teams in a premier division. If an AIL were to happen, a larger premier division would be the way to go IMO, playing teams 3 or 4 times a season is too much.