Relationship between Junior Clubs and LOI Teams

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15/01/2008, 12:31 PM
galwayhoop

Relationship between Junior Clubs and LOI Teams

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

- Can the FAI, who administrate football at all levels in the country do anything about the relationship between eL and Junior football. How long will this Hari Kari continue?

they already have. didn't they introdue the payment of �1,500 compensation to the junior club when a player signs with a LoI club along with 10% of the next sale.

the problem is � 1,500 is a pittance. junior clubs point to the work put into the player for maybe 10 or 15 years. of course junior clubs don't seem to realize that said player can move willy nilly from junior club to junior club without any compensation. they only really get their knickers in a twist when a player moves to Senior football.

junior players are amateurs (supposed to be anyway) and so are their clubs. junior clubs are often sceptical/suspicious of the LoI clubs taking all the top players from their clubs and are unable to see that it is better for each player to play at the highest level possible.

i think it is more of a mindset difference between the 2 levels and can only be addressed by dialogue between the clubs - not enforcement from the FAI.

it is in no-ones interests to make it difficult for a player to progress from junior/intermediate to senior football. the introduction of compensation at least gives something to the junior club and is cheap enough to not make it prohibitive for the LoI club to sign players from Junior.

short of creating a forum between the Junior clubs and LoI clubs in a local area I can't see what the FAI can do!!
15/01/2008, 12:56 PM
monutdfc

A good junior player has no incentive to step up to senior football if he is going to sit on the bench. The A League goes some way to bridge this gap, but it would be good if players could step back down to junior football more easily, or even play at both levels until they have played a certain number of games for example.

The gaa is a good model for this. At Club level, the best players are nominated senior players and cannot play in the reserve leagues. The best club players play for their county. The best county players don't play for their clubs during the summer months (this varies from county to county). For First Division sides, a similar model could be devised, which would result in the local eL club being a representative club for the city/town/region. Players would be honoured to play for them rather than faced with a decision that could leave them with no football for a season - in this case many decide to stick to junior football. What if instead a player can still play for his junior club unless he has played, say 10, eLoI games? It would create a link rather than a conflict between junior clubs and LoI clubs. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but some lateral thinking might come up with a system that could work.
15/01/2008, 1:03 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

No guarantee that all/any of these will be raised, never mind answered. Just putting on this before people start whinging come Monday

There in lies the problem, we need more of these.

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

they already have. didn't they introduce the payment of �1,500 compensation to the junior club when a player signs with a LoI club along with 10% of the next sale.

Didn't know this y'see

Quote:

the problem is � 1,500 is a pittance. junior clubs point to the work put into the player for maybe 10 or 15 years. of course junior clubs don't seem to realize that said player can move willy nilly from junior club to junior club without any compensation. they only really get their knickers in a twist when a player moves to Senior football.

Exactly, or they dont mind when they ship kids off at 15-16 to English clubs never to be seen again. And most of the time they get nothing bar a summer training camp or two from the said English club.

Have you ever seen some of the rejection letters for funding the junior clubs get from their English idols? They cover all the bases, basically two fingers to them in the nicest possible way ..... and then they are delighted because its headed stationary :eek:

Quote:

junior players are amateurs (supposed to be anyway) and so are their clubs. junior clubs are often sceptical/suspicious of the LoI clubs taking all the top players from their clubs and are unable to see that it is better for each player to play at the highest level possible.

But is it the players welfare they are worried about. If they can ship them off to clubs in England with no education to a club that is going into administration and the young lads could be back in two weeks then do they really care about his welfare?

Quote:

i think it is more of a mindset difference between the 2 levels and can only be addressed by dialogue between the clubs - not enforcement from the FAI.

it is in no-ones interests to make it difficult for a player to progress from junior/intermediate to senior football. the introduction of compensation at least gives something to the junior club and is cheap enough to not make it prohibitive for the LoI club to sign players from Junior.

short of creating a forum between the Junior clubs and LoI clubs in a local area I can't see what the FAI can do!!

It definitely needs more attention, at least some sort of charter or frame work that might actually spell out how the system is failing would be a good thing.
15/01/2008, 1:06 PM
A face

Moved this for further debate.
15/01/2008, 2:14 PM
jebus

Not good is the answer in Limerick
15/01/2008, 3:00 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

Not good is the answer in Limerick

Fair enough there is a problem there but what needs to change to improve it?

Are there any realistic measures that could be put in place to help the situation?
16/01/2008, 10:21 AM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

Fair enough there is a problem there but what needs to change to improve it?

Are there any realistic measures that could be put in place to help the situation?

Realistic? No don't think so. Not all Juniorballers are against the senior team I grant you, but there's a decent number who would rather Limerick city didn't have an EL team, and will do everything possible not to help us out.

Honestly can't say I blame them given our track record with money, plus it's not like I give a damn if their clubs live or die either
16/01/2008, 11:46 AM
galwayhoop

Att: A Face

Some good points there earlier.

A lot (most/all????) of junior clubs seem far happier sending a young lad of 15 to England (knowing that he probably has about a 1% chance of making a career over there) than seeing a 19/20 year old going to the LoI (where he probably has about a 50% chance of making the team).

They seem to be happy if the Local eL side struggles - financially or otherwise!! I really can't understand it myself. I mean an awful lot of the players at these clubs support the eL side and would love to play for them but it seems to be at administration / committee level that the daggers are out.

junior clubs try to hold themselves up as the real football people and don't seem to understand that they are about 10 levels below the eL in every way.
16/01/2008, 1:22 PM
Philly

KCFC and Newbridge Town are affiliated and seem to have an excellent working relationship. KCFC also helps fund local clubs with over �100,000 being raised by Junior clubs through a fund raising scheme we run.

However, it seems a lot of talented Kildare based players do not really want the hassle of traveling and opt to stick with LSL/KDFL football.
16/01/2008, 7:34 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Some good points there earlier.

A lot (most/all????) of junior clubs seem far happier sending a young lad of 15 to England (knowing that he probably has about a 1% chance of making a career over there) than seeing a 19/20 year old going to the LoI (where he probably has about a 50% chance of making the team).

That is actually about the size of it, player have a much better chance of been taken seriously these days if they leave later on.

Quote:

They seem to be happy if the Local eL side struggles - financially or otherwise!! I really can't understand it myself. I mean an awful lot of the players at these clubs support the eL side and would love to play for them but it seems to be at administration / committee level that the daggers are out.

Very much so, what a great example to set. Its self interest, and self righteousness. They are not answerable either, the buck will never stop with them. Once the player leaves their club, his welfare is no longer their concern and they can wash their hands of it.

You might say that eircom League clubs could do the same but i'd say that when they leave eL clubs they more than likely have an education, they are not kids anymore, they will be a bit more street wise, life knowledge if you will. Lots of players leave City for scholarships, or study third level while at the club. Same with UCD, Waterford, etc.

I can remember Pat Dolan saying once that some junior club should be up for child abuse such was the 'production line' of youth to England. He referenced the word slave ships at the same time. I thought it was a bit ott at the time, he should have dropped the bit about slave ships.

Quote:

junior clubs try to hold themselves up as the real football people and don't seem to understand that they are about 10 levels below the eL in every way.

Real football people who are the single most destructive element to the football system in this country. They don't subscribe to a traditional system like you see in other countries, a tier system with a natural line of progression, thats why we are light years behind our counterparts in the development of players.

You can see that at international level, where the system is so fragmented and hit a miss for the most part for any player that takes the junior club route to 'the big time' :rolleyes: Players progress to the top level through perseverance and fortune as opposed to moving up through a system where they are supported all the way through.

Small mindedness and and a lack of civic pride. Resolve both those issues and you'd see it improve ten fold.
16/01/2008, 11:15 PM
Boh_So_Good

The answer today is the same as in 1970...all junior clubs are filled with weekend warriors who think they are the top players in Ireland. They have a GAA mindset in that they drink 20 pints of stout at the weekend, chain-smoke and work in semi-states and assume that they are better than LOI players. The meglomania is unreal at times! I was chatting to a relative of mine who played for Ballymun United and he was like "I could be the top striker in the LOI no bother!"

Look at Malahide Utd losing 0-1 to Bohs in the early stages of the cup and their supporters claiming that they were better than any LOI club. Saint Francis thinking they could lash anyone in Europe after they LOST the cup final.
16/01/2008, 11:24 PM
Boh_So_Good

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

I can remember Pat Dolan saying once that some junior club should be up for child abuse such was the 'production line' of youth to England. He referenced the word slave ships at the same time. I thought it was a bit ott at the time, he should have dropped the bit about slave ships.

There is a story of some lad in the mid 90's Bluebell who killed himself after being rejected following a trial with Man U. There was a huge send off party on his street and his oulfella down the boozer boasting about his lad being the next Keano. Poor bloke found himself on a training pitch with like 200 others and a low ranking Man U scout pointing at one or two to remain while he was on the mobile phone. The other 198 sent home and "the next Keano" was one of them. Came back to Dublin the next day only to be ridiculed by the Oirish footbal fans in the area. Ended up hanging himself.

Could be an urban legend, but sounds plausible enough to me. I was even thinking about it today as I was thumbing though a copy of 'Red White and Green' in Easons and looking at a cover photo of that tacky tosser Niall Quinn explaining to the thick paddies how Sunderland is the Dublin of England...

I hate that *******.
17/01/2008, 12:12 AM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

There is a story of some lad in the mid 90's Bluebell who killed himself after being rejected following a trial with Man U. There was a huge send off party on his street and his oulfella down the boozer boasting about his lad being the next Keano. Poor bloke found himself on a training pitch with like 200 others and a low ranking Man U scout pointing at one or two to remain while he was on the mobile phone. The other 198 sent home and "the next Keano" was one of them. Came back to Dublin the next day only to be ridiculed by the Oirish footbal fans in the area. Ended up hanging himself.

There are so many of those stories out there is unreal, and its all taboo, you can't talk about it. You cant bring it up and reason as to what actually happened. Its the more 'out of sight, out of mind' stuff that gets me where they guy is exiled as a result of it. No education, no support, cringeworthy phone calls back home. Say nothing, dont mention it.

You wont hear of any of them in the 'Irish abroad' articles in the Irish Times. They're not worth the ink.

Quote:

Could be an urban legend, but sounds plausible enough to me.

Think of it man, look at the attitude you're deal with. Cant comment on that particular story obviously but i know some of the horror stories i've heard. Wash their hands and say nothing.
17/01/2008, 8:25 AM
drummerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

The answer today is the same as in 1970...all junior clubs are filled with weekend warriors who think they are the top players in Ireland. They have a GAA mindset in that they drink 20 pints of stout at the weekend, chain-smoke and work in semi-states and assume that they are better than LOI players. The meglomania is unreal at times! I was chatting to a relative of mine who played for Ballymun United and he was like "I could be the top striker in the LOI no bother!"

Look at Malahide Utd losing 0-1 to Bohs in the early stages of the cup and their supporters claiming that they were better than any LOI club. Saint Francis thinking they could lash anyone in Europe after they LOST the cup final.

Get your head out of the sand. I know of many LSL clubs who train 3 times a week, and play at the weekend. Quite a number of these players look after themselves before matches. Football at most levels has improved in this country. In all these junior clubs that you are lambasting, there are dedicated people putting their time and effort in. Believe me its a lot harder than just turning up to watch your team play on a Friday night. Most of these lads pay to play unlike their much vaunted EL players
17/01/2008, 11:42 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy

Get your head out of the sand. I know of many LSL clubs who train 3 times a week, and play at the weekend. Quite a number of these players look after themselves before matches. Football at most levels has improved in this country. In all these junior clubs that you are lambasting, there are dedicated people putting their time and effort in. Believe me its a lot harder than just turning up to watch your team play on a Friday night. Most of these lads pay to play unlike their much vaunted EL players

Damn it anyway, dont have time to respond to this, ffs.
18/01/2008, 12:53 AM
Tis-smeee

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

didn't they introdue the payment of �1,500 compensation to the junior club when a player signs with a LoI club

For example Kilkenny, most of alot of their players come from junior league, if they signed ten players would it cost 15000?
18/01/2008, 1:40 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tis-smeee

For example Kilkenny, most of alot of their players come from junior league, if they signed ten players would it cost 15000?

bad example considering....

actually it has changed since i first heard of it. apparantely it works out at �500 per year. so for example if a lad joined a club when he was 12 and stayed with them until he was 18 (6 years) when he joined a LoI club then the LoI club would pay compensation of �3,000 to the lads club.

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