Burglars killed by next-door neighbour.

Self-defense or vigilanteeism?

Man shoots burglars as the leave neighbour's house - From CBS News

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"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

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Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

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I just saw a report on this on CNN. What the CBS report doesn't show is that on 7 different occasions Mr Horn said "I'm gonna kill them" while he was told not to kill them on 9 occasions by the dispatch officer (On the CNN report, the "Boom! You're dead" comment was written as "Move n' you're dead", which is a significant difference).

Bear in mind a new law was passed on Sept 1, termed the "Castle doctrine", which grants homeowners greater powers of defense.
However, this doesn't quite fall into that category-

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The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth.

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A poll mentioned on that link has 2:1 support for Mr. Horn, and the CNN report had a poll which showed 84% supported him (by supported they meant he should not be charged).

Here's the audio and video report. As far as I'm concerned, it's murder. If he gets away with this, it's going to set a bad precedent. What really gets me is that he walked outside to confront them, holding a loaded shotgun, with the expressly stated intention of killing them, and then he had the gall to claim that he had no choice!

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Originally Posted by strangeirish

Here's the audio and video report. As far as I'm concerned, it's murder. If he gets away with this, it's going to set a bad precedent. What really gets me is that he walked outside to confront them, holding a loaded shotgun, with the expressly stated intention of killing them, and then he had the gall to claim that he had no choice!

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yeah, on the audio you can hear him say something along the lines of "If I go out there, then I'll have no choice". He engineered a situation where he thought self defence laws would apply. He may be wrong though.

Strangeirish, is the case a big deal in the USA?

I would go with murder too but I don't know the finer details of that law. Would not be surprised if he was acquitted under Texas law though.

The thief was leaving his neighbours house so no threat to him or anyone else.

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigade

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Originally Posted by jebus

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigade

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He'll go down.

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Originally Posted by jebus

It's murder, but he'll get off because of the right wing brigade

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God Bless America

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

He'll go down.

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He won't, there will be campaigns to make sure he doesn't. As Lionel said

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Strangeirish, is the case a big deal in the USA?

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It's not getting as much coverage as I thought it would. Of course Fox News[sic] is all over it with their right wing 'legal experts'. The mainstream media seems to be letting it fly under the radar for some reason.

Sorry Joe, it's murder/vigilanteeism for me too. Interesting case though. More so for the degree of outpouring of support for Mr. Horn than anything else. I think it shows how defensively minded and just plain scared Americans are that they will nonchalantly defend someone with little or no involvement (he said he didn't really know his neighbours) killing a burglar. Fantastic comments by one so-called Christian on that link; They were already on a path to self-destruct. Good riddance. If more people took the path of deadly force I firmly believe there would be less crime. (they actually said they were a Christian! :rolleyes:)

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Originally Posted by pete

I would go with murder too but I don't know the finer details of that law.

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Basically, you must have intended to cause death or serious injury - which he did by saying he had a shotgun and wouldn't get let them get away. And then you must actually do it too - which he did.

After that there are defences available to mitigate/explain the harm caused. None of which would appear to apply here. He knew exactly what he was doing, what he did was in no way commensurate to what the burglars were doing, and he denied the prolonged exhortations of the 911 fella. A defence of duress (that he just had to do it) may be tried. But I'd classify what he did as self-created duress - he voluntarily exposed himself to the situation, so the breastplate of righteousness should be whisked off in my opinion.

Simple case of murder. He wanted to do it.

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too. what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

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Originally Posted by anto1208

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too. what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

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lovely

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Originally Posted by anto1208

if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too.

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But what happens if I look out my window just as he pulls the trigger? Presumably I should shoot him in turn yeah? But just then you pull up to see my target fall so you then shoot me. Then either the police come to arrest you or some other 'Samaritan' comes along to shoot you. Either way, you ultimately end up getting ****ed

Where would we stop Anto? I saw a young fella kick a dog the other day, am I entitled to kick him in turn? You throw an ice-cream wrapper into my garden, so I pelt you with a dozen rotten eggs? (I would too, so don't you dare)

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Originally Posted by anto1208

I dont see the fuss he shot a burgular so what ? if someone found a guy robbing from my house id like to think he would shoot him too.

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What if a neighbour of yours shot someone leaving your house with your property, and it turned out they were a Removal man ? Or a relative who'd come over to get some stuff ? Still ok to shoot them ? This man didn't seem to know his neighbours very well, after all. Who decides who is a burglar - the guy who just wants an excuse to shoot someone ? What if the 'suspect' is black and the guy with the gun a rascist (as very many are in America). Is it ok for him to shoot the black guy and get away with it, cuz he assumed a black guy must be a burglar...?

I've had to break into my own house recently when I got locked out. Should someone walking by have shot me as a suspected burglar ?

There wass a classic case about 7 years ago in Florida or Texas where an English man living in the US broke down in his car at night. He knocked on the door of a house nearby looking for help, the home-owner assumed he was a burglar or someone with ill-intent, and shot him dead through the door.

You see Anto - the above are the type of idiotic consequences that happen from idiotic suggestions like yours. Thank God we don't have easy access to guns in Ireland with trigger-happy macho cowboys like you around......:o

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Originally Posted by anto1208

what should he do just let him get away with it and keep on robbing houses he wouldnt have been caught if he didnt confront him. When he confronted him his life was in danger as he could nt know what he would be carrying.

what should he do hide in the house like a coward and let this scumbag continue robbing , blast him away and good ridence :cool:

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I can't believe you have the stupidity to ask "what should he do". How's about calling the police ? :confused: If he wanted to be of extra help he could've taken a good look at the person to provide a detailed description, covertly taken a photo/video footage of them, noted care registration plates etc etc etc. If he was able to have a big debate about shooting them, and then go off and do it, he certainly had the time to do all of that. Or call me old fashioned - but he could just have confronted the guy with his shotgun without murdering him; only using the weapon if he absolutely had to.

What about if your neighbours house was on fire ? Would you jump ion with a hose, or do like the ad says : "Get out, stay out, get the Fire Brigade out". I guess spraying water isn't as much fun as bullets though, eh....

This is a case of murder - plain and simple. There will be right-wing cam,paigns etc, but I struggle to see how any vaguely sane judge can decide anythign other than the fact that this guy went out with the express intetnion of killing another man, regardless of the danger he may or may not have faced. Tyhat's why it's murder.

Guy should have called the police. Based on TV expertise he would have had 5 squad cars there in less than 5 minutes assuming he lived in leafy suburb.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Who decides who is a burglar - the guy who just wants an excuse to shoot someone ? What if the 'suspect' is black and the guy with the gun a rascist (as very many are in America). Is it ok for him to shoot the black guy and get away with it, cuz he assumed a black guy must be a burglar...?

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You don't know how close you are to the truth there,dcfcsteve. The burglars were Hispanic. Knowing the Texas mentality, I don't believe this guy would have shot them if they were white. That may sound juvenile and over simplistic, but in Texas, if you ain't white, you ain't right. Sad, but true I'm afraid.

They are just all what if stories its as silly as me saying what if this burgular went to the next house and stabbed an old woman would you be happy with that knowing it could have been stopped.

Taking a discription etc would do no good , look at the story last week of a house getting robbed the owners disturbed them so the robbers came back later that night and shot the place up. the family had to move out after 24 years living there. they can call the cops give them discriptions whats going to happen F all thats what.

If he wasnt robbing houses he wouldnt be dead. its liek that frog ward case a while back , dont rob houses you won't get shot.

Where the robbers wearing masks and breaking in a window when he saw them i dont know many delivery men that use that method.

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Originally Posted by pete

Guy should have called the police. Based on TV expertise he would have had 5 squad cars there in less than 5 minutes assuming he lived in leafy suburb.

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He did call the police. At least I assume he did. I suppose the 911 call mention in the first post in this thread could have been for mountain rescue.

Here's a video from one of the local Fox channels. Sickening,
if you ask me.