The Kilcoynes - failed dreamers or villains?

I bravely broach the emotive issues of the Kilcoynes following RTE's bank holiday programme "20 Moments that shook Irish sport"

The issues surrounding the sale of Miltown were a little before my time. I was fortunate to attend one game at Glenmalure when I was very young though.

RTE presented Kilcoyne as some style of hard luck hero in this portrayal of events. Indeed my wife said she felt sorry for the guy. On the contrary among LOI fans he is only troubled by John Delaney on the most hated suit wearer list.

In the FAI ticketing fiasco all they were trying to do was get more Irish fans to the games - albeit in a cackhanded way.

In the Miltown saga it seemed they aimed their sights too high, and they asked the perfectly reasonable question "Where were all these dyed in the wool Rovers fans when the matches were being played? The fans could have saved Miltown by actually going to the games"

The above statements are not necessarily my own opinion, but I'd like to see them discussed by the posters here for my further enlightenment, try not to get the thread closed lads :)

Could I ask, where did Milltown come in the list last night? I saw ~5-14th and it wasn't mentioned.

I'd say you just missed it so - must have been around the mid teens.

Agree - I was surprised at how low the gates were at Milltown - BUT I do not know the full story and this should not be an endorsement of anybody.

Almost sure it was 15th in the list. Some fantastic footae from the 50s and 60s, easily 25,000 plus packed in watching eL games...

I don't know the full story, but from what i got out of the few minutes they were talking about it - They invested heavily in the club and it didn't work out. They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really

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Originally Posted by BrayUnknowns

Almost sure it was 15th in the list. Some fantastic footae from the 50s and 60s, easily 25,000 plus packed in watching eL games...

I don't know the full story, but from what i got out of the few minutes they were talking about it - They invested heavily in the club and it didn't work out. They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really

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The attendance figures quoted were way off.
This programme & the way Lucifer Kilkoye was portrayed is actually a subject of debate on our own forum.

AFAIC I hope he & the rest of them die a slow painful death for what they did.

Koh

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Originally Posted by BrayUnknowns

They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really

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That's because most of those that protested, were the ones who went every week - and still do.

Many others who didn't go, couldn't because they simply couldn't afford to pay the £4 demanded every fortnight. Those who were on the dole, got less than £30-40 a week. There was no Celtic Tiger in those days.

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Originally Posted by DvB

The attendance figures quoted were way off.
This programme & the way Lucifer Kilkoye was portrayed is actually a subject of debate on our own forum.

AFAIC I hope he & the rest of them die a slow painful death for what they did.

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How do Rovers fans feel about the four-in-a-row? I know they still sing about it. How much of the money to build that team came from the Kilcoynes?

(Not excusing the land grab and ground selling, by the way, just curious. Also think it was poor form for Cork City and the FAI to give Kilcoyne an important role afterwards).

How much came from the fans, and sponsors?

LK and co are only remembered for 1 thing. The fact that we ran rings round the rest of the league at the time, is pure coincidence.

The programme was very pro-Kilcoynes and it didn't help that Dunphy also threw his weight behind them.

There's probably a bit of truth that the crowds weren't great in the latter Milltown days, but his attempt to blame the boycott on finally selling the club (as opposed to the ground) was ridiculous.

It was before my time & apparent from sadness the thing that struck me most was:

* Small attend at game & high attendance at protests
* Strong sense of deja vu - clubs over spending with no alternative plan when eventually go bust
* Some people will protest but never attend games - could see this in recent years when Bohs announced selling Dalymount.

If Rovers had held on for a bit longer even if they had to sell might have accrued some real money when property boom started.

How much was it sold for in the end? was it more than the debts?

I was at a number of games in Milltown in the late 70's and right up to 1987. I remember large crowds for quite a few of these games. I can't remmeber anything close to 400.

The programme failed to mention that the Kilcoynes bought the ground from the Jesuits for £50,000 shortly before selling it on for £1,000,000. Rovers also made substantial money from transfers at the time. O'Brien, Buckley and Campbell among others.

I found the KRAM guy a little sad really as he kept justifying that he'd done all he can. Surely nobody is blaming those guys. They did do their best but he could have put some of the case instead. Maybe he did and he was edited out.

Were the game shown from the 60's not played at Dalymount btw? It didn't look like Milltown.

As for the Merriongate fiasco. Well I played my own small part as Louis was arrested outside Brazil v Argentina while selling me 2 tickets for the game at below face value. While Joe Delaney definitely dealt with some dodgy people I think his heart was in the right place here and many people got to see games in 1990 and 1994 that otherwise wouldn't.

The mafia ran the official ticketing and the touts for the 1990 World Cup. Louis K was arrested and held for selling tickets below face value while dozens of touts operated openly under the noses of the cops.

In 1994 the tickets were mainly handed over the travel agents by FIFA who charged extortionate fees.

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Originally Posted by pete

It was before my time & apparent from sadness the thing that struck me most was:

* Small attend at game & high attendance at protests
* Strong sense of deja vu - clubs over spending with no alternative plan when eventually go bust
* Some people will protest but never attend games - could see this in recent years when Bohs announced selling Dalymount.

If Rovers had held on for a bit longer even if they had to sell might have accrued some real money when property boom started.

How much was it sold for in the end? was it more than the debts?

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In fairness Pete your questions indicate that you have bitten the RTE version of events.

Whitewash job on the Kilcoynes. They tried to make an all professional set up which was a huge gamble. I was one of those who attended the games then. The gates weren't great but was it right for the Kilcoynes to risk the club and its ground in the hope that they'd make money by bringing back the crowds? There was no plan B if it didn't work except to sell my beloved Milltown to property developers. But what really also gets me is that Kilcoyne became head of the FAI after that which is no surprise when you hear Bernard O'Byrne speaking in his defence.

When Rovers left Milltown I didn't go to Tolka even though I had been a regular attender for 20+ years :o Rovers and Milltown to me were synonymous.

The shots from the 1960s and 70s of the big crowds were mostly at Dalymount.

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Originally Posted by gspain

While Joe Delaney definitely dealt with some dodgy people I think his heart was in the right place here and many people got to see games in 1990 and 1994 that otherwise wouldn't.

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Here here Gary, couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

In fairness Pete your questions indicate that you have bitten the RTE version of events.

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Like 90% of the viewers who don't know anything else...

Even if the 400 figure for attendances was a bit off I think the point about protesters is still valid. A certain Labour politician telling us Dalymount must stay when probably never been near the ground. You could see also on the Saipan thing last night where they showed a protester who looked like she never near a football ground in her life.

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Originally Posted by el punter

In the Miltown saga it seemed they aimed their sights too high, and they asked the perfectly reasonable question "Where were all these dyed in the wool Rovers fans when the matches were being played? The fans could have saved Miltown by actually going to the games"

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The figures mentioned are a blatant LIE.

I was there a lot during the Kilcoyne era. The biggest crowd I experienced was around 9,000 (v. Sligo). Crowds of 4,000 - 5,000 weren't weekly, but they were regular enough. 7,000 was occasional.

Letting Kilcoyne spout lies actually plays right into the hands of GAA people who are constantly claiming that "Rovers only have a few hundred fans" as an excuse to move in on Tallaght Stadium.

FUnnily enough they used never publish the attendances. Just the gate receipts and anything over £1000 was a biggie but I suspect much of the money wasn't owned up to.

I reckon there were about close enough to about a thousand people going to the games then. Certainly not 4 or 5 thousand. That would have filled Milltown. But there would have been many thousands of floating supporters and surely they were entitled to protest. The ground was an amenity. If a national park only has a few hundred visitors a week, should it be sold off for apartments? No!!

Louis couldn't tell the time, never mind the truth. The numbers protesting were less than our average gates, and the Kilcoynes only started getting crowds of 400 after they'd abandoned Milltown and Tolka was boycotted by most regulars.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I reckon there were about close enough to about a thousand people going to the games then. Certainly not 4 or 5 thousand. That would have filled Milltown

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The record crowd at Milltown was 28,000 in 1968 v. Waterford.

Regarding my figures in the post above - whatever about crowds towards the end, Kilcoyne has drastically revised the figures downwards FOR HIS ENTIRE TIME THERE.

He says that the crowds I experienced there in the late sevenites and early eighties didn't happen.

He's a liar - pure and simple.