Printable View
Great bloke. Sad about his death. I met him a couple of times during the seventies, and found him a remarkable, intelligent man. Also written a couple of excellent books in the seventies. May he rest in peace!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...rs/6234726.stm
R I P:(
Sad news alright and always rose above the sectarianism. Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career.
KOH
Not entitely true NY ...commonly held belief. But it doesn't sit well with the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
R.I.P. and condolences to the doogs family
Is that so? From the man himself:
14/02/2004
Emmet Malone talks to some of those involved in the game against the World champions in 1973
These days it may take about half a million euro or a very good relationship with the boys at Nike to get Brazil to pay a visit but in 1972, it seems, the patience to hang around Joao Havelange's office with an appetite for a spot of politicking could be enough to land the World Champions on your doorstep.
In June that year Louis Kilcoyne proved the point. In town with a team from the Republic of Ireland for a trip involving four matches he had organised, the Irishman camped out for half a day in the office of the Brazilian with the aim of getting a meeting. By close of business he'd got it.
Kilcoyne knew the Brazilians, who would go to the World Cup finals in West Germany in 1974 as champions, were coming to Europe in the summer of 1973 to test themselves in a series of friendlies. He proposed a match for charity and his offer reportedly included the FAI vote in the election for FIFA when Stanley Rous departed. It doesn't seem to have taken long for the pair to strike a deal.
The squad Brazilian coach Mario Zagala brought to Dublin for the game 13 months later was, for the time, as impressive as the one named by Carlos Alberto Parreira for next Wednesday's game.
Pele had retired in the wake of the team's 4-1 triumph over Italy in Mexico City and there were a couple of injuries but the likes of Rivelino, Jairzinho and Wilson Piazza, and a couple of the team's emerging stars, Paulo Cesar and Marco Antonio, were amongst the eventual starting line up.
Kilcoyne had promised they would face a team drawn from the whole of the island and had delegated the task of assembling it to his brother-in-law, John Giles, who enlisted the help of Northern Ireland skipper Derek Dougan.
Though the match was at the start of July and a number of the players had to train through their holidays to maintain match fitness (Giles had followed a tough season at Leeds with a couple of weeks in Courtown, where he ran on the beach each day to stay in shape) neither man experienced difficulty coming up with his share of the required numbers.
"I was in a good position to get people at the time because I was chairman of the PFA," recalls Dougan, "but the reality is that everybody wanted to be involved because of the opposition.
"I'd worked for ITV through the whole of the 1970 World Cup finals and this was definitely the best side I'd ever seen. I mean people talk about Hungary with Puskas but the reality is that they weren't even in the same league. So of course the players were interested to take part and for the supporters it was this great Brazilian side against a team drawn from the whole of Ireland, which hadn't happened in maybe 20 years. So it was a spectacle, like Frank Sinatra, Elvis or Barbara Streisand coming to town. It was something you desperately wanted to see."
For the Brazilians, the game marked the end of a nine-match European tour on which, up until then, they had won five, drawn once and lost twice.
Victory in Dublin would bring a $500 win bonus (they got nothing for a draw or defeat, while the Irish were on a match fee of "around £100") but a simmering feud with the travelling press over allegations that the players had "lived in cabarets" during the preceding weeks also provided motivation.
Whatever the mood amongst the visitors, Bryan Hamilton admits to having been a little awed by them. "It was like taking on the Harlem Globetrotters," he says. "Just a fantastic thing to be involved with as a player and at the end I was thrilled to come away from the game with Rivelino's shirt."
Mick Martin, then recently signed by Manchester United, shared the enthusiasm of the Northerners even if the political dimension of the occasion meant little to him. "I was a young boy, probably the youngest in the team and, to be honest, while I knew it was going to be a mixed team I don't think the significance of that was excessively important to me really," he says.
An attempt to stage a reunion for the Irish team last year didn't quite come off but a few will probably be back in Lansdowne Road next Wednesday and Martin, who will be in Dublin for the wedding on Monday of his daughter Siobhán, is hoping to get to the match.
"It would be great to see it because the original game was one of the highlights of my career. It was a huge occasion, we were playing the World Champions, although from a young boy's perspective the fact that it was an Ireland team was mainly important because you were in it. I mean it was seen as a strong selection and so it was sort of flattering to be asked to be a part of it."
The IFA reacted coolly to the idea, with the association's president, Harry Cavan, making attempts to prevent it being played. Ultimately, he did succeed in having its international nature toned down and it ended up being billed as a game between the World Champions and a Shamrock Rovers XI. The association had little choice in letting other players involve themselves in the game but Dougan claims its disapproval of his role in helping to organise things cost him what remained of his international career.
"After it, I probably had a couple of my best years at Wolves but I never played for Northern Ireland again. I finished up with 43 appearances, seven short of my second gold watch. After 15 years I had no complaints but," he laughs, "you lot down south owe me a watch."
The politics of the IFA, he adds, always meant the organisation would fiercely oppose any attempt to build on an occasion. Others, including the team's manager, Liam Tuohy, feel opposition would have come from officials at both associations who feared the implications of a merger.
"Well, you've got two chairmen, and one of them is going to lose his job for a start, so it always would have been difficult but I don't think there's any doubt that the players would have been in favour of it."
Tuohy, like his players, takes some pride from the performance at Lansdowne Road, where the team may have lost in front of 34,000 supporters but emerged from the 4-3 defeat with credit.
He remembers, he says, little enough about July 3rd, the day of the game itself, only that the squad, which stayed at the Montrose Hotel, had "a bit of a loosener", up at UCD early on. Inside the ground some care was taken to avoid further antagonising the IFA and so only the Brazilian flag was flown and its anthem played. Strangely, though, the crowd were still treated to A Nation Once Again by the St Patrick's Brass and Reed Band towards the end of the pre-match build-up.
"The game itself was great," recalls Tuohy. "They played their usual dazzling brand of football. There was more to them than that. They had great balance in the side and all worked very hard - but we played very well against them."
After an hour the score was 4-1 with Paulo Cesar, Martin, Jairzinho, Paulo Cesar again and finally Valdomiro scoring the goals. There was the potential for things to become embarrassing but the flow of the game shifted considerably during the closing half an hour with Dougan and Terry Conroy getting two goals back, the Irish going close another couple of times and Pat Jennings saving a last-minute penalty that would have given Paulo Cesar his hat-trick.
Afterwards, both sides headed to the Gresham Hotel for a crowded reception. By then the Brazilians had earned their $500, the Irish their place in the history books.
How They Lined Out
Shamrock Rovers XI: Pat Jennings (Tottenham), Tommy Craig (Newcastle Utd), Paddy Mulligan (Crystal Palace), Alan Hunter (Ipswich), Tommy Carroll (Birmingham City), John Giles (Leeds Utd), Mick Martin (Manchester Utd), Martin O'Neill (Nottingham Forest), Terry Conroy (Stoke City), Derek Dougan (Wolves), Don Givens (QPR). Subs: Liam O'Kane (Nottingham Forest) and Bryan Hamilton (Ipswich) for Carroll and Givens (66 mins); Miah Dennehy (Nottingham Forest) for Conroy (88 mins).
Brazil: Leao, Ze Maria, Luiz Pereira, Piazza, Marco Antonio, Paulo Cesar, Clodoaldo, Rivelino, Valdomiro, Jairzinho, Dirceu.
KOH
He Hardly states he wasn't picked because he was a Catholic.
We have had many many many catholics in our Northern Ireland team and still do. It has always been a non-issue. If the players play their hearts out for us, we appreciate them for it, no matter what their background might be.
Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill to name but two, are legends and will always be appreciated by our support and association.
Not what was said. Did you even read the article? His willingness for the fixture to go ahead cost him his international career.
KOH
He hadn't been in an NI squad for half a dozen games BEFORE the Brazil match. He was 35.
Now -I don't like the petty tack Harry Cavan took in relation to this game but it's a fact that Terry Neill had stopped picking Dougan for NI some time before it ever happened.
As others have pointed out, the facts simply don't bear this out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Before Dalymount, Dougan had been dropped for every one of NI's previous five games. Of these, they had won three, drawn one and lost just one. In the process, the team scored eight goals.
Dougan, a centre forward, had however played in the previous five NI games prior to that. In those games, they had won one (1-0), drawn one (0-0) and lost three. During these five games, they scored just once - a goal-mouth scramble by their centre-half at a corner.
In fact, for all his exploits in club football, Dougan scored just four times in his last 33 games for NI - two versus Cyprus, one v Israel and one v Turkey, all of whom were "minnows" of the international scene in those days. Indeed, Dougan failed to score completely in his last 10 games for NI.
Not only that, but Dougan was 35 years and six months old at the time of the Brazil game. In the games just prior to, and after, the Brazil game, he was replaced in the NI team by Sammy Morgan, a young centre forward prospect at Aston Villa and/or Trevor Anderson - A Manchester United youngster billed (inevitably) as "the next George Best". Between them, they scored four of NI's eight goals during the period Dougan was dropped and although neither player went on to fulfil his early potential, they both had a reasonable career in the game, with Morgan acquiring 18 caps and Anderson 22 caps.
Additionally, Dougan was one of seven NI players who appeared in that game - Jennings, Craig, O'Kane, Hamilton, Hunter and O'Neill were the others. Every one of them was picked for NI during their following matches, with three of them going on to captain their country and one of them (Hamilton) becoming Manager. During this period Harry Cavan, the man blamed by Dougan for being "dropped", continued to be IFA President.
You where calling the IFA Bigots, what else am I supposed to think with that remark?Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
The game was in Lansdowne. And while you might be able to predict the future it was in Cavan's interest that there wouldnt be a united Ireland team at the time. Dougan was still banging in the goals for Wolves during this time.
The fact that Cavan didnt want the game to be played at all shows him in his true light.
KOH
So you concede and acknowledge that, regardless of his form at Wolves, he hadn't been playing for NI for some time before the Brazil game?Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
I have already stated in another post (#9) why it seems highly unlikely that the Brazil game "cost him his international career" (it was already over)Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
However, I have also read the article (written 31 years after the event, btw) and it is littered with mistakes which would have been obvious to anyone with a reaonable knowledge of Irish international football:
1. Tommy Craig was a red haired Scottish midfielder who played for Newcastle for a period, whereas the right back in this game was Dave Craig - a dark haired full back who played over four hundred times for Newcastle (his only League club) during a 15 year career. He also played 25 times for NI, a figure which undoubtedly have been more had it not been for injury and the emergence of Pat Rice at full back.
2. Hunter's first name is spelled "Allan".
3. Derek Dougan was not "skipper" of NI at the time - he wasn't even in the team. In fact, although I can't find the exact record, he can only have been captain for a handful of his 43 caps, since throughout his entire NI career, the captain was first Danny Blanchflower (1949-62, 56 caps), then Terry Neill (1961-73, 59 caps). Not only that, but in their absence from the team, the role normally fell to Dave Clements or Bryan Hamilton. (All four went on to manage NI, btw).
4. Mick Martin was not the youngest player in the Rovers team - Martin O'Neill is nearly a year younger.
5. "After it, I probably had a couple of my best years at Wolves..." It's possible, I suppose. Again, however, the facts do not bear this out. In the season following (1973-74), Dougan started 30 League games (of 42), scoring 10 times, which is reasonable enough for a 36 year old, but hardly exceptional compared e.g. with season 1971-72, cited by Wolves fans in all the Obituaries as his peak, when they got to the UEFA Cup Final and he was top scorer.
And in season 1974-75, Dougan started just 3 League games, plus 3 as substitute, scoring once.
After this, he then dropped out of League football entirely, aged 37, to become player-manager at Kettering Town.
There is, however, one interesting nugget in that article which is often conveniently overlooked. Namely, whilst everyone slates the IFA for opposing the game, few people point to Liam Tuouy's comment that the FAI were also somewhat hostile.
Still, that wouldn't quite fit in with the stereotype of the IFA as being the big, bad bigots in this whole affair...:eek:
Calm down there old man. My original post was replying to steve bruce. Apologies if I dont know the dates of births of some players that played in the 70s:eek:
KOH
Quite correct, the game was at Lansdowne, not Dalymount (my mistake). However, as I pointed out in post #13, Dougan was hardly "banging in the goals" for Wolves at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
And what light does the following comment show the FAI in:
"Others, including the team's manager, Liam Tuohy, feel opposition would have come from officials at both associations who feared the implications of a merger"
The facts are simple:
1. Whatever people in the IFA felt about his involvement in this game, Dougan's international career was NOT ended due to this, since he had already ceased to be a member of the international team and was in his mid-30's and at the fag-end of his club career.
2. The IFA were opposed to this game, since they felt that it was a threat to their independence as a separate Association. The FAI were almost certainly similarly opposed. This is entirely natural, since turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
3. Neither you nor anyone else has produced the slightest evidence to support your claims, especially as regards the so-called "sectarian" element. By contrast, I and others have produced hard facts to refute them.
The underlined is not a fact. The fact that the IFA were opposed to this game had nothing with a threat to their independence. Do you honestly believe that the two associations would become one the next day or even the next decade the way things were?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Then again maybe you could cos you can see the future.
KOH
In danger of drawing this off-topic but anyone who attempts to defend Harry Cavan as an individual, particularly his actions in relation to Derry City or Dougan, deserves zero respect.
You can complain all you want but Dougan consistently stated he was warned he would never play again for Norn Ireland if he organised the game and he never did play again. In that respect his age or form was irrelevant, its the threat that counts.
As for quoting the Catholics who played in the game and went on to play for NI, again irrelevant as Dougan was targeted as one of the organisers of the game.
Incidentally, the recent book on Fifa corruption (Foul) also paints a less than honorable picture of Mr. Cavan and how he arrived at his substantial wealth.
It is highly likely that it was the fear of a united Irish football association and the resulting loss of the (alleged) backhanders that he received that drove Cavan to protect his fiefdom at the expense of persecution Dougan and Derry City (both ultimately related to All Ireland football issues). But is this any better than being a plain bigot?!
I'll calm down when you stop making ignorant, false and prejudiced allegations about my team.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
And if you don't know the dates of birth of 1970's players that's OK, since I don't carry that sort of information around in my head either. However, were I a journalist like Mr. Malone, being paid to write for a National newspaper, I'd hope, following a quick Google, at least to get the basic facts right.
Anyhow, whatever the minor details, have you any comments on the posts which clearly demonstrate that Dougan's international career was NOT ended
by his involvement in this Brazil game, or that the IFA was not the only Association with concerns about the game?
Or do you just prefer to ignore these, since it doesn't fit with your prejudices?
"In my opinion" is a saying you would want to get familiar with. Read ORA's summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Another tip for the future: if you dont agree with someone you dont have to call them ignorant. Unless you want to go back to ourweecountry.bigot.uk.
KOH
What you emboldened (not underlined) was not cited by me as a "fact". However, Liam Tuohy would be in a position to venture an opinion, and the FAI would have an obvious motive for opposing a merger, so that is why I believe that it is "almost certainly" correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
As for this game in itself leading to the end of the IFA's independence, nowhere did I say that it would happen "the next day or even the next decade".
However, it is hardly surprising that they and the FAI should be suspicious of any development which might begin to call their separate identities into question, especially at a time when political tensions were at boiling point in Northern Ireland.
All of which comes from my ability to see into the past, not the future.
Speaking of which, are you going to withdraw your allegation that the Brazil game "cost" Dougan his international career, or the notion that he was still good enough to go on "banging them in" for Wolves in the following seasons?
Or do you prefer to wriggle and obfuscate?