When did your history begin?

[This is a genuine query, btw, not a wind-up or an attempt to provoke a row]

Another thread ("And you thought Stan had it Bad"), where a couple of posters debated the history of the Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic/Slovakia teams and the "heritage" passed down from before the Velvet Revolution, caused me to wonder: at what stage do ROI fans consider their history begins?

Is it 1880, when the Irish Football Association was founded? Or is it 1921, with the setting up of the Football Association of the Irish Free State?

I must say that as an NI fan, the thought has never ever crossed my mind that our team "began" following partition. In fact, I'm just old enough to remember games at Windsor (early 70's) where "C'mon Ireland" was occasionally shouted, or "Ireland" was used in songs where "Northern Ireland" wouldn't scan (the use of "Ulster" instead is a recent development).
In fact, I think it may have been as late as 1970 (?) when the IFA stopped using "Ireland" as the official team name in British Championship matches, having been instructed two decades earlier by FIFA that for World Cup and European Championship matches, they must be "Northern Ireland" (and the FAI should use "Republic of Ireland").
And no one has ever questioned our celebrating our Centenary in 1980, or our "125" two years ago (nor should they, imo).

But the position in the Republic is different. Naturally enough, you got your separate footballing identity after partition and should be proud of that. Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?) and Ireland internationals were occasionally played in Dublin (Dalymount and Lansdowne!). Plus, of course, many Southern-born players represented Ireland over the 40 years prior to partition. (Curiously, the FAI website's otherwise excellent history section refers to the FAIFS team as "Ireland" as though the IFA's team didn't exist e.g. "1930s Ireland's first World Cup campaign in 1934 was a short-lived event, as a 4-4 draw with Belgium (Paddy Moore got all four of Ireland's goals, a record to this day)" - haven't they heard of Joe Bambrick? ;) )

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But the position in the Republic is different. Naturally enough, you got your separate footballing identity after partition and should be proud of that. Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?) and Ireland internationals were occasionally played in Dublin (Dalymount and Lansdowne!). Plus, of course, many Southern-born players represented Ireland over the 40 years prior to partition. (Curiously, the FAI website's otherwise excellent history section refers to the FAIFS team as "Ireland" as though the IFA's team didn't exist e.g. "1930s Ireland's first World Cup campaign in 1934 was a short-lived event, as a 4-4 draw with Belgium (Paddy Moore got all four of Ireland's goals, a record to this day)" - haven't they heard of Joe Bambrick? ;) )

Any thoughts?

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March 21, 1926 for me (I believe it was March 21), and Don Givens tied that 4 goal record sometime in the 70s

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Nonetheless, Southern teams competed in the original Irish League and Irish Cup (Shelbourne winning the latter?)

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Just as an aside, to add to eL clubs who won IFA trophies before partition, UCD won the IFA Intermediate Cup in 1915.

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Any thoughts?

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I don't have any real thoughts on the matter. Nothing significant on an international scale happened before partition or the decades following it. By the time Northern Ireland had qualified for the WC partition had long taken place.

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Originally Posted by theworm2345

March 21, 1926 for me (I believe it was March 21), and Don Givens tied that 4 goal record sometime in the 70s

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Paddy Moore's were in a World Cup Qualifier, Givens in a Euro Qualifier.

Republic of Ireland's football history started after partition. FAI was only formed in 1921 or 1922. Our first game was as stated in 1926.

I would attribute all results before that date to the North as 90% of matches were played in Belfast under the IFA.

When the North qualified in 82 and 86, I was delighted for them (and jealous) but I had no affinity for the team. They weren't my team.

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

Republic of Ireland's football history started after partition. FAI was only formed in 1921 or 1922. Our first game was as stated in 1926.

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Hehe, looks like we finally agree on something
But with the Moore/Givens thing, if you go by most goals in a match, its even, if you go by most goals in a World Cup Qual. its Moore, Euro Qual. its Givens :)

Our history in football, in both parts of the Island, even predates the founding of the IFA in 1880. The whole shebang is tied up together. A number of developments in the world game can be traced to here. One of the most famous being the invention of the goal net by a Belfast man in 1890/91 I think his name was Dunlop. The Setanta Cup is merely the latest in a long line of cross border tournaments that dates back to shortly after partition. Many teams from Dublin participated in IFA organised tournaments prior to 1921. There is a distinct possibility that there would have been a split in the football ranks even if the political one had not occurred. The clubs in what is now the Republic being of the view , that the IFA was too greater Belfast centric in it's decision making process. ( A problem teams based West of the Bann occasionally complain about to this very day)

The island of Ireland has qualified for the World Cup in part in 1958, 1982, 1986, 1990, 1994 and 2002. And I believe that the North is on the cusp of another great era with the present team under Lawrie Sanchez. I know a lot of people down here do not rate the Irish League or indeed the Northern Ireland team, but I believe the current Northern team is one of the best that the wee North has produced and may become the first side from the six to make it to a European Championship finals next summer, and good luck to all concerned with that !

P.S. I heard of Joe Bambrick, and he scored half his tally of international goals in one single game... he ended his international career with 12 goals. Colin Clarke broke that with 13 ( Bestie only managed 9 ), David Healy has blown all previous scoring records out of the water.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

the invention of the goal net by a Belfast man in 1890/91 I think his name was Dunlop.

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Is that the same guy who invented the rubber tyre ?

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Originally Posted by theworm2345

Hehe, looks like we finally agree on something

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We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.

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Yes, but, forgetting about the Czechs for a minute, I agree that the Republic's history started post-partition, as I believe you said you do as well. Thats what we agree on (I think).

24 October 1878.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I don't have any real thoughts on the matter. Nothing significant on an international scale happened before partition or the decades following it. By the time Northern Ireland had qualified for the WC partition had long taken place.

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Except that Ireland won the last British Championship before WW1

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

We are not actually.

Northern Ireland lay claim to 'Ireland's' history (pre-partion) in the same way as the Czech Republic do, so we are still in dis-agreement.

Sorry.

This is probably unique in that The Republic is the larger state in size and population but the smaller state claims the football history.

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It can because it has the pre-partition association. The same happened in Germany upon its division and re-unification.

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Originally Posted by lopez

It can because it has the pre-partition association. The same happened in Germany upon its division and re-unification.

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I dont see the comparison that you are making.

West Germany was the larger of the two states and (I assume) ran the association, switching it from Berlin to Bonn/Frankfurt or wherever. And the history of the German Empire (as it was called then) is complex with the unification of Germany in 1870 from which was predominately a state called Prussia.

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

My biggest regret of the political division that happened in the early 90's is the break-up of that great Red Star Belgrade team.

While I acknowledge "the split" as being a massive event in the history of Irish Football I'm in no way conflicted in tracing our origin back to 1880* and I consider any results in that era to be "ours" in the broad sense.

Much like the political border I tend to consider the association split to be an administrative technicality.

*One of my favourite whooping switches for my GAA friends who ludicrously claim their code is somehow more reflective of the archaic, antique, "indigenous" game played here is to remind them that the Irish Football Association pre-dates the GAA leaving the Gaelic code adherents with zero claim on any franchise for Irish football.

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

I dont see the comparison that you are making.

West Germany was the larger of the two states and (I assume) ran the association, switching it from Berlin to Bonn/Frankfurt or wherever. And the history of the German Empire (as it was called then) is complex with the unification of Germany in 1870 from which was predominately a state called Prussia.

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

My biggest regret of the political division that happened in the early 90's is the break-up of that great Red Star Belgrade team.

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The IFA was based in Belfast in 1921, and always was beforehand. The football associations of the Yugoslavia didn't have its HQ in Zagreb nor the Czechoslovak its HQ in Bratislava.

The bulk of top level Irish football in 1921 was played in Belfast. Belfast can rightly call itself the cradle of Irish football, just as England can call itself the cradle of world football. Doesn't mean that they are now the best. But back in 1920 only Shelbourne and Bohemians and maybe one or two Dublin based British Army Regiment teams (none that I remembered were actually 'Irish' regiments like the Connaught Rangers) had ever competed in the Irish League.

The IFA received the backing of the powerful three British associations at the Liverpool conference of October 1923 which confirmed that the rightfull association in Ireland was the IFA and it that only they should pick the international team to represent Ireland. This they no longer do, but it gave them continuance in what was up until the expansion of the European Championships in 1980, the second most important tournament that the British 'national' teams would compete in.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Much like the political border I tend to consider the association split to be an administrative technicality.

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Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...:eek:

Why can't the two associations share the history? :confused:

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Why can't the two associations share the history? :confused:

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For the post-1921 period, imo there's nothing much to share, since we're talking about two separate Associations and two separate teams, therefore two separate "histories". (Notwithstanding that both Associations picked players from the other's territory from time to time in the 30-odd years following the breakaway by the FAIFS)

Regarding the pre-1921 period, as an NI (i.e. IFA) man, I see that as an integral/inseparable part of my own history.

If ROI (FAI) fans wish equally to share that history, then I can have no objection - their Southern forebears contributed to the Irish Football Association in exactly the same way as my Northern* forebears.

The whole point of my opening this thread was to find out whether present-day ROI fans feel or want "ownership" of our former joint pre-1921 history. It's not for me to say whether you should or shouldn't.


* - As it happens, on one side of my family, my Grandparents were from Tipperary and Leitrim, settling in what is now NI in the years not long before partition. But whilst I am interested in their story/origins etc, I can honestly say I don't feel any greater affinity to the ROI than I do e.g. to Scotland, from where the other side of my family originally came, some centuries previously.
Anyhow, I don't want this thread to deviate along another boring political route; I make that point merely to demonstrate where my affinities lie generally, which leads in the football context to my being neither "British" nor "Irish", but 100% "Norn Iron"!

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

My point is that 'Ireland' is probably unique in that the smaller of the two states (N.Ireland) kept the association (IFA) and the history and the larger state (Rep. of Ireland) had to form a new one.

This did not happen with the break-up of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslavakia where the dominant state took the credit for past histories and achievements.

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Relative size of the countries is irrelevant. The key here is that it was the Free State that broke away from the all-Ireland football association that existed prior to partition. Had they not done so, we would still have a single football body today - just like we do in Rugby, Cricket, Hockey...

Because the Free State broke away, it was never going to be in any position to lay claim to the history or honours prior to then, nor would it have wanted to. That's what happens when you break away - you are consciously stating that 'we're different' than the others.

I see no peculiarity in this at all, and for the me the Republic of Ireland team began in 1921.

P.S. Does the Republic of Ireland as a nation lay claim to all the parts of combined British history that involved it prior to partition e.g. wars against Spain, Portugal and France, the Royal family, Magna Carta, the Empire, Slavery etc etc ? Or does it just view itself as having started when it broke away in 1922 ?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

P.S. Does the Republic of Ireland as a nation lay claim to all the parts of combined British history that involved it prior to partition e.g. wars against Spain, Portugal and France, the Royal family, Magna Carta, the Empire, Slavery etc etc ? Or does it just view itself as having started when it broke away in 1922 ?

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Some people do actually take pride in the fact that thousands of Irishmen fought and died defending/expanding the British Empire in the Crimea, Boer War, WW1 etc. As nations our history is undeniably linked and Irish people of all walks of life contributed to building the British Empire. That is a fact. Some of the worst cnuts like Wellington and Montgomery were Irish. Although they didnt like to admit it.

We can debate this for months.

Anyway I do take your point that it was us that broke away and formed our own FA. As I said before 90% of the matches before partition were played in Belfast so it made sense. I just think that whatever the reasons it is unusual in global terms. An Irish solution I suppose.

Footballwise, the sterling jurisdiction has always been where it's at historically, and it could hold its own in the early days of the sport in the Victorian era. Soccer was a long way from being the organized sport of the people, the way it (sort of) is now, in the rest of the country pre-'21. Jesus, cricket had more claim.

And the split! This ****e about team-selection bias being the major factor smacks of half-arsed retrospective ballsology: was 1921 the International Year of It Finally Dawning on Salt-of-the-Earth People Where the Football Internationals Were Played and Where All the Players Were From or was it the climax of the War of Independence? :confused:. Enlightenment would also be welcome on why other sports, less associated with the celebrated working-class-solidarity types, have been able to work through sometimes quite intense periods in the interim of clear weighting/favouritism from one or other section of the country.

Looking back, the most depressing sight in sport in recent (early '90s) times was a crowd of FAI f*ckers singing at a crowd of IFA fans that "there's only one team in Ireland", in order that they might display their 'nationalism'. At least the crowd at the cricket World Cup with Stormont flags at one end of the ground and leprechaun hats at the other, different as they undeniably were, were shouting for the same team.

Both "international" teams on this island — and yes, given the whole FAI poaching/GFA nationality/passport 'scandal' complications it's not simply a jurisdiction matter but rather one of a de facto national nationalist team versus a de facto national unionist team — therefore, can go and have a big sheite for themselves. Neither of them represent any part of any decent Irishman that should with good conscience be shown off on a world stage.

Most people consider the history of the national team to go back to the formation of the state and the RoI national team. The 1924 Olympics were really our first game snot Italy 26. We class those as amateur Internationals but I digress.

International football wa splayed in Dublin back as far as england at Lansdowne in 1900. I think it is because the FAI actually broke away from the IFA that these games are in many ways airbrushed from our football history. Shels and Bohs etc still rightly honour the trophies they won in the years before we got independence.