A mature debate on abortion

As requested

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Originally Posted by jebus

So personal civil liberties hold no sway in this discussion? I think 'it's a womans body she can't be told what to do' is the main argument to be honest

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Well no i cant agree with that we all ready have plenty of laws that infringe on civil liberties , If a woman wants to sell sex she cant , If she wants to inject heroin she cant just because it happens doesn’t mean it should be legalized .( same laws apply to men by the way ).

I don’t want to swing this off the topic of this case but what about the fathers they would have no rights to the unborn baby if abortion was legal the woman may choose just to abort there baby .

I think there are certain cases (as in this one) where it’s acceptable but I feel as a general rule people that don’t want kids should take care not to get pregnant. I feel Free contraception to all , proper sex education and creating a society where women that felt alone ,scared and isolated where properly supported would be a far better idea than legalizing abortion

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Originally Posted by anto1208

I feel Free contraception to all , proper sex education and creating a society where women that felt alone ,scared and isolated where properly supported would be a far better idea than legalizing abortion

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Contraception doesn't always work. Also you can have some circumstances that transpire after someone gets pregnant.
Those measures along with legalised abortion would be welcome.

Agree with my communist friend.

We definitely need a more mature/open attitude to contraception and sex ed.

I think the current nod and wink situation is farcical.

In my experience women who have abortions are generally traumatised about it, so its not an easy decision to make (and most still maintain they made the right decision overall). And all the huff and puff on this forum won't change that its a horrible situation where there are no winners, whatver the decision.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Contraception doesn't always work. Also you can have some circumstances that transpire after someone gets pregnant.

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In fairness, those are choices. Abstinence (and i'm an atheist so don't start on me with the catholic jibes) is the safest contraception, especially in the second scenario you pose, if you want an abortion because your relationship broke up, perhaps you shouldn't have been having sex.

I'm not abstinent but then I'm in a four year relationship and choose to take responsibility should nature take its course. Mind you, I would be for choice in this matter, I just think that the majority of the time, its bad choices leading to hard choices.

Is the morning after pill just a different means of abortion. It could be argued that contraception is a form of abortion.

IMO we should acknowledge that women will travel abroad for abortion so should legalise here (we can set a time limit). I can't see how any woman would choose abortion as anything other than a last resort.

Suggestions such as allowing when raped, threat or suicide & any other similar examples are just ways of fooling ourselves.

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Originally Posted by pete

Is the morning after pill just a different means of abortion. It could be argued that contraception is a form of abortion.

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no, the idea behind them is that fertilisation/conception never occurs, so you're not aborting anything.

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IMO we should acknowledge that women will travel abroad for abortion so should legalise here (we can set a time limit). I can't see how any woman would choose abortion as anything other than a last resort.

Suggestions such as allowing when raped, threat or suicide & any other similar examples are just ways of fooling ourselves.

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there definitely needs to be a solid stance on this issue, not the half-and-half measure we have at the moment, and in this day and age we know there really is only one possible stance. the last referendum delayed the inevitable but left us in the lurch with all these ifs, buts and kind ofs.

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Originally Posted by pete

It could be argued that contraception is a form of abortion.

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This is the kind of absurdity that makes mature debates on this subject so difficult in this country.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

there definitely needs to be a solid stance on this issue, not the half-and-half measure we have at the moment, and in this day and age we know there really is only one possible stance. the last referendum delayed the inevitable but left us in the lurch with all these ifs, buts and kind ofs.

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Agree with this - in this day and age, there is only one result, and it is that abortion will be legalised, eventually.

It may be just for convenience sake, but that is what people want - convenience. I hope it is sooner rather than later. The idea that all those girls going to England are at least not having abortions here, so that makes it ok, and the issue doesnt even exist, is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by pete

Is the morning after pill just a different means of abortion. It could be argued that contraception is a form of abortion.

IMO we should acknowledge that women will travel abroad for abortion so should legalise here (we can set a time limit). I can't see how any woman would choose abortion as anything other than a last resort.

Suggestions such as allowing when raped, threat or suicide & any other similar examples are just ways of fooling ourselves.

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But how do you set a time limit do you say one month when some women don t find out untill they are 3 or 4 months pregnant . A friend of mine was 8 months pregnant before she found out ( thats not a typo 8 months and i coudlnt tell then even ) another was 5 months it is uncommon but not impossible for a woman to continue having periods and not showing etc .

So do you set the limit then force the others to have a baby if they dont find out in time ? surely thats against the civil liberties thing again

What about the limit when is a featus a baby , didnt they reduce the limit in the UK recently after a baby born a week below the legal limit and survived ?



Personally im against it its not a religous thing its a i dont like babies being murdered kind of thing

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

no, the idea behind them is that fertilisation/conception never occurs, so you're not aborting anything.

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Open to correction on this but I understand that the morning after pill works after fertilisation.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

Open to correction on this but I understand that the morning after pill works after fertilisation.

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it works in combination, like most contraception methods. As a fail safe, if the egg is fertilised, the zygote won't get a chance to grow beyond one cell as the lining of the womb is dry and "hostile" to it. in essence, the zygote is at this point like a loaded gun, with no trigger.

Interesting little story from the hugely popular "Freakanomics" book. I'll do my best to paraphrase.

In the 90s, crime started going down in many major American cities. The rate of crime reduction took everyone for surprise as people had been predicting the population explosion would lead to poverty and crime.
Through a convoluted series of deductions, the author quite logically pins the reduction to one possible cause - freedom to abort. The stats/economic theory when applied to social issues showed that kids raised in difficult circumstances commited the most crimes, and it was these kids that were, most often, being aborted. Cold, hard and refreshingly lacking in any moral stipulations, the author simply puts it out there that statistically speaking, legalised abortions were a good thing for society in the face of crime.

Its a very good book, by the way, this little abortion anecdote is just one chapter.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

But how do you set a time limit do you say one month when some women don t find out until they are 3 or 4 months pregnant

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Yes, I aware of that & know someone who did not she was pregnant until had miscarraige.

You have to have a limit as clearly a child does not exist after one day (if you oppose that you may as well oppose bacteria being killed) whereas say after 8 months its very clearly a child. TBH i do not know where the limit should be as I am not a medical expert.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Personally im against it its not a religous thing its a i dont like babies being murdered kind of thing

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Thread locked. had a feeling we couldn't have a mature debate. Well done to pete on the condoms=abortion line too :rolleyes: