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[MOD EDIT: Ok, let's have a proper discussion on the trade unions. And let's try to have it at a level higher than the below, m'kay?]
Trade unions again i hate them , i liken them to the IRA, at the time a very good idea but now adays its just an excuse for organised crime .
What idiocy. How many people have been killed by trade unions? What unions in Ireland are involved in organised crime? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
You could perhaps compare it to the numbers killed by employers because of shocking health and safety standards, and the lack of enforcement by the Government of the standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
i likened them to the IRA i didnt say they are the same ,Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
IRA had a purpose back in the day
trade unions had a purpose back in the day
IRA involved in organised crime now
Trade unions involved in protection rackets , intimidation , sabotage and all sorts of criminal activity .
I think you confusing Sein Fein & Me Fein. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
I think saying unions involved in criminal activity is a tad strong.
Like to provide any facts to back up your libelous comments?Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
Opinions arent libelousQuote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
When you work on a PRIVATE site and one day the plasterers union show up to “tell” you that they are kicking your plasterers off the site and bringing in there own guys because they control the work in this city . threaten you because you tell them it’s a private site and you ll hire who you want .
Then by a mysterious coincidence your site gets broken into that night all your plaster and render is slashed and exposed to the rain ( ie ruined but not any cement ) your machine for mixing up the plaster has wires cut in it and parts stolen but they don’t touch the much smaller much much more valuable stuff only the things connected with plastering .
You start to put 2+2 together . maybe im jumping the gun but to me if it looks like a fish and smells like a fish then it’s a fish .
they take money from there “members” they force employers to hire there guys who have to pay to get in to the union ( ie : you dont join you wont work ). They do the old mafia trick of sabotaging workplaces because the owner doesn’t “employ” them in other words a protection racket .
Thats not an opinion, its a libelous statement.Quote:
Trade unions involved in protection rackets , intimidation , sabotage and all sorts of criminal activity
By your criteria of protection racket, the State is one too.
I have seen this first hand in well known US multinational to restrict numbers of sub-contractors who come on site. You cannot work in the plant unless a union member. Employees there are extremely well paid including relevately unskilled there too & it is as far from sweat shop as you could get. It is protectionism.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
The guys protesting today might have a valid case although i suspect not & the courts have already ruled on the Intimation.
I think harder to proof unions involved in criminal activity especially in any organised manner.
Unions are there to protect their members. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Why don't you and anto just get a room and you can share your love (of hating unions) without the rest of us having to watch.
they protect there members ( members that are forced to join and forced to pay for the privilage just to work ) by excluding non members and holding employers to ransom .Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
balls to that i wont be told what i can and cant do in my own country . Why don’t you stop spreading your communist propaganda , to change this country from a capitalist state to a socialist one would destroy it .im not queing for 3 hours in the snow for a loaf of bread .:p
You can already see the problems unions have caused with the massive amount of outsourcing of jobs going on at the moment
Good. Let the scabs reap what they sew.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
Are you all there? Did you go to school or were you on the mitch all the time?Quote:
balls to that i wont be told what i can and cant do in my own country . Why don’t you stop spreading your communist propaganda , to change this country from a capitalist state to a socialist one would destroy it .im not queing for 3 hours in the snow for a loaf of bread .:p
I know I say Socialism can work wonders but I doubt we could gaurantee snow.
Its brains you want boyo. :rolleyes:Quote:
You can already see the problems unions have caused with the massive amount of outsourcing of jobs going on at the moment
See mod edit in first post.
Posts like "I hate the unions" and baseless accusations will result in permabans from the forum, since it goes against Rule One of the bloody thing. Ditto comments like BohsPartisan's in that last post. Aren't you on your last warning about that kind of childishness BohsPartisan? Don't answer that btw, or I'll ban you.
Power is a terrible thing.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
you contradict yourself i think, if you're forced to join how can you be excluded?are some people who refuse to join the union intimidated? favourable treatment/pay of union members and vice versa in the same workforce is illegal anyway.
so, are we going to discuss if unions are good, or evil? in the blue corner is pete, a staunch anti-unionist who sees unions as a hindrance, versus in the red corner bohspartisan a loyal, vehement and well respected supporter of unions....let battle commence;)
my opinion would be that love em or loathe em unions are an integral part of the workplace and a deeply woven fabric of society but are now punching above their weight in national negotiations because the considerable majority of members are in public service. not all employers are benevolent, legislation cannot solve everything, the timid worker needs a voice, but do we still really need unions and their frustrating resistance to change to what may well be the greater good??
Whats the greater good? More profit for the few, less pay for the many, poorer working conditions for the many, poorer terms of employment for the many?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Every piece of legislation that has given the workers rights, health and safety entitlements, pension entitlements has been because of pressure from the trade union movement. Even in the latest national wage agreement, the increase in the labour inspectorate wouldn't have happened without Trade Unions. Indeed, for all their blather about cost of doing business, pay was never the issue for IBEC in the negotiations - they were concerned with anti explotation measures.
Anto1208 post should be deleted - it's without the backing of facts or even the name of the union and company.
Yeah, I know I went a bit OTT in my last post but that he really is a WUM. Actually couldn't believe some of the stuff he's coming out with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
While anto may have been a bit hysterical, he has a point about certain unions in the construction industry namely, BATU, the brickies union.
They are at this stage widely despised by other construction workers for their tactics and the way they bully and intimidate not only employers but their own members, etc. They are a disgrace to the Trade Union movement.
There are numerous High Court Injunctions against them (just do a google search) where they attempt to have certain groups of workers dismissed because they choose to work on a c2 or c45. They have, allegedly, assaulted people during disputes including in two incidents (reported in small print in the media) where H&S officers were assaulted. Their members and cronies have allegedly set fire to site compounds, asked for certain direct employees to be sacked who have then themselves gone on to claim Unfair Dismissal cases, they have refused union cards to people from Eastern Europe (affectively denying them work on sites) and also people from the country or from neighbouring counties, etc, etc. They even threw out all the files and furniture from OPATSI's (another union) offices and burned them on the street outside.
Seriously do a google search on these guys. They have behaved absolutely outrageously. The National Implementation Body recently concluded a report on their activities and recommended amongst other things that their monopoly position for representing brickies be done away with.
In the construction industry you effectively have to be a union member to get work and so they have abused that wholesale.
I have witnessed at first hand other activities they have got involved in and until such time as something is done about them, people like anto and others who are forced to join unions to work on sites, will continue to view the trade union movement in the manner they do.
Oh and to top things off for those that go on about the greedy builders etc, they are taking a Supreme Court challenge to the REA a legally binding agreement that provides construction workers with rates starting off as a GO of 15.58 and a craft rate of 18.15 and that excludes travel time, wet time, country money etc, etc. Without this agreement can you imagine what the rates would be?
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y651922727.asp
coming from someone who is anti-union like you, thats a ringing endorsement.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
So what if they have high court injunctions against them? Labour law is a stich up against any union who wants to seriously protect their members.Quote:
There are numerous High Court Injunctions against them (just do a google search) where they attempt to have certain groups of workers dismissed because they choose to work on a c2 or c45.
Using the word allegedly does not negate libel. There have been a lot of lies printed about building workers in the Herag.Quote:
They have, allegedly, assaulted people during disputes including in two incidents (reported in small print in the media) where H&S officers were assaulted.
Again that word.Quote:
Their members and cronies have allegedly set fire to site compounds
The accusers have in no way an ulterior motive do they?
Subcontracting costs lives. Numerous deaths have occurred on building sites as a result of poor H&S which the builder had no liability because they only employed sub-contracters who were legally obliged to look after that themselves. Two builders were sent to jail in 1998 or 99 for picketing against poor safety regs and were vilified in the press. BATU have a lot of faults but as unions go in this country, they're one of the better ones.
When i google BATU is get... :D
Socialist Party leaflet supportsQuote:
Batu Khan, a 13th century Mongol ruler, and the founder of the Blue Horde empire...
The rest of that article is very militant too...Quote:
...militant response to the challenge thrown down by Collen Construction Ltd and the High Court.
After more googling it appears that its more of a ICTU v BATU dispute than anything else... On the otherhand could be viewed that BATU don't want any foreigners working on sites as they are not "local to the area..."
Do you see anything wrong with those demands?Quote:
We demand:
- BATU members should establish an organising committee to co-ordinate the struggle to free the three jailed bricklayers.
- Pickets to be placed on all Collen Construction sites – shut them down until the High Court injunction is lifted and the three workers are freed.
- For a campaign of action to force the replacement of the sub-contractors with trade union labour
- For a united campaign by all construction unions to recruit non-union Irish and migrant building workers. Fight the "race to the bottom".
What is wrong with workers wanting direct employment? With them wanting to pay PAYE and PRSI so they can have their full social welfare entitlements when they are laid off, as happens from time to time in the building industry?