Domestic soccer and our International team

The Indo today nicely printed an-email I sent them re: our international performances and the lack of support for the LOI.

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Go Monday September 17 2007

I would like to take issue with the most recent outburst of disillusionment from Ireland's soccer faithful.

Nobody in their right mind is going to claim that we are where we want to be; but we are were we deserve to be.

The Irish public demand that our international team and management be up there with the big boys of the international game. We should have beaten the Czechs, I'm told. We have no divine right to do so, however. And no logical reason to think we should be able to.

If one looks at the nations that have the best soccer teams, you see one connection between them. Any nation that does well in international football has a well-supported national league.

This is indisputable.

Extra government funding and higher attendances allow clubs to invest in better youth development structures and to create soccer academies.

The only way Ireland can ever be as good as the likes of Germany and the Czech Republic is by investing in the domestic side of things. Unfortunately, that means Irish people supporting their local sides instead of splashing their cash on Premiership teams and Celtic.

If Irish people really want this nation to be represented well on an international stage, then they must afford their patronage to their local sides.

Only when the Irish soccer fan's time and money is going to the likes of Tolka Park or Turner's Cross can we really claim any right to be beating nations who actually support soccer in their own country.

Mark Phillips,
Newbridge,
Co Kildare


I'm just wondering what your opinions are. Is it not true that Irish soccer cannot compete well on an international stage if people don't support the League here? Look at all the sides that are in our group. Germany, Czach Republic and Slovakia will probably finish above us. All three have far better supported domestic leagues and thus don't rely on foreign clubs to develop their players and play them. The nations going to finish below us are the ones with worst supported and ranked leagues; Cyprus, San Marino and Wales. There is a direct coralation here, and one that alot of barstoolers in Ireland would rather ignore. If one puts how well supported the leagues of the various clubs in our group are, you will see that the goup will probably finish with the best leagues on top, and the worst at the bottom. It's easy to say that it's the Leagues fault, but the foundation is there for us to have a strong domestic league, and if people throw their weight behind it, it will be one to be proud of. If things keep going the way they are, then don't expect us to be relying on bad English players claiming Irish nationalisty to see us through for the forseeable future.

Irish soccer needs the investment of the people to be able to compete at any level.

Would love to agree but can't. Look at Slovakia, the Czechs and Germany. They all have bigger poplulations than San Marino, Cyprus and Wales. That's the key.

I don't think the "we must develop our own players" is neccessary for a successful international team. I'd like it to happen but look at Brazil and Argentina. How many of their international players play with, and were developed by, clubs in their own country.

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Originally Posted by barney

Would love to agree but can't. Look at Slovakia, the Czechs and Germany. They all have bigger poplulations than San Marino, Cyprus and Wales. That's the key.

I don't think the "we must develop our own players" is neccessary for a successful international team. I'd like it to happen but look at Brazil and Argentina. How many of their international players play with, and were developed by, clubs in their own country.

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Barney,

Basically all the Brazilian/Argentina players etc were developed domestically. There are odd exceptions such as Messi, but they are a rarity.

They may no longer play there, but it was their formative performances in the domestic competitions that brings them to the attention of European sides.

Investing in your domestic league would only bring you so far. I'm afraid a country of the ROI's size doesn't have the population to sustain a top 10 side in the long term, so the best you can hope for is sporadic periods of success. Chucking money at clubs which already overspend is not going to magic up top quality players.

I also could not agree more with barney on Brazil and Argentina. Their leagues are dreadfully supported, yet they have unquestionably had long-term periods of success, down to a combination of promoting and maintaining football's status as a #1 sport in those countries, coaching their youth players in a way that will enable them to compete technically, and realising the potential of exporting players to other countries.

If you want an example closer to home, look no further than the Czech team that you just played, and their past success which has been sustained. The majority of their major players play outside of their country and their league commands less support than League One on average, and only just higher than League Two.

And what were to happen if we finished third in this group. It's not entirely unfeasible, and if we did it'd blow your whole theory away. We have a league that averages under 300, yet that hasn't stopped us from producing good players in the past and we will continue to produce good players in the future.

Nice letter Mark, but I think you're remiss in accepting the skewed priorities of RepublicOfIreland FC fanboys. A strong domestic game is its own reward. It would be reflected in the national team's performances, but that's very much a by-product. Personally I don't know how anyone can derive pride/pleasure from the performances of eleven British-based players with no real footballing connection to Ireland. RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football. How people feel any affinity with it is beyond me.

Fair play to the notoriously anti EL paper for printing it.

Sheridan how did you have any affinity for the parasitic entity that was CHF? Horses for courses my man.

Cymro the point is the Czech national side always has about half their players playing in their domestic league and the other half started their careers at home.


KOH

The English system is failing to produce quality English players, despite the far greater numbers going into it, yet we expect it to also produce quality Irish players. We need to invest in developing our own players, and that must mean through a domestic football structure (and that includes a total change in role of the so called nursery clubs). The money simply isn't there because Irish people fail to support their own league. Yes Sheridan, a strong domestic league should be it's own reward, but the people that hop on planes and ferries have to appreciate the knock on effect of their actions. We must stand on our own two feet footballing wise - that means Irish football fans supporting Irish football.

A strong domestic set up should complement, not replace the British league clubs. To an extent it's already happening, Doyle, Long, Ward, Forde, Hoolihan, Murphy and a few others. Very long way to go though.

Giles' quote from the late 70s in the eircom league thead rings true today.

If a few clubs could qualify for UEFA Cup proper at the same time then it'd be interesting to see the local reaction. Getting from here to there is the hard part.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football.

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Yes, it's a parasite but it does reflect at least one part of Irish football. It reflects the schools set up and the underage junior set up. It just doesn't represent senior domestic football.

Just look at the U17 team that played last weekend. 9 of the XI play in Britain, the other 2 play for junior clubs, not LOI clubs. Of the 9 UK starters all would have been spotted playing in Ireland. As would most of the senior international XI at some stage.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Just look at the U17 team that played last weekend. 9 of the XI play in Britain, the other 2 play for junior clubs, not LOI clubs. Of the 9 starters all would have been spotted playing in Ireland. As would most of the senior international XI at some stage.

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Yeah, but how many will go on to represent Ireland at full international level, and of those how many successfully? You could say the same about Kerr's youth teams, but most of those ended up back in the League of Ireland after failing to be brought on by the English clubs. The "Nursery Clubs" are part of the problem - is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

I wouldnt say the Argentine and Brazilian leagues are dreadfully supported. I can't speak too much about the Brazilian league as I've only ever seen it on TV, but the Argentine league is very well supported. I've seen a few matches there in stadiums and they've usually been fairly full. The fans are passionate and generate a lot of noise.

In my opinion the Argentine league is easily amongst the top 10 in the world in terms of level (skill) of play. Even though a lot of players leave to got o Europe, there is always another batch waiting to join. I would also argue that the really big teams in Argentina and Brazil (like Boca Juniors, Grêmio, River Plate, Racing Club, Palmerias, Flamengo etc) would be more than a match for the big-time-charlies of the European game (the likes of Man Utd, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan etc)...

In fact I would disagree with the precis of the initial email. I don't think a well supported home league is vital to sucess in international football. I think that was more true in the past than it is now when EU leagues can field players from anywhere within the EU. If you take the Belgian league, it has reasonably strong teams with good european pedigree, but the Belgian national team is not very strong. Similarly the Russian league is very well supported, has lots of cash to spend on players (look at Dinamo, Zenit and CSKA Moscow's recent signings) and has been doing ok in terms of European Competition. Yet only very recently has the Russian national team looked like a serious force to be reckoned with.

On the other hand compare this to the situation in the former Yugoslavia. The old Yugoslav league used to be one of the strongest in Europe. In their hayday teams like Hadjuk Split, Crvena Zvezda, Veles Mostar and Partizan used to be able to compete against many European sides. Since the breakup the leagues have got weaker and weaker. Matches hardly ever sell out (with the exceptions of the massive derbies (eg Hadjuk v Dinamo Zg, Belgrade Derby, Mostar Derby). Yet the Croatian national team is consistently strong and the Serbian one has been getting stronger of late. Both these countries would destroy us over 90 mins home or away. I think their key strength lies in the following point. Most players in the former Yugoslavia are sold abroad from medium level domestic clubs to medium level EU clubs before they are "world class". Players like Pranjic, Mrdja and Lazovic have joined small clubs in Holland, Zigic and Bosko Jankovic moved to mediocre clubs in Spain.

I think having lots of players playing in clubs all across Europe is what sets Serbia and Croatia apart from us in terms of National team development. That and they have good managers with a tactical understanding of the game and competent Football Associations.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Yeah, but how many will go on to represent Ireland at full international level, and of those how many successfully? You could say the same about Kerr's youth teams, but most of those ended up back in the League of Ireland after failing to be brought on by the English clubs. The "Nursery Clubs" are part of the problem - is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

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Not really sure, but Given, Dunne, McShane, Reid, Keane, Doyle, Long, Keogh and others from last week would all have had at least some grounding in Ireland. I'm just saying that you can't argue a complete disassociation from domestic football. Preferably some of these guys would stay at home for longer but that's a slightly different argument.

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Originally Posted by Macy

is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

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Nail on head, it's all about trophies and not player development.

Some of these 'successful' nursery clubs discard players each year as they entice new 'better' ones in.

I know of one who won a national competition last season brought in new players and dropped those who helped them achieve the success. None of the imports were local and by that I mean within a 10 mile radius of this so called local club

We do have some good nursery clubs, but they're not the ones that spring to mind or appear in brackets after a player's name in underage squads. Those clubs are basically halfway houses to the British game or eL. For the most part the players at those "famous nursery clubs" have reached a stage in their development beyond which they won't progress until they graduate to senior football and derive very little of value from their stay.

There are only three Czech-based players in the czech squad (admittedly I'm going on wikipedia's information, but still) and none of them are major players.

This is a response to NY Hoop, by the way.

Also, edmundo, I meant that the Brazilian/Argentine leagues are dreadfully supported relative to the standing of their international teams in world football. In Argentina apart from Boca and River Plate very few clubs break 10,000 on a regular basis. Brazil is even worse with an average attendance some 4,000 lower than the SPL.

Went to a Czech league game at the weekend. Slavia Praha v Banik Ostrava. First versus second; two teams with decent recent records. 6,400 there - Slavia's highest crowd of the season, each paying in 50Kc, or about E2. I was wondering how it is that clubs in that league can so comfortably defeat eL sides (Liberec v Rovers and Sparta v Cork spring to mind), and even in Slavia's case qualify for thr CL group stages.

Granted, qualifying for the groups is part of the answer, but I think the half time game was more important. Kids of about ten playing a strict eight-a-side game - even though both had nine players - on a good big pitch and with a strict formation. If a player made a tackle, he played it forward and went back into position. No swarm formations like you see at half time games here (and I've played in the fanzine half-time games, so I'm including my team mates in that criticism. I play in goals, so am exempt. :) ). Even from a ten minute look, it seemed that style must surely benefit the kids more.

fair play Philly - i agree with the general thrust of your email. In fact i posted something very similar on the Czech match thread directly after the game. Here are a few simple ideas that could be implemented by the government that would make an impression on the domestic game in a matter of 5 years.

1) Government grants issued to clubs who submit detailed plans and costings on improvements to facilities. Grants are only used to improve facilities and this is monitored by some form of FAI employed club auditor.

2) Treat team sponsorship almost like charitable donations and issue big tax breaks on such investment. That way the private sector has a huge incentive to actually start investing larger sums in domestic football at little actual cost. This money can be used then at the clubs discretion - wages, signings, marketing etc

3) Establish an Ajax style national academy that identifies and attracts the top players at the youngest age and develops their basic skills and techniques. At age 16/17/18 a class graduates and the players are assigned to domestic club teams (maybe like the drafts in the NFL). If nothing else it makes the situation more glamorous and could quite easily be developed enough to grab the public attention.

These are just 3 basic steps that would improve the quality of domestic football in almost every regard. When this leads to greater success in europe and so on the crowds will come.

Furthermore we are pledging to keep our talent on these shores during the most critical phase of their footballing and just general physical and mental development.

The best players will still move abroad but, importantly, they will do so for decent fees, something that is still not really happening. The academy will have developed these kids into something more than just an imitation of engish footballers and the Reals, Barcas and Milans of this world could soon start sniffing around.

It really is a win-win situation for all concerned. Domestic football wins, the FAI wins and the international team wins.

Cymro, you are missing the point of what is being said - investment comes first, improvements begin and crowds will naturally follow. Im surprised that a welsh man cannot see the benefit of this considering the anomaly that is Welsh club football.

If the FAI and government continues to just put money into what they term "grass roots" football they are just grooming these lads to be picked up at a ridiculously young age by a british club that just doesnt care about either irish football or the player himself.

Was it Blatter that said at that awards ceremony a few years back that we will never have great success until we stop sending our kids abroad at 14/15/16? How right he was.

Historically people may say that english football has been good to us, and it has undoubtedly but due to the nature of football today this has come to its natural end. There are 2 main reasons for this.

1) a great deal of our success was achieved on the back of 2nd generation irishmen. Well emigration has declined and we can no longer rely on this "recruitment" to the same extent we did.

2) the great influx of foreigners into english football means that there is little opportunity for even the best young irish players to break into the first team of the big clubs. This will not change. As a result, players lose interest or drop down the leagues and return home to ireland where they may or may not play football. The players that make the breakthrough usually do so for low end Premiership teams or Championship sides. This means that our players are not testing themselves against the CL or UEFA teams on a weekly basis. In turn this affects the international side as the tactics required to compete with the best international sides must be learnt during match week. The focus for a manager during match week should be primarily motivation, team-building and set pieces.

I dont hate the Premiership and im not an eL martyr. I just think the time has come for the FAI to start using common sense and seeing that just a few changes could make a huge difference in the coming years. Even more importantly, we can control our own destiny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philly

If one looks at the nations that have the best soccer teams, you see one connection between them. Any nation that does well in international football has a well-supported national league.

This is indisputable.

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Indisputable???

What about err...England ....Spain.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cymro

Also, edmundo, I meant that the Brazilian/Argentine leagues are dreadfully supported relative to the standing of their international teams in world football. In Argentina apart from Boca and River Plate very few clubs break 10,000 on a regular basis. Brazil is even worse with an average attendance some 4,000 lower than the SPL.

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Like I say im not too sure about Brazil, but I'm very suprised by that on Argentina.

Here is a pic I took of San Lorenzo v Arsenal di Sarandi last June.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5958/dscf0035sd3.jpg

As you can see it was a full house, and this was taken 2 hours before kick-off during the youth team warm up game.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Nice letter Mark, but I think you're remiss in accepting the skewed priorities of RepublicOfIreland FC fanboys. A strong domestic game is its own reward. It would be reflected in the national team's performances, but that's very much a by-product. Personally I don't know how anyone can derive pride/pleasure from the performances of eleven British-based players with no real footballing connection to Ireland. RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football. How people feel any affinity with it is beyond me.

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Finally, we find common ground:eek:. Spot on, Sheridan.